Template talk:Gold Coast Sports Teams

Instructions

As per the original {{Brisbane Sports Teams}} Bongomanrae (talk) 22:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Representing their City

This is a template for sporting teams that represent their city. Really? How exactly do they do that? Their players are not drawn from residents of the area, indeed in leagues like the AFL cannot be drawn locally because of the draft system, they are generally not owned by residents but by business interests. This is professional sport, the teams represent their owners, they are professional businesses. Their link to their City, it purely geographical and marketting. --Falcadore (talk) 10:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

On another layer that isn't how these templates have been set up anyway. Have a look at the Brisbane template, it's filled it with teams called 'Queensland', in that respect representing the whole state. And that's leaving aside a team like the Brisbane Broncos, which is owned by News Limited, an American owned company. The Melbourne template is full of teams called Victoria, or in the opposite direction teams which only named after suburbs or small regions of Melbourne. To say otherwise is a complete contradiction.

And there are other teams with no geographical names at all, the Rugby League team Canterbury Bulldogs was known for many years, and quite recently as just 'the Bulldogs' - thus proving a team does not have to meet the criteria of a geographical name - and take a look at the name on the Sydney template - Sydney Based Sporting Teams Competing in National Competitions. Based is the only criteria defined. --Falcadore (talk) 10:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I accept that you seem pretty keen on motorsport but they simply do not belong this template. They don't represent regions, they don't recruit from certain areas, etc. If you would like to create a motorsport template then go right ahead but common sense says that "Triple Eight Race Engineering" simply does not belong alongside the Brisbane Broncos/Roar/Lions etc. Ditto for other cities. Bongomanrae (talk) 06:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

And it seems to me that your basis for rejection of motor racing teams is that you aren't keen on it. AFL teams don't recruit from certain areas, they have a player draft which assigns players clubs without their input into choice and sends them across the country. A-League doesn't recruit locally. Cricket, both Rugbies, AFL, A-League, Basketball, Netball, they all recruit their players and staff from the best sources across the country and overseas. These teams represent commercial interests they aren't owned by government or taxpayers. Sometimes the geographical name isn't even accurate. The Brisbane Bears lived 100 kilometres from Brisbane for many years. The geographical based names are a quirk of marketting. From what I can tell of your previous post, you are attempting to apply amateur sport principles to professional sport, then picking and choosing on a personal basis as to what you do and don't like.

And you know, you can actually get regionally named motor racing teams, for example, Team Kiwi Racing. Dick Johnson Racing always was proud of its Queensland heritage and painted a map of Queensland onto their cars for many years. So I ask, if your point of objection is based around how motor racing teams name themselves, just the name, what sort of criteria for rejection is that? --Falcadore (talk) 06:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

You seem pretty keen on this but I think it's pretty clear that motorsport teams in no way represent specific regions in the same way that a football club like the Brisbane Broncos do. You're confusing recruiting of players with a a team which represents a particular city.

I'll be removing the links again from the template but there is nothing stopping you from making a motorsport specific template to link together all of the teams. I'm more than happy to lend a hand if you need help. Cheers Bongomanrae (talk) 06:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

You have made no attempt to demonstrate that at all, you've just venture you're opinion. It's simply you're opinion vs mine.

Additionally I note that nowhere on any of these templates is it written that these teams have to represent a set of cartographic borders (which these templates do not actually conform to anyway with several of the city specific templates featuring statewide labelled teams).

You've simply ignored everything point I have put forward and over-written you're own opinion, and that in no way represents a consensus. I am afraid you will need to provide more than simply you're opinion, refer WP:CONSENSUS. --Falcadore (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not remove motorsport

I ask again please - the templates are titled "Sporting teams based on the Gold Coast". It is very clear that based in the operative term. No mention of a criteria based on the names of teams has ever existed. I fail to understand under the criterias in existance for this template how motor racing teams do not qualify. The templates work together with articles like Sport in Sydney and Sport in Queensland articles. --Falcadore (talk) 14:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

It's a little hard to track the dispute thanks to it mostly being held in edit summaries and deleted talk. Can involved editors outline their concerns here in Talk? At face value the template says "Sporting teams based on the Gold Coast", and that I think would certainly include motorsports teams based on the Gold Coast. What is the reason to not include them?—Insider201283 (talk) 09:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The IP editor involved has not responded once on a talk page thus far. I feel pessimistic towards your chances of receiving a reply. --Falcadore (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, well I went back in the history to when the templates were originally created and the Brisbane one even said "based in and around", before later being narrowed to "based in", which is what the GC template also has. That clearly covers any sport team geographically based in the Brisbane region, not just "representative" teams, which as I think you pointed out is problematic, especially with commercial teams. --Insider201283 (talk) 10:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

If the factual basis is on the side of inclusion, and the only communication I get apart from deletion, is insults, what course of action is open to me? --Falcadore (talk) 01:09, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

