Template:Did you know nominations/Trial of Neumann and Sass

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

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Trial of Neumann and Sass

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Court hearing of the trial of Neumann and Sass in Kaunas, Lithuania in 1935
Court hearing of the trial of Neumann and Sass in Kaunas, Lithuania in 1935

Created by Pofka (talk). Self-nominated at 21:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No -
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: None required.

Overall: The article is new enough, long enough, and cited inline throughout. You are QPQ exempt as this is your fourth nomination. However the article is currently listed on Wikipedia:Copyright problems as it incorporates large amounts of translated text from at least two cited sources. The article also inherits a pro-Lithuanian point of view from its sources as explained on the talk page. The copyright status of the picture also needs to be checked. If it is anonymous and over 70 years old it would be public domain. However it comes from MLE and says "Iš Lietuvos centrinio valstybės archyvo" (From the Central State Archive of Lithuania), so I don’t know when it was first published. TSventon (talk) 14:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

The suggested hook ALT0 is mentioned in the article and supported by several sources.I didn’t find the claim in the ‘’Annaberger Annalen’’ reference, however that is a multi-page PDF in German. I don’t think the hook satisfies NPOV, as according to Alvydas Nikžentaitis on page 777 of Germany and the Memel Germans in the 1930s "Lithuanian historians often allege (without evidence) that this was the first anti-Nazi trial, a 'Little Nuremburg' ". I would suggest something like

Quote from the Lithuanian source: "Nacių masinis teismas Europoje vyko pirmą kartą" "The Nazi mass trial took place in Europe for the first time" link to the reference with this claim. TSventon (talk) 14:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  • Update: copyright problems were resolved on 21 February so checklist updated. TSventon (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Update: the MLE has a general list of illustrators, so I don't think we can assume that the photo of the trial is anonymous. TSventon (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
The copyright note on anonymous/unknown photographer is that they never claimed authorship of the photo. We can guess it had to be one of the people on that list, but with no attribution and none of them having come forward to claim any copyright, it is free and fine until such a claim is made. Kingsif (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Kingsif the photo comes from MLE and says "Iš Lietuvos centrinio valstybės archyvo" (From the Central State Archive of Lithuania). As no name is mentioned, can we treat it as anonymous? TSventon (talk) 10:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Having recently been focusing on central archive works (though not from Lithuania), I think it is safe to do so. I would check that it is appropriately licensed for use in Lithuania and the United States, though. Kingsif (talk) 10:12, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
I notice the image says it's public domain in the EU (which includes the country of origin), but it would also need a tag to explain why it's public domain in the US (if it is), as Commons images need to be PD in both country of origin and US. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Pofka, please could you check US PD status for the image and add a tag on Commons as suggested above? TSventon (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
@Joseph2302: @TSventon: It is a PD Lithuanian image, so it qualifies under the same license as PD-Poland (e.g. Polish photo with this license template), but I believe there is no equivalent Commons template for Lithuania (maybe it should be created now?). This Lithuanian image qualifies all these three requirements (added information about that in this file's license section):
1) it was first published outside the United States (and not published in the U.S. within 30 days),
2) it was first published before 1 March 1989 without copyright notice or before 1964 without copyright renewal or before the source country established copyright relations with the United States,
3) it was in the public domain in its home country (Lithuania) on the URAA date (1 January 1996). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pofka (talk • contribs) 18:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Pinging TSventon and Joseph2302, who wouldn't have been pinged by Pofka's prior post since they forgot to sign it. (Pings don't work without a four-tilde sig.) Also, TSventon, you shouldn't use a status of "no" in {{DYK checklist}} unless the nomination is completely hopeless and almost certainly won't pass even if work is done; if there are solvable issues, then "maybe" is the way to go, and if there's only a minor issue or two, then "?". BlueMoonset (talk) 23:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
That sounds fine to me (I wasn't sure enough about US copyright, which was why I asked). Joseph2302 (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Update:BlueMoonset I followed the Did you know/Reviewing guide and put no because I believe that the article requires considerable work before becoming eligible. I have taken your advice and changed to may be.
Joseph2302, Kingsif thank you for your comments, I have changed the photo to eligible. TSventon (talk) 14:55, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Update I have reset the review status to request a second opinion as I believe the article needs more work to achieve a neutral point of view, see Talk:Trial of Neumann and Sass. As I am a fairly new reviewer I am not sure what level of NPOV issues are acceptable at DYK (and want to learn). I am also busy IRL. The nominator is currently topic banned from Poland and Lithuania, so they may not be able to get further involved. TSventon (talk) 14:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
    • I did some copyediting for tone and neutrality (but did not add balancing sources). I feel like it's passable now, but since I've directly edited the article someone else should check my changes. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I spent some time with this today. I think it passes muster. It's far from perfect. The prose can be clunky, but I think this passes muster for DYK. I like Alt0a. I stripped the tags out of the article. Someone else can add them again after this passes review and gets featured. Good luck. --evrik (talk) 14:29, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
  • for some reason, this wasn't moved... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 21:56, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
  • @Evrik and TSventon: looks like the article still calls it the "first mass trial" unequivocally—want to change the article to match the hook, or the hook to match the article? your call... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 08:00, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
  • @Theleekycauldron:, I have updated the article. I still don't think the article is a good example of NPOV, but I don'want to hold it up further as I don't have much time to spend on it at the moment. TSventon (talk) 09:14, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
    • sounds good, thanks! :) to the promoter, if they ain't me: might be worth it to do a double-check on NPOV and skewed language. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 09:33, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
      • @Pofka, TSventon, and Evrik: There's a neutrality disputed tag next to the statement, "Lithuania acquired the region" (referring to the Klaipėda Region). Does this still need to be resolved? Z1720 (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
  • I think evrik meant to remove all the tags. I don't have a problem with that sentence as it is, I was concerned that an earlier version did not mention that the revolt was carried out by Lithuanians not Klaipėdans. The tag was added by @Reidgreg:. Pofka is topic banned so he can't comment at present. TSventon (talk) 17:54, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
  • The langauge seems to match that found at Klaipėda Revolt, though the word acquire may not be the best choice of word. --evrik (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
    • I'm okay with acquired. I think I was tending toward annex, but the situation is a bit more complicated than that. The tag has been removed. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

ALT0a to T:DYK/P4 without image

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