Template:Did you know nominations/Kang Woo Kyu

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

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Kang Woo-kyu[edit]

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  • ... that Kang Woo-kyu was a fighter for Korean independence during the Japanese colonial period? (92 characters) Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)

Created by Won96 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:45, 3 June 2019 (UTC).

  • @Won96: Hey, I've given a bit of polish to the hook. The article is a strong start but it needs a bit of copyediting. (I've also done some to the hook, adding a link.) I don't think I'm the right person for the job, though, since I'm not a topic expert and I don't speak Korean. While the article is new enough out of mainspace, long enough and has a good density of citations, I strongly advise you to take it to WP:GOCE and have someone with more familiarity with Korean copyedit this for you. Raymie (t • c) 18:28, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Since the above review, now over a month and a half old, the article has been moved from "Kang Woo Kyu" to "Kang Woo-kyu" (I've just adjusted the template accordingly; it should not itself be moved!), but it was never submitted to the Guild of Copy Editors (at WP:GOCER) and has since been tagged as needing a copyedit. It cannot be approved at DYK without that copyedit, so I strongly suggest that it be submitted there at once. I have pinged Won96's talk page; hopefully they will see this, as they haven't edited on Wikipedia for about six weeks, since before the copyedit tag was added to the article. (Note: requests at GOCE average about three weeks to get done; articles tagged by others typically take four to five months to be selected and completed.) Best of luck! BlueMoonset (talk) 01:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Guild of Copy Editors have finished their copy edit. Needs another look and review. -- Thats Just Great (talk) 17:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
I can see that this is much improved, but I think it still needs some work, and probably from someone who can read the Korean sources. The article creator User:Won96 has not edited since mid June 2019, so may not be around to help. Another Korean editor has also contributed to the article, so I will ping them too, in case they can help. @Byeori Kim:
Eg, in the Early life section, "Kang was born in Deokcheon, Pyeongan-do, Joseon. He spent his childhood in Jinju, Gyeongsang Province and Miryang, Gyeongsang-do. Kang studied Korean medicine from a young age after returning home from Deokcheon, Pyeongan-do." - should that be returning home to Deokcheon? Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense.
And another example, "he moved to Hongwon, Hamkyong-do, where he served as a Korean medicine doctor while teaching children Neo-Confucianism. ... Kang was mainly engaged in commerce in Hongwon, reportedly going to Hongwon for a large sum of money when he took the initiative. He ran a general merchandise store with his son Jung Geon on Nammun Street in the center of Hongwon. The store mainly sold paint, cigarette stands, and cotton seals. At the same time, he lent the traders money at low interest."
So, he was a doctor, he taught children, and he was engaged in commerce - but mainly engaged? And what does "reportedly going to Hongwon for a large sum of money when he took the initiative" mean? What are cigarette stands and cotton seals?
If it comes to approving a hook, I think it's more interesting that he tried to assassinate a Japanese governor of Korea, or that he worked for Korean independence from China and Russia, than just saying he was a Korean independence fighter. RebeccaGreen (talk) 18:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Also pinging Bobbychan193 as they have been involved in editing the article recently. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:53, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Unfortunately, I can't read Korean, so I can't be of much help here. Although I've already done a copy edit of the article, let me know if any other parts (especially newly written parts) need copy editing. Bobbychan193 (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
I can sense... they are students (March-June matches with Korean schools (K-12 or univ) semester, stopped contribs altogether when the semester was done, DYK) of... probably Piotrus? If I am correct... I can take over the stuff, or you can take care of the stuff. — regards, Revi 01:57, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes. As usual, unless they take another of my wiki class this semester, the odds of them coming back to this are slim. Feel free to fail this. I always stress to them they have to finish the job, and it is in their own interest (as in, they could say during the job interview they got stuff on Wikipedia's front page). If they don't care or are unable to follow this up, there's little we can do. PS. Of course, if someone wants to rescue it, that's awesome, and thanks! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:26, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Allow me few hours (or till Thursday when Chuseok starts); I was typing a bunch of texts and then my kernel panicked (Unix/Linux version of Blue Screen) at the wall of texts, so I need to type them from scratch again, and that kernel panic panicked me as well :P — regards, Revi 05:02, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
RebeccaGreen, meanwhile... (I almost finished writing this stuff yesterday but then... my mac's kernel crashed so I am re-writing those)

