Template:Did you know nominations/Usmani family of Deoband
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:01, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
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Usmani family of Deoband
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that the father and uncle of Mahmud Hasan Deobandi from the Usmani family of Deoband were co-founders of Darul Uloom Deoband? Source: [1]ALT1:... that Fazlur Rahman Usmani, the father of Aziz-ur-Rahman Usmani and Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, from the Usmani family of Deoband, was a co-founder of Darul Uloom Deoband? Source: [2]ALT2:... that Nehal Ahmad, a member of the Usmani family of Deoband and the grandfather of Zafar Ahmad Usmani was a co-founder of Darul Uloom Deoband? Source: [3]ALT3:... that four members of the Usmani family of Deoband were co-founders of Darul Uloom Deoband? Source: [4][5][6]ALT4:... that Atiqur Rahman Usmani, a member of Usmani family of Deoband co-founded Nadwatul Musannifeen and All India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat? Source: [7]ALT5:... that Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Zafar Ahmad Usmani, who hoisted the flags of Pakistan in Karachi and Dhaka in 1947 in the presence of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, belonged to the Usmani family of Deoband. Source:[8]
Created by TheAafi (talk). Self-nominated at 19:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC).
- This is more of a comment but right now none of the proposed hooks may appeal to an international audience except perhaps for some variant of ALT5. Would it be possible to write a hook that would be understood and interesting even to people outside of Pakistan who may not be familiar with any of the names or events mentioned in the article? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, I guess yes. I'll take some time for this. I know that ALT5 only can make a way out, but I was waiting for a review. Allow me some time. ─ The Aafī (talk) 05:29, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Are you able to finish a review? @TheAafi: Do you need help or clarification? I'm not sure if you were able to work on your hooks. Let your reviewer know if you need help. Edge3 (talk) 04:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- As I noted above, I wouldn't be able to do a full review of this due to a lack of time; however I'm willing to help out with sorting out any hook and hook interest issues. I see that the nominator suggested a new hook below, but the hoisting-the-flag angle will need to have some additional context for non-Pakistani readers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 06:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, Do you think, for example, if we say, Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Zafar Ahmad Usmani, Islamic scholars from the Deoband India based Usmani family of Deoband hoisted the flags of Pakistan in 1947 in Karachi and Dhaka respectively? Or something so. I'd try to fix it. I don't understand how I can provide a more better context for non-Pakistani readers? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 06:18, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm really not sure but I'm leaning towards against. Maybe Edge3 has some ideas? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 06:59, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, Do you think, for example, if we say, Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Zafar Ahmad Usmani, Islamic scholars from the Deoband India based Usmani family of Deoband hoisted the flags of Pakistan in 1947 in Karachi and Dhaka respectively? Or something so. I'd try to fix it. I don't understand how I can provide a more better context for non-Pakistani readers? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 06:18, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- As I noted above, I wouldn't be able to do a full review of this due to a lack of time; however I'm willing to help out with sorting out any hook and hook interest issues. I see that the nominator suggested a new hook below, but the hoisting-the-flag angle will need to have some additional context for non-Pakistani readers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 06:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- This is more of a comment but right now none of the proposed hooks may appeal to an international audience except perhaps for some variant of ALT5. Would it be possible to write a hook that would be understood and interesting even to people outside of Pakistan who may not be familiar with any of the names or events mentioned in the article? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Edge3, I think I won't be able to work on this due some circumstances. Facing an electricity cut-off since few days as well, and different other issues. If @Narutolovehinata5: can help me fixing the hook, I'd try to provide and fix the sources? This is all I can fix for the Alt5? The reference states that they hoisted the flags, and other sources in the article, including those added in this nomination, source it that they belonged to this family. I find this as interesting because the members of this family established not only Darul Uloom Deoband but two members were founders of Jamia Millia Islamia as well, a DYK appeared about another member, Kafilur Rahman Nishat Usmani, founding figures of Pakistan. Thus seems to me an interesting fact about the history of Indian subcontinent. Ideas? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 04:35, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
...that Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Zafar Ahmad Usmani, who hoisted the flags of Pakistan in Karachi and Dhaka in 1947 belonged to the Usmani family of Deoband? Source:[9]
- Comment, Reply to the query that names & events in this might not be known internationally, no, they are, be it Mahmud Hasan Deobandi, Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, Muhammad Shafi Deobandi, Muhammad Taqi Usmani or institutions like Darul Uloom Deoband or Jamia Millia Islamia; issues around this family are well known, and highly respected in the Islamic history. In the Jamia Millia Islamia, we've one gate named after Mahmud Hasan Deobandi, similarly literal works of the members of this family are widely known in UK, India, Pakistan, America, Africa and another places. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 04:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Edge3: do you have something to say now? The reviewer has left the issue to you.─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 08:14, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think the main issue here is that non-Pakistani readers won't be able to get exactly what this "flag raising" thing is all about and why it was important. The context is missing, the hook would be fine otherwise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5 how's this then? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 10:36, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think the main issue here is that non-Pakistani readers won't be able to get exactly what this "flag raising" thing is all about and why it was important. The context is missing, the hook would be fine otherwise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- ... that Islamic scholars Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Zafar Ahmad Usmani, who after the Creation of Pakistan in 1947, hoisted its flags in Karachi and Dhaka, belonged to the Usmani family of Deoband?
