Template:Did you know nominations/Marcy Tigner
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:41, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
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Marcy Tigner[edit]
... that Little Marcy was made by the same company who made Charlie McCarthy?Source: Bullock, page 52.- ALT1:... that Marcy Tigner sold more than 2 million albums using her child-like voice? Source: Statesman Journal. Salem, Oregon. February 20, 1982. p. 20: "She has made 40 Christian albums for children during the past 20 years, and more than 2 million copies have been sold."
- Reviewed: Responsories (Reger)
- Comment: moved to mainspace 16:23, 4 October 2018
Created by 78.26 (talk). Self-nominated at 22:29, 9 October 2018 (UTC).
Article is new enough and long enough. Offline sources for both proposed hooks are accepted in good faith. No copyright violations were detected. QPQ provided. Honestly, ALT0 is not interesting since most people wouldn't know who McCarthy is and the way it's worded in the article doesn't make for a good hook; struck. ALT1 is better and somewhat interesting, but it might be too common. It appears that she was best known for having a puppet perform with her, and also for the fact that she had some kind of post-retirement renaissance due to vinyl collectors rediscovering her music. Perhaps hooks on those would work: they better encapsulate her career, and seem more interesting than her using a child-like voice. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:00, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Charlie McCarthy (i.e. Edgar Bergen) was one of the very most famous entertainers in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s. I don't know how to encapsulate her entire career. As a trombonist she wasn't very notable, her career consisted in using that highly unusual voice, I recommend going to YouTube and looking her up, she's easy to find. Many Christians growing up in the US during the 60s/70s (a sizable population) would recognize the hook and remember the character. Creating a hook about her "renaissance" could be seen as negative/unbalanced toward the subject. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 11:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- @78.26: True, but remember that this is not the United States Wikipedia, but the English Wikipedia, one which is intended for a global and not just a Western audience. The character might be familiar to old American Christians, but not so much everyone else. Sure, a hook doesn't need to be about famous people (in fact, one of the unofficial goals of DYK is to introduce unfamiliar subjects to general readers), but without context, the original hook just doesn't seem interesting. And I don't see how talking about her being rediscovered is negative or unbalanced; if anything, it could actually be considered positive. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding context, I'll merely disagree that the hook doesn't provide an appropriate level, while noting I've been wrong before. Regarding this being the "English Wikipedia", I'd like to note I've been around for a little bit. Regarding being rediscovered, you should read the sources. They are reliable, but make no claim to being objective. She is sought after as being one of the "creepiest" (uncanny valley) and "worst" artists both because of the voice itself and because of the material selected. Knowing both Christianity and record collectors I could write several paragraphs about why this is, but can't put it in the article because it is WP:OR of course. She is re-discovered as an object of derision. Therefore I'd avoid it. I think it highly unusual that an adult woman sold millions of records because of the child-like voice, and will try to write a more arresting hook. Something like:
- @78.26: True, but remember that this is not the United States Wikipedia, but the English Wikipedia, one which is intended for a global and not just a Western audience. The character might be familiar to old American Christians, but not so much everyone else. Sure, a hook doesn't need to be about famous people (in fact, one of the unofficial goals of DYK is to introduce unfamiliar subjects to general readers), but without context, the original hook just doesn't seem interesting. And I don't see how talking about her being rediscovered is negative or unbalanced; if anything, it could actually be considered positive. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- ALT2... that as an adult, Marcy Tigner sold more than 2 million albums using her natural child-like voice?
- ALT3... that although Christian ventriloquist Marcy Tigner ceased performing by 1990, interest in her career was rekindled that decade by record collectors?