Eg, in the Early life section, "Kang was born in Deokcheon, Pyeongan-do, Joseon. He spent his childhood in Jinju, Gyeongsang Province and Miryang, Gyeongsang-do. Kang studied Korean medicine from a young age after returning home from Deokcheon, Pyeongan-do." - should that be returning home to Deokcheon? Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense.

You are correct here.

And another example, "he moved to Hongwon, Hamkyong-do, where he served as a Korean medicine doctor while teaching children Neo-Confucianism. ... Kang was mainly engaged in commerce in Hongwon, reportedly going to Hongwon for a large sum of money when he took the initiative. He ran a general merchandise store with his son Jung Geon on Nammun Street in the center of Hongwon. The store mainly sold paint, cigarette stands, and cotton seals. At the same time, he lent the traders money at low interest."
So, he was a doctor, he taught children, and he was engaged in commerce - but mainly engaged? And what does "reportedly going to Hongwon for a large sum of money when he took the initiative" mean? What are cigarette stands and cotton seals?

I think this is the correct course of time sequence:
  1. He moved to Hongwon due to safety blah blah.
  2. He became a Doctor, taught stuff to childrens
  3. He also ran a business (with his son) selling cigarette, and cotton stuff.
He contributed the same thing on Korean Wikipedia, and what I can infer from there is the 'Cotton seal' is (IMO) in fact 'cotton threads'. I will need to verify it with a source if possible, but I cannot find the News DongAh May 1969 edition anywhere online. I may need to dig libraries or archives.
For the money, it looks like it is meant to be "He had $$$s when he moved to Hongwon". Cigarette stands are probably meant to be "we sell cigarettes"?
For the hooks, as part of the Korean History textbook, we frequently see him on the textbook so you know much better than me about the 'interesting stuff'. (If it needs to be explicitly spelled, I am willing to take over the nominator's job of doing stuff, yeah.) — regards, Revi 00:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
-revi, thank you for this information. I have edited the 2nd paragraph in the Early life section accordingly. I hope it looks OK to you now.
I have added a new section called 'Exile', as by the end of the "Early life" section Kang was over 50!
So, in the 1st paragraph of the Exile section, it reads:
Following the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905, Kang went into exile to Manchuria Bukkando. He was deeply angered by Japanese colonial rule in 1910. At the time, he was a middle-aged man over 50. In the fall of 1910, Kang decided to seek asylum and moved members of his family to Khabarovsk. He left Yongwon-myeon, Hongwon to Dudogu, Northern Gando in the spring of 1911, where he ran a herbal medicine shop.
  • Is Bukkando in Manchuria? Would it be correct to write "Kang went into exile to Bukkando, Manchuria"?
  • Yongwon-myeon is not mentioned until now. If it is in Hongwon, and it is important to say where he was living in Hongwon, then it would probably be better to add it to the sentence "He ran a general merchandise store with his son Jung Geon on Nammun Street in the center of Hongwon." - if it fits with that. Otherwise, I think it would be clearer here just to say "He left Hongwon".
  • He moved members of his family to Khabarovsk in the fall of 1910 - did he move there himself? or did he leave Hongwon himself when he moved to Dudogu, Northern Gando the following spring? Would it be correct to say "Deciding to seek asylum, Kang moved members of his family to Khabarovsk in the fall of 1910, and then he left Hongwon to move to Dudogu, Northern Gando, in the spring of 1911"?
Note I have edited this para, see below. RebeccaGreen (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
  • In the last para of the Exile section, it says "Kang founded Guangdong Middle School". In the next paragraph (in the next section), it says "Kang handed over Kwangdong Middle School". This sounds like the same school, so it would be clearer to use the same spelling. It also mentions Guangdong University - if the name is the same in Korean, I think it would be clearer in English to spell it the same way unless there is a tradition of using different romanised spellings.
Note I have edited the school name so it has the same spelling in both mentions, but left the university name spelt as it is. RebeccaGreen (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
  • For the possible alternate hook focuses I mentioned above, I think we will need more citations, and more explicit statements. For a hook about the assassination attempt, the article says "On the day Saitō visited Korea, Kang attempted to assassinate Saitō by throwing a bomb at him. The explosion missed Saito but injured several onlookers." The second sentence is followed by a citation to 윤, 상택 (2001). 윤치호 일기 [Diary of Yoon Chi-ho]. 역사비평사. p. 131. Can that source also be used as a citation for the first sentence, ""On the day Saitō visited Korea, Kang attempted to assassinate Saitō by throwing a bomb at him."? I would presume it can, but I don't want to add a citation before checking.
For a hook about him working for Korean independence from China and Russia, we will need to add those countries' names in the text explicitly. I can do that, and then check if we need more citations for the relevant sentences.
Thanks again for taking over the nominator's job of doing this! RebeccaGreen (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Hoi, let me answer easy part right away and do the more thorough one later today.

