Template:Did you know nominations/Le Laudi

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 10:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Le Laudi[edit]

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Created/expanded by Dr. Blofeld (talk), Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 23:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

  • New enough, barely. Definitely long enough. AGFing on copyright, due to my accessibility issues with the main source. Hook is long but within limits by safe margin. The bit about the nine movements isn't inline cited, but that's robably due to it being presented in list form, the other fact in the hook is cited and teir are citations in the text following the list, so I think we shouldn't let that hang up passing this article. Abyssal (talk) 16:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I would strongly recommend stopping the hook after "St. Francis of Assisi"; the rest is unnecessary detail. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • How do I cite the score inline? - This is a gigantic piece of music, - only to say on what text it is based seems too little:
ALT1: ... that in his symphonic oratorio Le Laudi on the Italian Canticle of the Sun, Hermann Suter praised Brother Air in a fuga and Brother Fire in a passacaglia?
ALT2: ... that Swiss composer Hermann Suter created a symphonic oratorio Le Laudi on the Italian Canticle of the Sun by St. Francis of Assisi for choir, soloists, voci di ragazzi, organ and orchestra? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Gerda, I'm advising against it. You've already said "symphonic oratorio": short and snappy is better than drowning folks in detail that will only interest a very few. Your big hook here is St. Francis, yet ALT1 trades him for the dubious interest of Brother Air and Brother Fire, while ALT2 keeps him but swaps out the originally mentioned movements for equally unnecessary minutia on the scoring. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Just suggestions, open for discussion. I think that "Brother Air" (Fratre Vento) is such a typical St. Francis wording that you don't have to name the author, + there's a link to Canticle of the Sun. The scoring is unusual and tells a lot about Suter, mentioning the choir first (not the soloists), for example. One very special thing about the piece is Suter's retrospect usage of much older musical forms, starting with Gregorian chant, why not mention some, for those who are interested in such things? The others will not click anyway ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Ah, but you're speaking from knowledge and familiarity. I'm not familiar with the writing of St. Francis, but I do recognize the name (with the "of Assisi" added in), and lots of Christians will. That's going to grab their attention. "Brother Air" didn't cause a twitch here: I have no internal connection of the phrase with the saint, or with his writing. The very fine discernments you see (mentioning "choir" before "soloists", for example, and the fuga and passacaglia) may be bread and meat for us musicians, but it causes those folks who see "St. Francis" and maybe "Swiss" to lose interest. You might even want to move St. Francis earlier to catch their attention sooner, at the cost of losing "Italian" (the comparative to "Swiss"): ... on St. Francis of Assisi's Canticle of the Sun? BlueMoonset (talk) 23:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I would strongly want Italian, because it is sung in Italian even in Germany. I would like to keep the scoring, because the contrast between the humble words and the giant forces is quite striking. Trying to follow your recommendations a bit:
ALT3: ... that based on the Italian text of St. Francis of Assisi's Canticle of the Sun, Hermann Suter composed the symphonic oratorio Le Laudi for choir, soloists, voci di ragazzi, organ and orchestra? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:01, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Additional thoughts: right now our choir's anniversary is on the German Main page:
  • Der Chor von St. Bonifatius feierte sein 150-jähriges Jubiläum mit der Uraufführung einer Missa solemnis von Colin Mawby.
They wanted it short and snappy, stopping after Uraufführung (premiere), saying that people would not understand the rest. I argued that enough people would know Beethovens's Missa solemnis, and reading "Colin Mawby", many would at least associate "international collaboration" and "English choral tradition", and those who know the name even "Westminster Cathedral", "Irish broadcast choirs", "Papal order". - Back to Suter, I don't want to devote 80% of the hook to the text. The article is about the music. I will expand it when I find the time, later tonight or tomorrow, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:45, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
  • The ALT3 hook has grammatical problems that aren't easily fixed within its structure. Here are two different versions that retain the music information yet move St. Francis up from his placement in ALT2, though not to the beginning as in ALT3. ALT4 comes in at 190 characters: it keeps Le Laudi early. ALT5 is 184 characters, though it could be 182 if "his symphonic" becomes "a symphonic"; I can't decide between "his" or "a". Both ALTs are about a third set-up, a third text, and a third music—there's no way to avoid the third about the text to retain the bounce from St. Francis.
  • both fine, I slightly prefer ALT5, for the composer working, I like "his", his possibly greatest composition, so say the sources, - I know only this one, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Reviewer needed to check above ALT hooks. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
  • The article is fine, as mentioned above; regarding the hooks, I think ALT4 is preferable. ALT5 buries the lead a bit too much (so to speak) and is not that easy to read - ALT4 is more intuitive. Prioryman (talk) 09:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
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