Template:Did you know nominations/William J. Ennis
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by BorgQueen (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
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William J. Ennis
- ... that William J. Ennis was the first vice principal of Loyola School in New York City? Source: "Principals of Loyola School". Loyola School. Archived from the original on July 27, 2020. Retrieved August 13, 2023.
- ALT1: ... William J. Ennis admitted the first eight students to Loyola School in 1900? Source: Fagan, James P. (May 1904). "The Loyola School, New York". Woodstock Letters. 33 (1): 76. Archived from the original on August 12, 2023. Retrieved August 12, 2023 – via Jesuit Online Library.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/KDVR
Moved to mainspace by Ergo Sum (talk). Self-nominated at 04:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/William J. Ennis; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
Article is new enough (created August 12), long enough (> 10,000 bytes), well and neutrally written and sourced. Earwig doesn't detect any issues. The hook, however, is problematic for two reasons: 1) the article says in "1900, Ennis was appointed vice principal of the school" (and the source says the title of "principal" didn't exist in the school's early years), and 2) the hook is not particularly hooky (being the first principal [or vice principal] of a boys' high school isn't particularly eye- or ear-catching). Ping me when you've addressed these issues and I'll have another look. Cbl62 (talk) 14:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: I've added an alt hook and also clarified that he was vice principal. I've also clarified in the article that although the position was called vice principal, it was the equivalent of what today would be called principal. Ergo Sum 00:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- After going back to the cited source (here), neither hook IMO meets requirements of being supported by the source or of being hooky. First, the source says that another priest altogether (Father McKinnon) was the school's top guy and that Ennis was McKinnon's assistant, i.e., that Enis was "appointed as Vice Principal to Father McKinnon." It says that Father McKinnon was "entrusted with the burdensome and responsible task of building the school and finding students for it." It does then say in vague and uncertain language that "the first pupils . . .were drafted after passing through Father Ennis' hands." I don't believe this source (and its "passing through the hands" reference) supports the affirmative assertion in Wikivoice that Ennis (as opposed to McKinnon who was charged entrusted with the responsible task of "finding students") was the person who "admitted the first eight students." At best, it might support an assertion that Ennis was responsible with vetting the first students, but that's really not hooky at all. In 15 years of reviewing hooks, I don't recall rejecting one for lack of hookiness but it seems warranted here. Cbl62 (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you take a look at the Principals of Loyola School source, which is the inline source at the end of the sentence about him being appointed vice principal of the school, it will say that "vice principal" was the nomenclature used to refer to the position later called just "principal." In any event, I've clarified the hook here.
- I do think the fact that the students were admitted by Ennis is supported by the source. Although it uses somewhat poetic language, I'm not sure how else one can interpret the statement that students entered the school by "passing through" Ennis' hands. It seems unavoidable that, at a minimum, he played a role in admission, if not being solely responsible for it. McKinnon being responsible for "finding" students is consistent with the rest of the source's description of his role -- promotion of the school among wealthy New York Catholics -- without managing the day-to-day affairs.
- As for hookiness, I think it is implicit in the structure and rules of DYK that every article is eligible by virtue of that article being notable for inclusion on WP. If it is a relatively uneventful article, as this one is, then editors must supply the most hooky hook that the article supports. Ergo Sum 13:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
I disagree.
- The source saying students "passed through" his hands does not mean that he admitted them. It may mean that he was simply responsible for interviewing or vetting them. It is just as likely that that McKinnon (or a committee) made the final admission decision.
- I also disagree with your assertion that "every article is eligible" even though it is admittedly an "uneventful" one. DYK should be limited to articles where something truly hooky is worth featuring on the Main Page. It took me time to learn that lesson with respect to my own article creations. (Back in 2009, 2010ish, I submitted as many as 200 DYKs per year, but have since realized that it is better to limit submissions to cases where something really warrants the honor. Every article we write is not worthy of being featured on Wikipedia's Main Page simply because it has 1500 characters, is adequately sourced, etc. If there's not something hooky, then we should not expect the high honor of a Main Page feature. If you feel strongly that the Ennis article is worthy of being featured, you are free to appeal my rejection at WT:DYK. Cbl62 (talk) 15:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: I've added an alt hook and also clarified that he was vice principal. I've also clarified in the article that although the position was called vice principal, it was the equivalent of what today would be called principal. Ergo Sum 00:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Disclaimer: I'm commenting here after seeing the discussion by Cbl62, but the thoughts I'm writing are my own. I have to agree with Cbl62 here that neither hook is especially hooky, with ALT1 being rather mundane and ALT0 not only being frankly unimpressive (being the vice-principal of a major school, while probably an achievement, isn't really a hooky fact for DYK) but also perhaps specialist. The point is that not every article is a good fit to be featured on DYK and this is probably one of those cases. We should not force nominations on articles where the information to make a good hook just isn't there. Cbl62 is right: effort should be made towards actual good fits for DYK, rather than squeezing hooks out of articles that aren't a good fit. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- As an additional comment and as a response to the "all articles are eligible, even mundane ones" point: while not explicitly stated in the rules, we do have the interestingness criterion for hooks which says that a hook should be "likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest." This means that a hook needs to be eyecatching even to people unfamiliar with the topic or have little-to-no background knowledge. An article can be rejected for failing other criteria, which means a nomination can be rejected for lack of a suitable hook, something that has actually been done on DYK before (not enough times if you ask me). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)