Is Bukkando in Manchuria? Would it be correct to write "Kang went into exile to Bukkando, Manchuria"?

Bukkando is split to Buk and Kando, Kando is alternative pronounciation of Gando (Jiandao), Buk means "North" so it's effectively "North Jiandao/Gando", which is a subset of Manchuria.

Yongwon-myeon is not mentioned until now. If it is in Hongwon, and it is important to say where he was living in Hongwon, then it would probably be better to add it to the sentence "He ran a general merchandise store with his son Jung Geon on Nammun Street in the center of Hongwon." - if it fits with that. Otherwise, I think it would be clearer here just to say "He left Hongwon".

Yongwon-myeon is part of Hongwon, and I don't think it is that significant. Compressed to "Hongwon".
— regards, Revi 03:26, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you, I have changed "Manchuria Bukkando" to "northern Gando (Jiandao), Manchuria." Northern Gando was already mentioned later in the para, so it's clearer to refer to it the same way. I think we may need to clarify the events and their timing in this para, though. Perhaps:
"Following the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905, and the annexation of Korea and its colonial rule by Japan following the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1910, Kang was deeply angered. At the time, he was a middle-aged man over 50. In the fall of 1910, Kang decided to seek asylum and moved members of his family to Khabarovsk. He himself left Hongwon and went into exile in Dudogu, northern Gando (Jiandao), Manchuria, in the spring of 1911, where he ran a herbal medicine shop."
Note I have edited this para as per this suggestion. If your research shows different info, please adjust accordingly. RebeccaGreen (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
I wondered why he did not go after 1905, and waited till 1910, until I read the article about the 1905 treaty and realised that Japan imposed colonial rule in 1910. I suggest including that 1910 treaty in this sentence, because I think many other readers who are not familiar with Korean history will not understand the 1910 reference. (BTW, Khabarovsk is a very long way away. Did he really send family there, rather than to Vladivostok, which the next para says he moved to later? I guess if the source says Khabarovsk, that's what we say ....) RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
1905 Treaty took away Joseon's diplomatic sovereignty from Joseon while keeping the sovereign (I mean, the Emperor) intact (government was effectively dissolved in 1907 though), the 1910 treaty was the rubber stamp that merged two countries and the Emperor was removed from the throne. For the Khabarovsk stuff, I need to travel to National Library to see the copylink for myself of that magazine, so I can't answer it right away (probably next week). I just can't find it on the web. — regards, Revi 14:24, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
No worries, Revi, if you are able to research it in the National Library, that's great! This has been waiting a while, a little longer won't be a problem - and it does seem like an important subject that it would be good to get as correct and clear as possible. Just ping me when you have been able to follow it up :-) RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:49, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
SITREP (no need to reply, FYI only): was busy for the past week. Retrying this week. — regards, Revi 11:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Revi, RebeccaGreen, while "a little longer" isn't a problem, it has been three more weeks and this nomination has now been open for four months. It's coming time to wrap this up one way or another. If there isn't significant progress in the next seven days, it will be time to consider closing the nomination. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Hi BlueMoonset, I hadn't forgotten this, and I've been keeping an eye here and on the article. As you're aware, Revi only took on this nomination on 9 September, after it had been abandoned by a student who hadn't even submitted it to GOCE. Another editor has added some sources, from Western newspapers. I have been hoping Revi will be able to get to the National Library to check some other info, but I will re-read the article and think again about what still needs attention and what could safely be left for now. RebeccaGreen (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
RebeccaGreen, Back to topic...