- At 192 characters, it's a bit on the upper end of an allowed hook length and could still be shortened if possible, but among the directions proposed so far this is perhaps the most promising. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:39, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5 Thanks for the heads up. I guess I won't be able to shorten it, if yes, we could remove the "Islamic scholars" thing. Helpful? I'm on mobile and I feel hard to write here. If it is more promising than all the earlier tries, may you approve this now with slight modifications on your own? Thanks. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 10:43, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- At 192 characters, it's a bit on the upper end of an allowed hook length and could still be shortened if possible, but among the directions proposed so far this is perhaps the most promising. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:39, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- ALT6:... that four members of the Usmani family of Deoband were co-founders of Darul Uloom Deoband, where the Deobandi movement began? (adaptation of ALT3). Narutolovehinata5, whether or not you have heard of it, the Deobandi movement is very well known in many parts of the world outside Pakistan, & should be the key to the hook imo. Haven't checked if the refs given above support the added bit. Johnbod (talk) 03:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Is there a way to rephrase ALT6? The current version feels a bit repetitive wording-wise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Johnbod:, looks fine to me. The sourcing is offline and Urdu-based, I'd request AGF. Among those four are, Fazlur Rahman Usmani, Zulfiqar Ali Deobandi, the father of Mahmud Hasan Deobandi, Nehal Ahmad, the brother-in-law of Muhammad Qasim Nanautawi and Mehtab Ali, the uncle of Mahmud Hasan Deobandi. Everything such is also individually referenced in the article as well. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 06:05, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Is there a way to rephrase ALT6? The current version feels a bit repetitive wording-wise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Given the comment above: ALT7:... that four members of the Usmani family were co-founders of Darul Uloom Deoband university, where the Deobandi movement began? Johnbod (talk) 17:28, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, university is a bad idea for it, it is better called a seminary. So I propose it as:
- ALT7a:... that four members of the Usmani family were co-founders of Darul Uloom Deoband seminary, where the Deobandi movement began? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Comment @Johnbod: and @Narutolovehinata5:; Five days have passed. Is there any update from you guys? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 19:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm fine with ALT7a, but I'm not the reviewer here. Johnbod (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly I'm probably not the best person to ask here as I'm too unfamiliar with the subject matter to make a full review, the most I can do for now is make hook suggestions. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm fine with ALT7a, but I'm not the reviewer here. Johnbod (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Well the hook issues are sorted but an actual review is needed. Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)- Full review needed from new reviewer now that hooks have been updated. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
The article is new enough and everything checks out - no copyright violations and reliably referenced, neutral and inline cited. I have verified the Urdu-language references; I will assume good faith for offline citation. I prefer the ALT7a as it is the most interesting hook and appropriate for non-Pakistani people. QPQ is not required. Good to go. --Gazal world (talk) 13:59, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Cwmhiraeth: Can you please archive this discussion now? --Gazal world (talk) 09:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think you mean promote rather than archive. Anyway, I have done so. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:01, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Iqbal Hasan Khān, Shaykh al-Hind Mawlāna Mahmūd Hasan: Hayāt awr Ilmi Kārnāme, Aligarh Muslim University, p. 116
- ^ Muhammad Tayyib, Qari. Bukhari, Akbar Shah (ed.). 50 Misaali Shaksiyaat [50 Exemplar personalities] (in Urdu) (July 1999 ed.). pp. 58–59.
- ^ Muhammad Miyan Deobandi, Ulama-e-Haqq Aur Unke Mujahidana Karname, vol. 1, pp. 22–23
- ^ Iqbal Hasan Khān, Shaykh al-Hind Mawlāna Mahmūd Hasan: Hayāt awr Ilmi Kārnāme, Aligarh Muslim University, p. 116
- ^ Muhammad Tayyib, Qari. Bukhari, Akbar Shah (ed.). 50 Misaali Shaksiyaat [50 Exemplar personalities] (in Urdu) (July 1999 ed.). pp. 58–59.
- ^ Muhammad Miyan Deobandi, Ulama-e-Haqq Aur Unke Mujahidana Karname, vol. 1, pp. 22–23
- ^ Mehdi, Jameel (ed.). "Atiqur Rahman Usmani (1901-1984)". Mufakkir-e-Millat Number, Burhan (November 1987 ed.). Delhi: Nadwatul Musannifeen. pp. 506–507.
- ^ https://dailytimes.com.pk/324380/asia-bibi-pakistanis-need-to-bridge-the-mister-mulla-divide/
- ^ https://dailytimes.com.pk/324380/asia-bibi-pakistanis-need-to-bridge-the-mister-mulla-divide/