You've gone for a third opinion, which was a good second step (after trying to talk about it first). If it continues, WP:DISPUTE outlines the path to take. --Insider201283 (talk) 01:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is it comes down to both what you mean by "team" and "based in". Most non-motorsport followers wouldn't consider motorsport as having teams. I mean you only have to read about Mark Webber and Redbull and the concept of a team is pretty different to how most ball sport teams operate! Most would consider them "shared sponsorship groups", rather than teams in the traditional sense. But, if they are moving more towards a team style of approach, then maybe they do belong. Which brings us to "based in". Ball sport teams generally are considered to be based in the town/city where they either train in or play their home grounds in. Neither of which apply to motorsport, due to the nature of the sport and the competition style. So is having their "main garage" in a town enough? I don't know, but my feeling is that unless there is both a demonstrated link to a region, and a demonstrated team setup and culture, then they shouldn't belong in this list. We don't want every privateer who grabs a second driver to form a team and who lives or has a garage or sponsor in the region to qualify for this list. I suppose the other point is that ball sport teams are generally fairly stable - they generally stick around for quite a few years and have a licence to compete (I know that some do merge and move, but it is not that common) - is that the case with motorsport teams, or are they more flexible, coming and going, year by year? The-Pope (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Several race teams have long held allegiances to their locations. Dick Johnson Racing has long been fiercely patriotic towards being a Queensland team, many years featuring state maps prominently. Other teams like Sydney Star Racing, Team Kiwi Racing, Tasman Motorsport have also had obvious links. Up until its sale Lansvale Racing Team made much of its heritage as the last major team to be based in Sydney out of the suburb Lansvale. Brad Jones Racing, the only rurally based team identifies itself with its Albury/Wodonga home. It's far from unknown, just not universal.

The templates were created to go hand in hand with the Sport in (insert State/City here) articles, reflecting their content. The removal of motorsport works directly against that concept. In V8 Supercar you do all of your testing at your local racetrack - mandated by regulation. The Queensland teams all test at Queensland Raceway, the Victorians at Winton Motor Raceway. They all have a home venue with which they identify with and much is made of the connection when the series visits these venues.

That having been said - is public perception - especially when it is foundationally shaky - a reason to be taken into consideration? Isn't the potential inaccuracies of perception one of the reasons for Wikipedia's existence? ::Some motorsport teams are very stable. Dick Johnson Racing has been part of the Queensland scene since 1980. Holden Racing Team has been part of Victoria since 1989. Perkins Engineering team, dated from 1987. Ford Performance Racing, after a name and ownership change (hardly uncommon amongst football teams) goes back to 1989 as Glenn Seton Racing in Victoria. Paul Morris Motorsport team began as a Formula Ford team in Queensland in 1989. Brad Jones Racing has been in Albury-Wodonga since the 1980s. Petr Brock's iconic Holden Dealer Team live in Melbourne from 1969-1987, and continued under a different name until 1993. Until Lansvale Racing Team was sold, it had been run out of Lansvale, Sydney from 1986 to 2003. Do you need more examples? Do I need to bring up teams like the Hunter Marriners, Adelaide Rams, Western Reds, the littany of shortlived Basketball and Soccer teams at national level? Mergers and relocations in AFL, Rugby League. The Canberra Cosmos cricket team. --Falcadore (talk) 04:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Just as an aside - isn't a navigational template for which it is used to assist navigation around Wikipedia a strange please to be making I have to say slightly elitist judgements on inclusion? It is just a navigational template, it is not making any kind of substantive judgement on the nature of sport. --Falcadore (talk) 07:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I have no opinion either way - I was just stating what I would consider necessary for inclusion - nothing to do with being elitist - if you allow a free-for-all inclusion policy then the navboxes can become so overwhelming that they become useless. Maybe not an issue with a GC based one, but think about every possible Melbourne/Sydney related sporting team at various levels and sports. Dick Johnson racing might be a "Gold Coast institution" and belongs in the list - from a non-motorsport fan with my WP:OR/personal viewpoint even I knew he was a Queenslander (but not that he was based on the Gold Coast) - but do the all of other ones that you've added really belong there as well - in either being a notable team or notable on the Gold Coast? Like Calistemon said, ensure that the article has a good reference for their link to the city and then it may warrant addition to the template.The-Pope (talk) 08:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Considering the criteria established previously was for teams playing in national competitions, I don't see how such a list could become overwhelming. The only motor racing teams listed are those competing in the International V8 Supercars Championship. And if it was to come down to identification with the city in question, then surely half the contents of the Brisbane template would have to be removed as their identity is with the state as a whole rather than Brisbane specifically. Looking at Rugby Union, Cricket, Netball etc...

I used the elitist term because I was attempting to highlight that this is a navigational template used for ease of navigation and to work with the Sport in... articles, articles which do make mention of the motorsport teams. Such criteria do seem to work against what a navigational template is supposed to achieve. I could and should have used a different word, as now people will just focus on whether they feel or whether I intended insult with the remark, so for that I apologise. --Falcadore (talk) 08:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Apart from intermittently following F1 I'm not a motorsport fan at all, but I have to say I absolutely consider, for example, Red Bull Racing, to be a "team" in the same sense of other sports, and I'd consider them as a "sports team based in Milton Keynes". Indeed, they're listed in the article Sport in Milton Keynes. Notability of any team is already established by them having an article. If the list becomes long, so be it.--Insider201283 (talk) 08:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that now qualifies as vandalistic behavior. --Falcadore (talk) 11:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I would guess that most/all of the Brisbane listed teams that are listed on the Brisbane template would train and play most of their home games in Brisbane, hence qualifying as Brisbane based, even if they also identify with the rest of Qld. But of course that discussion should be had on that talk page, not here. The-Pope (talk) 14:54, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I have merely been responding to points raised, and making comparisons along the lines of established behavior. And its not like motor racing teams don't train either. They train locally as well too, and do so before a public audience. Why should the template by limited only to sports where competitions feature only two teams per competition? It is from that simple formatting difference that most of the differences evolve. --Falcadore (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2011 (UTC)