In the last para of the Exile section, it says "Kang founded Guangdong Middle School". In the next paragraph (in the next section), it says "Kang handed over Kwangdong Middle School". This sounds like the same school, so it would be clearer to use the same spelling. It also mentions Guangdong University - if the name is the same in Korean, I think it would be clearer in English to spell it the same way unless there is a tradition of using different romanised spellings.

The source used @ Special:DIff/920181690 has following paragraph: 평남 덕천에서 태어난 강 의사는 1910년 경술국치 후 중국 길림성 요하현에 광동학교를 설립해 민족교육과 후학양성에 전념했다. 1919년 고국에서 3·1운동이 전개되자 만주, 노령 등지에서 만세시위를 전개하기도 했다. (Kang, born in Pyongan, after the annexation of Korea in 1910, founded Guangdong School in Jilin to foster 'national education' and future Koreans. In 1919, as 3.1 movement in the homeland expanded, he organized protest in manchuria) - which just mentions "Guangdong School", without any mention of "University". I think 'University' and 'school' point to the same entity, so it is fine to consolidate.

For the possible alternate hook focuses I mentioned above, I think we will need more citations, and more explicit statements. For a hook about the assassination attempt, the article says "On the day Saitō visited Korea, Kang attempted to assassinate Saitō by throwing a bomb at him. The explosion missed Saito but injured several onlookers." The second sentence is followed by a citation to 윤, 상택 (2001). 윤치호 일기 [Diary of Yoon Chi-ho]. 역사비평사. p. 131. Can that source also be used as a citation for the first sentence, ""On the day Saitō visited Korea, Kang attempted to assassinate Saitō by throwing a bomb at him."? I would presume it can, but I don't want to add a citation before checking.

Added one more citation.
For the hook, as discussed @ my talk page, something about smuggling the grenades into Korea or the attempt itself, whichever is fine IMO. — regards, Revi 04:04, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, Revi. I have consolidated and re-ordered a bit, as I think that some information was either out of order, or repeated. Perhaps you could read it through and see what you think? I will re-read it too.
Would you like to write some alternative hooks? If I do, I will have to leave it to another editor to check and approve them. RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Let me try...
I think I can use these two as a starting point, I guess. — regards, Revi 15:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Revi. I will tweak them a little:
This article was new enough when nominated (it had been moved to mainspace for 8 hours about 2 weeks earlier, but I think we can ignore that - it was nominated the day it was permanently moved to mainspace). It is long enough, and it has sufficient sourcing and inline citations. It has been through a GOCER, and has been further checked and tweaked by me and Revi (who reads Korean). I believe that it is neutral and as accurate as we can make it, though no doubt it could still be improved. The original nominator has no other DYK nominations, so does not need a QPQ. There are no copyvio issues. There are several hooks which could interest readers, and which are well cited in the article.
BlueMoonset, Narutolovehinata5, or others, I would like your opinion on whether I should ask for another reviewer, given the copy editing I have done on the article and tweaks to ALT1a and ALT2a, or whether I would be OK to approve this? I have not tweaked ALT0 at all. RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:12, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
As those are just minor wording tweaks and didn't introduce new hook facts, you should still be okay with regards to that. As for copyediting and other aspects, as you aren't a major contributor to the article, I don't really see what's wrong with not giving the final tick (it's actually pretty common for reviewers to edit the articles they're reviewing, although I personally don't do that). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Approving the original hook and ALT1a and ALT2a. (Thanks for clarifying that, Narutolovehinata5.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
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