The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
... that the British portrait and landscape artist Thomas Holroyd painted The Dyeworks, Knaresborough(pictured)? Source: Mercer Gallery refs: HARAG 264; HARAG 309
Staithes, Whitby, North Yorkshire by Holroyd (1878)
ALT5a: ... that while his brother carried on the family photography business, Thomas Holroyd went into painting and created The Dyeworks, Knaresborough(pictured)?
ALT5b: ... that while his brother carried on the family photography business, Thomas Holroyd went into painting and later created The Dyeworks, Knaresborough(pictured)?
Comment: This article was created in userspace over seven months, then copied and pasted to mainspace on 16 November. Alternative image for ALT1 added.
Created by Storye book (talk). Self-nominated at 17:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC).
Overall: Article is new enough and long enough, well sourced and neutral. There's no copyvio and both images are OK to use. QPQ is done. I've put a "?" currently because I've assumed we would need to wait for the history to be merged before promoting - but do let me know if I'm wrong? Lajmmoore (talk) 09:00, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@Lajmmoore: Thank you for the review. The history-merge tag was apparently a misunderstanding, and it has been removed from the article. I hope that's OK now. Storye book (talk) 16:30, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Excellent! Thanks for letting me know :) Lajmmoore (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron:. Thank you. The best story would have been about the Holroyd Bequest, which Harrogate Council appears to have "lost", including Webber's gorgeous sculpture of Hercules which I spotted being reported at auction in Miami not long ago. But there's no satisfactory citation for that. One of the saddest losses from the bequest is eleven portraits of Mohawks, painted by Holroyd in Canada before 1865. So precious. But there's no citation for that loss (there is a citation to say that he painted them, but we would need a "pictured" hook for that, and they're missing, so no picture). So that leaves the rather gory tale of Holroyd's wife's death. Storye book (talk) 09:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment Could a hook be based on his will, rather than his wife's death? I personally feel a bit uncomfortable about ALT2. (FYI I think people prefer the terminology "died by" rather than "committed"). Thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 12:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that the Holroyd bequest of many artworks was formally accepted by Harrogate Corporation in 1904 but most of it is no longer publicly visible in the town? Source: various Storye book (talk) 16:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
I might just be picky, but I don't quite like either of these—ALT2a is just about his wife (is there something interesting we can say about how it affected him?) and ALT3 seems a little dull. I'm sorry about that—I'm sure there's a good hook here. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 07:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: The problem here is that all the clickbaity stuff has no citations, and it never will - and on WP we're not allowed to put facts side by side and let the reader work it out. For example, Holroyd, a married man from Harrogate, orders an overtly homoerotic marble statue from a young male art student in London, in due course that younger man turns up in Harrogate, the two men share a studio, and Holroyd's wife kills herself. The separate facts are separately clear, but there is obviously never going to be a citation that joins them up - unless some historian publishes something in the future. And as for how Holroyd reacts to his wife's death - well my guess is that when he heard the news he wandered off, whistling - but we'll never know his reaction. Suicide and male relationships were not mentioned in the very formal newspapers of those days, unless the journalists could get a specific quote from a court case or their weekly "Police and Fire" interview. Mrs Holroyd is rather strangely not mentioned on Thomas Holroyd's expensive gravestone, but we're not allowed to use photographs of gravestones as citations. Storye book (talk) 10:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
About ALT3: It may seem dull to you, but the wording is all I dare say about possible negligence or even corruption in previous incarnations of Harrogate Council. There was a phase in the 1960s when many institutions were getting rid of Victorian art because it had gone out of fashion, it had been discreetly put away, there was a good market for it in the US and on the Continent, and the art stores were quietly emptied by councillors with friends in the business who kindly offered to help with removals. So a lot of our Victorian civic art either ended up broken in skips or were privately flogged off by councillors who had access to the stores. I know of several confirmed examples of that in church and state. I have searched in the hope of finding some of the Holroyd bequest. I have found a few things, but it is possible that most of it is missing. The eleven paintings of the Mohawks by Holroyd is the saddest loss. If I had citations for what actually happened to it, it would possibly be a public scandal - but without citations, all I dare write is that rather dull ALT3. Sorry. Storye book (talk) 10:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
ALT4: ... that British artist Thomas Holroyd was raised to join his brother James in the family photography trade, but while James took photographs, young Holroyd was painting in watercolours and oils? Source: "Harrogate topics", Pateley Bridge & Nidderdale Herald 19 March 1904, page 7 col.4 "While Mr Thomas Holroyd followed the bent of his mind in water-colour drawing and oil painting, Mr James concentrated his energies upon the photographic business." Storye book (talk) 10:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
An interesting life we can barely report on. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS really is a burr sometimes. Also, "oh my god, they were roommates"—this is why we need some more damn queer historians. :l as for your ALT4, it works, although it really is quite a shame that we can't say the things that are so interesting about this person. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 20:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Storye book and thanks theleekycauldron - ALT4 works for me! Fingers crossed a queer historian will come across Holroyd and write something we can cite in future. Lajmmoore (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes, there was a set of four contemporaries in Harrogate (that I've happened to notice so far): William Grainge, John Farrah, Thomas Holroyd and William John Seward Webber. They were all married with children except Webber, who lived with his mum. Grainge and Farrah used to disappear at night on nature walks, and Farrah said something revealing (to those who understood the parlance) in a public talk - you may spot it in the Grainge article. Farrah got Holroyd to do a portrait of Grainge. And you know the rest. It would have been easy for the three married men to happily lead a double life, because men and women socialised separately in those days - except that possibly Mrs Mary Holroyd found out.
If ALT4 is now approved, please could we now have a green tick at the bottom of this template, for the promoters? thank you. Storye book (talk) 10:13, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
@Storye book: how about the ALT5 I suggested up top, combining ALT4 and ALT0/1 for an interesting image hook? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she?) 01:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Good idea, but it wouldn't be accurate, sadly. His bro James died in 1874. The only painting that we have, that was created before 1874 is this: File:William Grainge by Holroyd.jpg - and I get the impression that the promoters are wisely trying to get away from all those photos of old white blokes. But maybe we can adjust ALT5a to fit? E.g. "... went into painting, and he later created ..." ? Storye book (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
@Storye book:and I get the impression that the promoters are wisely trying to get away from all those photos of old white blokes. — shhhhhhhh, don't let anyone know that I've promoted as many white stickfigures as I have white men to the image slot this month
In all seriousness, I think that ALT5b would work—I've posted it above. Cheers! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she?) 10:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I am happy with ALT5b. Sorry, I wasn't intending to make a political comment about promoter policy. I just meant that they were doing their best. I had offered the William Grainge painting as a DYK image previously, it was not used, and I accepted that without question. So all is well. Lajmmoore? Storye book (talk) 11:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
@Storye book and Lajmmoore: thank you both so much for working with me on this one, I'm sorry for the delay and roundabout. Someone else will promote soon enough, I'm sure; and Storye book, I was just making some banter, I didn't think you were making a political comment. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she?) 04:45, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Theleekycauldron Thank you for your support on this - and no worries - I knew you were only joking. I was just clarifying where I was coming from - no reflection on you. All the best. Storye book (talk) 10:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Article is new enough and long enough, well sourced and neutral. There's no copyvio and both images are OK to use. QPQ is done. I've put a "?" currently because I've assumed we would need to wait for the history to be merged before promoting - but do let me know if I'm wrong? Lajmmoore (talk) 09:00, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
