Template:Did you know nominations/Kai-Tai Fang
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:31, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
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Kai-Tai Fang[edit]
Professor Pao-Lu Hsu
Tsingtao Beer
- ... that the statistician Kai-Tai Fang's dissertation was written in two weeks under the supervision of Professor Pao-Lu Hsu (pictured) but not published for nineteen years—because of the Cultural Revolution?
- ALT1: ... that Kai-Tai Fang promoted statistically designed experiments to improve Tsingtao Beer (pictured) during the Cultural Revolution?
Created by 162.250.169.162 (talk). Self nominated at 12:25, 15 September 2016 (UTC).
- He didn't "promote statistically designed experiments", he designed experiments, though as a leading statistician he was also in a position to encourage others to do so:
- ALT2: ... that the statistician Kai-Tai Fang designed experiments to improve Tsingtao Beer (pictured) during the Cultural Revolution? Quote: "When did you learn orthogonal design and start conducting experiments with this method? ... In 1972 I had the opportunity to go to the Tsingdao Beer Factory and other factories. I supervised the engineers there to apply orthogonal design to industrial experiements." [1]
- EEng 17:24, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Wait, I think this is hookier:
- ALT3 ... that Kai-Tai Fang used statistics to improve Tsingtao Beer (pictured) during the Cultural Revolution? See ALT2 quote
- EEng 20:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- ALT4 ... that Kai-Tai Fang used "orthogonal design" to improve Tsingtao Beer (pictured) during the Cultural Revolution? See ALT2 quote EEng 20:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Alt3 and Alt4 would require original research for the hook, because "orthogonal design" is undefined in the reference given. (A glossing footnote gives some references to recent leading books on different types of orthogonal designs, as a help to the reader. Aloke Dey and Hedayat Federer and a third author are other books on orthogonal [fractional factorial] experiments.) Another comment is that the interview shows that Professor Fang's English needs proof-reading and non-statisticians should be careful about using his phrasing without checking that it is standard English: For example "used orthogonal design" is non-standard English. Third, orthogonality does not exist for designs for response-surface methodology, which use for example weaker notions like "rotatability". Given the industrial application (and likely response-surface type methods) it is OR to try to guess what is meant by "orthogonality". A relatively recent Handbook of Statistics has a chapter on uniform designs, which likely has some history and defintions. 162.250.169.162 (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 162.250.169.162 (talk) 20:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 20:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well, as luck would have it I have a degree in statistics so we're well armed in that direction. However, I've unlinked orthogonal design to make it an undefined mystery to intrigue the beer-drinking reader. Back on A3, it's by no means inappropriate SYNTH to note that this statistician was employing statistics. EEng 22:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- 162.250.169.162 (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Well, as luck would have it I have a degree in statistics so we're well armed in that direction. However, I've unlinked orthogonal design to make it an undefined mystery to intrigue the beer-drinking reader. Back on A3, it's by no means inappropriate SYNTH to note that this statistician was employing statistics. EEng 22:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just as an aside here. I think the beer hook, however it gets worked out, is the most hooky. — Maile (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Why?
- I would prefer that we use the first hook, which indicates the importance of the Cultural Revolution by noting one effect of it on a Chinese academic. Hsu is very famous mathematical statistician, and having a DYK mentioning two Chinese academics would be refreshing.
- As noted above statistics had been applied to beer since Gossett ("Student") of Guiness, so the beer hooks really don't explain why Fang's work was interesting. It would be useful for somebody to search for more reliable sources about Fang and beer, e.g., to explain in the article what was meant by "orthogonal design". Also, the beer advising does not give insight into the Cultural Revolution. 162.250.169.162 (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- A hook is a means to an end, not the end itself. The hook's job is to intrigue the reader enough that he clicks on the article, where if we're lucky he'll learn something about the Cultural Revolution. Beer will do that well (and for those if us who know staristics and enjoy it, the fact that beer-history repeats itself is a draw as well.) EEng 09:09, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- To answer the "why" I prefer the beer hook, is from a non-Chinese point of view, the concept that anything was put on the back shelf during the Cultural Revolution is more of a given than something that will grab the reader in. This may be incredibly fascinating to anyone of mainland China's culture, or a student of that period, but it really isn't an attention grabber for the general audience. If this becomes a lead hook, the image serves to help grab the attention of the reader. The concept of a statistician being actively employed to improve beer production is off-beat enough to make a reader want to know more. — Maile (talk) 12:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just to say it before our friend jumps in to lecture us again, as it happens beer features in one of the fun chapters (and there are many, indeed) in the history of statistics, which is part of why it's fun, for those in the know, to see it pop up again here. See William_Sealy_Gosset. EEng 06:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- I am sorry if you took my tone as lecturing. Our discussion had resulted in removing the OR-disambiguation of "orthogonal design" from one of the hooks, which seemed like progress. Now, like Solomon Lefschetz, the article's DYK nomination has two working hooks.
- So does this complete the review? Is one of the hooks ready to go on the DYK section of the main page? 162.250.169.162 (talk) 12:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just to say it before our friend jumps in to lecture us again, as it happens beer features in one of the fun chapters (and there are many, indeed) in the history of statistics, which is part of why it's fun, for those in the know, to see it pop up again here. See William_Sealy_Gosset. EEng 06:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- To answer the "why" I prefer the beer hook, is from a non-Chinese point of view, the concept that anything was put on the back shelf during the Cultural Revolution is more of a given than something that will grab the reader in. This may be incredibly fascinating to anyone of mainland China's culture, or a student of that period, but it really isn't an attention grabber for the general audience. If this becomes a lead hook, the image serves to help grab the attention of the reader. The concept of a statistician being actively employed to improve beer production is off-beat enough to make a reader want to know more. — Maile (talk) 12:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Complete review needed. The above was not a review, but just a discussion on the hook wording. Now it has to be checked for various criteria according to WP:DYKR. — Maile (talk) 12:13, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
for the original hook, alternatively 
for ALT4, both currently without the respective picture: Article is long enough and has been moved from Draft:on the indicated day. It is properly referenced to reliable sources. Almost none of the references are available online, therefore I could not conduct a plagiarism check. For the same reason, the original hook reference is accepted in good faith. I have checked that the assertions in both hooks do indeed occur in the article. Regarding the pictures: The Public Domain status of the picture of professor Pao-Lu Hsu is not clear to me. Besides, to picture a person that is not the subject of the promoted article might violate WP:ASTONISH. The picture license of the beer is okay but that pic does not currently occur in the article and is therefore ineligible. I also doubt that an image of a beer bottle, should we take the beer hook ALT 4, adds anything useful. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 12:00, 24 September 2016 (UTC)- It was easy to update the article with the above image of the beer, and I have done so, so the image can be used on the DYK. Thank you for the criticism, which led to an improvement of the article.
- You may wish to look again at the article. The sources for the hooks are in Loie, which is easy to read on-line. Just go to OCLC and read the preview, which shows the interview. An easier way to read the above discussion, which contains a link to the interview. 162.250.169.162 (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- I am promoting the approved original hook, in a shortened form without mentioning his supervisor, because the article does not make a direct connection between orthogonal design and the beer company; instead, it describes his orthogonal design work in a vague and collective sort of way. Instead, the article connects the beer company with design of experiments. And I am not promoting it with the image, per Pgallert's last comment. Yoninah (talk) 00:31, 29 September 2016 (UTC)