Template:Did you know nominations/Rangers signing policy

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by — Maile (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

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Rangers signing policy[edit]

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Created by The C of E (talk). Self-nominated at 08:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC).

  • I am struggling to verify the "openly" bit. One source says the club did not knowingly sign any Catholics in this period, and another says it did not sign anyone who was a "high profile" Catholic, but neither of these equate precisely to "openly". I would suggest you just drop the word, and change the hook to "not to sign players who were Catholic" which is factually correct while allowing for the possibility that the unwritten rule was not always followed. Gatoclass (talk) 12:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
    • @Gatoclass: I have added a new source and changed the wording slightly in the article. If you drop "openly", it is a lot more definative than stating openly Catholic because "openly Catholic" affirms that Catholics may have played for the club had they kept their religion secret which does leave it open more that if you don't include it because that would defiatively say there were no Catholics whatsoever until 1989. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:31, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
The C of E, the ISBN for your new source draws a blank. Gatoclass (talk) 06:35, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
It states tht "Rangers did not sign their first high profile openly catholic player until Mo Johnston". The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:40, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gatoclass: On second thoughts, I think your proposal could work so I have removed openly presuming that you can grant a tick for it? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:47, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thanks The C of E. I have noticed another issue with the hook though, which effectively says that the policy ended in 1989, but the situation appears to have been less clear-cut, with an end to the policy suggested by Sourness in 1986 and aspects of the policy remaining in place for some years after '89. So I'm thinking a more nuanced hook might be more appropriate, though I've yet to come up with one. Gatoclass (talk) 07:15, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

@Gatoclass: The hook doesn't mention 1989. While Souness implied he wanted to sign a Catholic in 86 and a few anti-Catholic fringe allusions remained in place afterwards, the key part of the policy (which is was this article is about) was that Rangers would not sign a Catholic knowingly and that was ended in 1989. I think the current hook is a good one and I'm happy to stay with it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:22, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Huh? Yes, the hook does mention 1989, The C of E. Gatoclass (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gatoclass: Yes, but my point still remains. The article is about the signing policy, not the club culture of Rangers. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:29, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
The C of E, as I'm sure you're aware, DYK currently has a contributor with a penchant for pulling hooks, at times for inaccuracies that others might regard as minor. As I don't want to see any more hooks pulled, particularly from the main page, and I'm sure you don't either, I don't think it can do any harm to try and come up with a hook that eliminates the risk. Gatoclass (talk) 07:48, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

How about something like:

@The C of E:, that has the same issue as the original hook, that it isn't entirely clear that the policy ended in 1989 exactly. If you think my alt is too wordy, the reference to Mo Johnson could be dropped and it could just say something like "remained largely intact between the 1920s and 1980s". Gatoclass (talk) 08:54, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gatoclass: I think that would be areasonable compromise. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:17, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gatoclass: Can you add the tick please? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:51, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
  • The C of E, I don't think I can do the verification now because users are not supposed to verify their own hooks and I've had substantial input on this one. I think I'd prefer to get a second opinion on this in any case. But I will add the agreed-upon hybrid hook:
  • ALT3: ... that an unwritten policy of Rangers F.C. to not sign any player who was Catholic remained largely intact between the 1920s and 1980s? Gatoclass (talk) 09:20, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I should add that I have checked and passed this article in all respects, all it needs now is for somebody to verify the hook. Gatoclass (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
    • OK then, I agreed to that compromise on the grounds that I assumed that you would be approving it. However as you have stepped away, I think it's fair to allow the new reviewer to consider the original (which I still think is better). The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:11, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Have it your own way. Just don't come crying to me if it gets yanked after five minutes on the main page. Gatoclass (talk) 17:41, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Having hoped to round off this review, I am not happy with any of the hooks. I don't believe you can say for a fact that there was an "unwritten policy" - Where is the evidence for this policy being in existence? Each catholic player may have been rejected because of his religion without there being a "policy". So I propose ALT4. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • @Cwmhiraeth: The evidence for the existence of it in the sources. For example, in the Steen source it says "the Ibrox club operated a sectarian policy" and the Scotzine source it says "It is a well-known fact that Rangers had an anti-catholic signing policy". Of course by the very nature that it was unwritten of course there won't be any official Rangers club handbook that says "No Catholics" however you have the evidence provided by former players and officials that it did exist. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT3 (and my own ALT4). Not approving the original hook because neither "until 1989" nor "openly" is acceptable. If you accept this approval decision, the nomination can proceed. If you want to carry on arguing, someone else will have to come in to adjudicate. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
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