Template talk:Cite newspaper The Times

column/page display order

As currently written, when given both |page=2 and |column=N, the template renders "col N, p. 2". A couple of things about this seem odd to me. First is the order of rendering with the most specific location rendered first (column) followed by the least specific location (page). This to me is backwards. The rendering should proceed left-to-right least-specific-to-most-specific. Second, the column abbreviation should have a trailing dot "col." So, I've tweaked the sandbox. Compare:

"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col N, p. 2. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help) – live

"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col N, p. 2. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help) – sandbox

While I have done nothing about this yet, it also seems to me that |column= should be ignored when |pages= is specified and also ignored when |page= is not specified.

Without objection, I shall update the live template to render page-before-column.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The column parameter does not need to be ignored when pages is used.

"Article Title". Section Name. The Times. No. 12345. London. 3 January 1949. col E-F, A, pp. 2, 3. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

is clear enough in its meaning, is it not? Mjroots (talk)

Point taken.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: - could you switch the display order as proposed please? Mjroots (talk) 08:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I can do that. But, before I do, in the intervening months, Module:Template wrapper has come into being. This module is expressly intended for templates like {{cite newspaper The Times}} which sets certain parameters of another (base) template to default values but will allow these meta templates to support all of the base template's parameters without the need for extra pass-through parameters. For example, in the current live template, |author= is the only author-name parameter supported. With Module:Template wrapper, {{cite newspaper The Times}} can use all of the author-name parameters supported by {{cite news}}, for example |last= / |first=:

{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |first=J.H. |last=Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B }}

Reynolds, J.H. (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

I have also added   between col. and its value and changed the subscription indicator to use |url-access=.

If these changes are acceptable, I will update the live template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 09:28, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

parameters that ought to be deprecated and removed

I think that some of the parameters used by this template should be deprecated:

• |page_number= and |page_numbers= – these are too long and the underscore separator is inconsistent with the hyphen separator used in {{cite news}} (and all other cs1|2 templates) upon which {{cite newspaper The Times}} is based. Since this edit on 28 September 2016, this template has supported |page= and |pages= (the documentation, of course, has failed to mention that because, mea culpa, I suck at documentation).
• |articlename= – also too long and also inconsistent with the underlying {{cite news}} which uses |title= (which became a supported parameter at the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above)

I have tweaked the ~/sandbox to emit an error message when one (or more) of these parameters appear in a template:

{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |articlename=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page_number=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}

J.H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

Changing that to use |title= and |page= gives:

{{Cite newspaper The Times/sandbox |title=The spelling of Kenya |url=//www.example.com |author=J.H. Reynolds |section=Letters to the editor |day_of_week=Monday |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B}}

J.H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8. template uses deprecated parameter(s) (help)

I have just begun to run a simple awb script to remove |day_of_week= from existing instances to {{cite newspaper The Times}} (not a supported parameter since the 28 September 2016 edit mentioned above). It is a relatively simple matter to have the script rename |page_number=, |page_numbers=, and |articlename= at the same time. When that script has completed its task, then the live version of the template can be updated to the sandbox version. The error messages would then become live for a period as an 'educational tool' to retrain editors who use this template. After that training period is over, the deprecated-parameter error messages can go away ({{cite news}} will emit error messages when |page_number=, |page_numbers=, and |articlename= are detected).

Without objections, I shall proceed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: I fully support this proposal. I came here to propose something similar, and was delighted to see that you are already on the case, with a very coherent plan. Thank you.

Consistency of parameter names helps everyone. I encountered this exception when a batch of ~20 articles appeared in Category:CS1 errors: unsupported parameter, and my regular cleanup script converted |page_number= to |page-number=. I saved two such pages intending to check what was going on (cos I hadn't seen those params before), but got sidetracked and forgot to check. @Lotje kindly reverted my two edits, and left a note on my talk.

It would be a big job to rewrite my AWB setup to accommodate the underscore params, and I am relieved not to have to do so. I will hold off running my script again until the conversion is complete. Merry Christmas! BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I support the changes to standardize parameter names among similar templates. Editors shouldn't need to relearn parameter usage each time. Gonnym (talk) 12:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Greetings Trappist the monk, I hope all is well with you. I literally just happened upon this tool and thought you might find it useful, perhaps even now. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 03:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Live template updated. I've added all of the deprecated parameters to Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Rename template parameters § Cite newspaper The Times and hacked an awb script to explicitely replace those deprecated parameters (I never use awb general fixes but there are a lot of editors who do). There are 6000-ish article that use this template so it will take a while to replace all of those parameters.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Link please

Is there a way to make a wikilink on the newspaper name? BhamBoi (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Generally not needed and perhaps not desirable. But, if you must:

{{Cite newspaper The Times |title=The spelling of Kenya |author=J. H. Reynolds |department=Letters to the editor |date=8 February 1932 |page=8 |issue=46051 |column=B |newspaper=[[The Times]]}}

J. H. Reynolds (8 February 1932). "The spelling of Kenya". Letters to the editor. The Times. No. 46051. London. col B, p. 8.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)