Template:Did you know nominations/Josh White (racing driver)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:56, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Josh White (racing driver)[edit]

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  • ... that Josh White is the first U.S. Marine to compete in a NASCAR national series race?
  • ALT1 (as modified in prep): ... that Josh White is the first U.S. Marine to compete in a NASCAR national series race since 1966?

Moved to mainspace by ZappaOMati (talk). Self-nominated at 01:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC).

  • Article is new enough (moved into main space on 25 October, nominated 26 October), and long enough (3030 characters). Could you find different word for "joyride" in the first para under "Racing career", as that has criminal and therefore negative connotations. Other than that it is neutrally worded, uses in-line citations, and has no copyright violations. The hook is correctly formatted, is short enough (84 characters), and is interesting. Ref3 supports the hook but needs to be added to the end of the appropriate sentence rather than just at the end of the paragraph please. QPQ is needed. It is otherwise looking good. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 18:29, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the corrections and the QPQ, this is now good to go, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 12:03, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but was wondering what are the sources for the information in the charts? Yoninah (talk) 00:18, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: Typically, those aren't provided directly in the tables themselves (it's a pretty accepted thing among NASCAR editors), but if you would prefer them anyway, I have added them. Zappa24Mati 04:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
  • And just a comment/request: I'd prefer getting this out on November 10th since that's the 241st birthday of the Marine Corps. Zappa24Mati 06:13, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the cites. Restoring tick per Gaia Octavia Agrippa's review. Yoninah (talk) 11:19, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
  • I have just pulled this from Prep 1, where nominator ZappaOMati had modified the hook by adding the words "since 1966" to it. Apparently new facts have arisen that call into question that White was the first (Larry Frank is the new "first"); the article has been modified accordingly. When I took a look at the original source about White's "first", which has shown itself to be flawed, I discovered that it was a press release from the racing team sponsoring White, hardly a reliable secondary source for NASCAR history where Marines are concerned, especially since they appear to be wrong in this case. I think this new hook needs a proper review, along with its sources. I'll be posting a note on the DYK talk page so this gets more eyeballs; it may be possible that a proper review can be done and any issues cleared up in time to manage the special occasion request. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:03, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to check the revised ALT1; the concerns with the sourcing noted above should be taken into consideration. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:40, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I have serious doubts that this hook is viable. The claim of "first Marine" in a NASCAR national series (comprising the Sprint Cup Series, Xfinity Series, and Camping World Truck Series) is made in a press release from White's sponsors, though it also appears in White's appeal for funding support at GoFundMe and in web sources independent of White [1] [2] [3] including Fox Sports and the Portsmouth Daily Times which should do fact checking. The problem is, of course, that we know they are all wrong, and all seem likely to be relying on White as a source. The current hook (ALT1 modified) is a violation of WP:OR / WP:SYNTH. It reads "the first Marine to compete in a NASCAR national series event[4] since Larry Frank[9] in 1966.[10]" but reference 4 establishes White raced and claim he was first, 9 established Frank raced but does not mention White, and 10 supports Frank finished racing in 1966. Claiming that White was the first since 1966 would need a reference to support it, and none is provided, nor have I been able to find one. Claiming it based on these references is an assumption and OR / SYNTH of what we know. I cannot approved the present modified version of ALT1 without additional sources which actually support it – none of these sources cover the possibility of a Marine / ex-Marine driver since 1966 which White and his team missed (as they missed Frank).
  • Though I know the White sources refer to NASCAR national series, White races / raced in the Camping World Truck Series which began in the mid-1990s and Frank raced in what is now the Sprint Cup Series, so it is possible that White is the first Marine to compete in the Truck Series (a narrower claim), but again a source would be needed to support it. If an alternative hook on that basis cannot be sourced, perhaps one on the support White received from veterans organisation Driven2Honor, or his interest in racing coming from driving trucks as an 8 year old? I really think that a new hook is likely to be needed if this nomination is to move forward.
  • Other aspects of the review: The QPQ review claimed here did not mention any copyvio check by either editor, though an Earwig check gives a remarkable 0% and the Güney Waterfall article appeared on the main page without any questions being raised. This article on White also raises no issues with an Earwig check at 4.8% and only common phrases like the name of the truck series, his rank, and where he attended boot camp being highlighted. user:Gaia Octavia Agrippa has already noted that length and newness issues are fine, as is hook format, about which I concur. GOA also approved the QPQ review and while it is incomplete, it did not miss a copyvio problem so I am inclined to defer to GAO's acceptance of it. The article is neutral and policy-compliant as far I see except for the OR issue around Larry Frank which needs to be corrected.
  • ZappaOMati, I concur with BlueMoonset that this needed to be pulled from prep. The modified ALT1 is not supported by the sources and the article's coverage of it is not policy compliant. To claim White is the first in the Truck Series or first in a NASCAR national series since Frank requires a source that says so and is not contradicted by known facts established by other reliable sources. If such cannot be provided, it will be necessary to suggest a new hook or for the nomination to fail. EdChem (talk) 00:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
@EdChem: Looking through the article again, I suppose just writing a hook about him being a Marine and a driver should be interesting enough, regardless of whether or not he's "the first". As such, here's my alts:
@ZappaOMati: The article states that "becoming the first Marine to compete in a NASCAR national series event[4] since Larry Frank[9] in 1966.[10]" can't be left as is, as it is not policy compliant. Maybe something like "and was reported to be the first Marine to compete in a NASCAR national series event.[4] However, ex-Marine Larry Frank drove in the NASCAR Grand National (now the Sprint Cup Series) between 1956 and 1966.[9][10]" This is just a suggested wording. I also wonder if the generic link [[NASCAR]] in the hooks might be better as [[Camping World Truck Series|NASCAR]] – what do you think? EdChem (talk) 02:58, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
@EdChem: It's a little better, I've implemented it for now until I figure out a better solution. I'm a little iffy on changing NASCAR to [[Camping World Truck Series|NASCAR]] since there's three different series, though. Maybe we can add both NASCAR and the series name? It'll take up some characters, but it'd be more factually correct since the CWTS isn't NASCAR itself. Zappa24Mati 03:05, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
@ZappaOMati: I have made the necessary tweak to the article for ALT3 to be supported. I am comfortable just using "NASCAR" in light of ZappaOmati's preference, as White is a NASCAR driver. I am comfortable with the promoter choosing between ALTs 2 and 3.
ALT2 and ALT3 are ready and supported by sources, promoter may choose between them. I'd probably choose ALT2 as closer to the nominator's original intent. EdChem (talk) 03:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
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