Template:Did you know nominations/Otto Schwarz (bandleader)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 15:36, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Otto Schwarz (bandleader)

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Otto Schwarz

... that "greatly respected" travelling bandleader Otto Schwarz (pictured) and his Bavarian String Band were interned in Douglas, Isle of Man, during World War I? Source: Malcolm G. Neesam (2022) Wells & Swells, the golden age of Harrogate Spa, 1842–1923, Carnegie Publishing, Lancaster, England, pages 1024–1025. (Paraphrase: Schwarz continued to perform in Harrogate up to 4 August 1914 when the First World War was announced. On 5 August, Schwarz and his band walked to Harrogate Police station with luggage and instruments, and queued, as per government requirement, to be interned as enemy aliens. They were imprisoned, then transported to Douglas in the Isle of Man)

... ALT1: that respected travelling bandleader Otto Schwarz (pictured) and his Bavarian String Band were interned in Douglas, Isle of Man, during World War I? Storye book (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

- Reviewed: Lithophane

Created by Storye book (talk). Self-nominated at 17:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Otto Schwarz (bandleader); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Article is new enough (page history dates back to February but it was moved from user to article space on 13 March) and long enough. Sourced and neutral. Earwig detected no issue, but I am a bit concerned about the rather large quote at the end, which seems to be word-for-word an entire newspaper article; have you considered shortening it? Hook is verified in the text, save for the "greatly respected" quote, which I was going to recommend removing anyway. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:15, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Re "greatly respected" in ALT0, the point of that was to show the difference in attitude between the band's audience and the authorities, before and after the start of World War I. Before the war started, the band was popular and respected. After it started, the band was imprisoned for being German. This is what happens in wars, and no-one is to blame, but I put the quote there just to show that attitudes had changed. Therefore I have given you ALT1, without quotes, but still with the word, respected, to retain that contrast. If we leave out "respected", then the hook will look as if the band was imprisoned for a specific war crime.

I'm not sure if 'respected' necessarily gets that across, but I agree that we don't want to give the impression that he committed some sort of crime—though, the word 'interned' already does most of the heavy lifting in that respect. I don't mind ALT0; have you also considered 'famed' as a possible alternative? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

The long quote at the end is fulfilling a function in the article, and we need all of it. It is a voice from the past, showing the attitude of the time. Today we may make random assumptions about what happened to Germans in England at the start of World War I, and that quote takes us, as on a time machine, directly to that time and place. It shows us the attitude of the British people to the band, and the meek and honourable behaviour of the German band itself. We cannot interpret historical text in articles, but we can present it for the reader to interpret in their own way. We cannot shorten it, because if we do, it will not work in the same way. The journalist has gone to a lot of trouble to put his point across clearly, and you can tell that they feel strongly about the matter. The quotation is dated 1914, so there is no copyvio issue. Storye book (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Still not personally a fan, but if it's not a copyvio issue, then this would be a concern for GA rather than DYK. My other question is why the article has the bracketed 'bandleader' in the title, when there are no other 'Otto Schwarz' to distinguish. Not a requirement for the DYK, either, bus consider moving it to just the name. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. I have updated all links, including the above ALTs. I have not messed with the links above the ALTs, as I'm afraid of undoing the template somehow. No doubt a bot or admin will catch up with it in due course. The reason for the "(bandleader)" disambig was that I had misread article title Otto Schwanz, and wrongly thought that we already had an article called Otto Schwarz. I have now added a "not to be confused with" template to the top of the Otto Schwarz article. Storye book (talk) 09:30, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Aces! Everything looks about good to go. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Storye book: I too am concerned about copying the newspaper with such a long blockquote. It seems to me that the flavor of that can be conveyed with less. Before promotion I would like to ask @RoySmith: to chime in here. Bruxton (talk) 15:17, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed an extraneous citation, but beyond that, I think it's OK. It's properly cited, so there's no copyvio issue. Stylistically, having such a long quote may not be best practice, but it's not specifically a DYK problem, so it shouldn't hold up promotion. My suggestion would be to continue to discuss it on the talk page if you feel strongly about it. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Thank you, the nomination has been waiting a while and the article is well done. Bruxton (talk) 15:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, RoySmith. As you know, one of the WP guidelines is that guidelines should be used with commonsense. In this case, we have a situation where our old war propaganda showed enmity and fear between civilian Brits and Germans during World War I, and that representation over-simplifies our view of that history. For this biographical subject, the situation was not as straightforward as that. The German band needed to be protected from performing on the street during the war, in case of British civilian abuse. On the other hand, there were many civilians in Harrogate who were saddened by the situation that their local bandsmen found themselves in. This might be unexpected by our own generations, and the long paragraph makes that multi-faceted situation clear in detail. I don't believe that it can be shortened, because we would then lose the emotional content of the paragraph, which is the bit that counts. That is why it has been quoted at length. To break up the paragraph would put the reader at a distance, unable to empathise with Schwarz and his contemporaries. The journalism of those times in most mainstream newspapers was intelligent, careful and responsible (unlike some tabloids etc. of today) and the paragraph has been balanced with great care. I believe that we would lose more than we would gain by cutting it and breaking it up. To put it another way, to cut it and break it up would be to editorialise it, and we don't want to do that. Storye book (talk) 15:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)