- Perhaps one of those will be found to be of general interest. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Okay then, I'm tentatively approving ALT2 and ALT3. ALT2 is cited to a source that requires a subscription (although a free trial is available) so it is accepted in good faith, though another non-paywalled source seems to confirm it. ALT3 is my preferred hook, but neither of the sources cited seem to verify the information about her popularity among "junk-shop vinyl enthusiasts", so the final tick will be put on hold until the sourcing issue is addressed. Once this is approved, I will leave the final hook choice to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Allmusic says "embraced by a new audience of record geeks" and ties it to "Incredibly Strange Music" which was a book/CD set and series (which should have a Wikipedia article) designed for seeking weird material at thrift stores/junk shops. The Register/Guard does not mention vinyl collectors per se. World's Worst Records documents a record collector's quest for "bad art". "Vinyl Junkies: Adventures in Record Collecting" is specifically about record collecting and specifically mentions scouring thift stores on the same page that talks of Little Marcy. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:58, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Okay, this should be good to go then. Like I mentioned above, ALT3 remains my preferred hook, but I also like ALT2 and will not object if the promoter chooses it. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:31, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- Allmusic says "embraced by a new audience of record geeks" and ties it to "Incredibly Strange Music" which was a book/CD set and series (which should have a Wikipedia article) designed for seeking weird material at thrift stores/junk shops. The Register/Guard does not mention vinyl collectors per se. World's Worst Records documents a record collector's quest for "bad art". "Vinyl Junkies: Adventures in Record Collecting" is specifically about record collecting and specifically mentions scouring thift stores on the same page that talks of Little Marcy. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:58, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- Perhaps one of those will be found to be of general interest. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, folks. The ALT isn't 100% supported (did she use her voice to sell 2 million records?). We could use a plainer version of the same, but I don't want to make that unilateral a decision at this point. Vanamonde (talk) 20:58, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: I'm confused by your question (undoubtedly the problem is on my end), so apologies if this doesn't make sense. The article is plainly discusses her unusual voice which sounded like a little girl, and this unusual voice was utilized on the phonograph recordings. It wasn't the vanilla Baldwin organ accompanying her that sold the records. What information are you seeking? 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:57, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- @78.26: Apologies, it wasn't phrased very well: but really I'm being nitpicky now so as to avoid a scene at ERRORS later. I'd be fine with a hook which says "Tigner, who had a child-like voice, sold 2 million records". Or even better: Tigner, a Christian ventriloquist with a child-like voice, sold two million records". The way it's phrased at the moment, it could imply she sold two million because of her child-like voice. Vanamonde (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Except I would say that is true, and confirmed by the sources. She would not have stood out otherwise. It was the voice that sold the recordings. It was because of her voice that she started making children's records in the first place. Lots of Christian artists have made albums for children. I can't think of anyone else who sold 2 million of them. Since the sources speak repeatedly of her unusual voice, and the sources detail how the voice deeply impacted her career, and confirm the number of records sold, I'm still not sure why this is controversial. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 22:23, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- To be more clear, the hook as your propose could imply that she sold 2 million albums of piano music, or one of those mid-1980s exercize records, or that they were sold despite the voice. She sold 2 million children's records which featured her child-like voice. Oh. I think I may have just stumbled upon a mutually agreeable solution:
- Except I would say that is true, and confirmed by the sources. She would not have stood out otherwise. It was the voice that sold the recordings. It was because of her voice that she started making children's records in the first place. Lots of Christian artists have made albums for children. I can't think of anyone else who sold 2 million of them. Since the sources speak repeatedly of her unusual voice, and the sources detail how the voice deeply impacted her career, and confirm the number of records sold, I'm still not sure why this is controversial. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 22:23, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- @78.26: Apologies, it wasn't phrased very well: but really I'm being nitpicky now so as to avoid a scene at ERRORS later. I'd be fine with a hook which says "Tigner, who had a child-like voice, sold 2 million records". Or even better: Tigner, a Christian ventriloquist with a child-like voice, sold two million records". The way it's phrased at the moment, it could imply she sold two million because of her child-like voice. Vanamonde (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: I'm confused by your question (undoubtedly the problem is on my end), so apologies if this doesn't make sense. The article is plainly discusses her unusual voice which sounded like a little girl, and this unusual voice was utilized on the phonograph recordings. It wasn't the vanilla Baldwin organ accompanying her that sold the records. What information are you seeking? 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:57, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- ALT4 ...that as an adult, Marcy Tigner sold more than 2 million albums featuring her natural child-like voice?
- 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 22:31, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- @78.26: Okay, fair enough. I'm fine with this suggested modification: I also just read your note at WT:DYK. So if you wanted the original hook, you could simply add a sentence with the Worlds Worst Records source, and we could run with the hook you wanted at WT:DYK. Vanamonde (talk) 23:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)