Template talk:Messianic Judaism/Talmud

Talmud

A sizable minority, if not the majority, of people in our movement believe that studying the Talmud is important. I can easily offer half a dozen or more citations from various Messianic websites that actively promote study of the Talmud or quote from it. It clearly belongs in the template. Noogster 00:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

To be countered by an equal or greater amount who call it dangerous and against the spirit of Jesus. I think it clearly does not. If anything, it is a minority of Messianics, of whic you may be part, who believe that the Talmud has significance, especially since Rabbinic/Talmudic Judaism is clearly against the concept that the Messiah has come. -- Avi 03:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't suppose you could prove that minority claim, could you? I mean, I study the Talmud as well. Me and Noogster, well that makes a unanimous majority of us right here on wikipedia. It's kinda sad that there are no other Messianic editors on wikipedia that seem to fit the molds you think Messianics should fit, Avi. Perhaps they really don't exist. inigmatus 03:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Avi, here are several citations. I could give even more citations, if you really wanted me to.

*Messianic FAQ says YES to Talmud study

*Well-known Messianic community site affirms authority of Pharisees/Talmud

*Messianic website, regularly quoting the talmud and using it in its articles, and refers to Jesus as a "Rabbi"

*Joyofthetorah.org, which regularly quotes, and promotes study and practice of the Talmud; use the Artscroll Chumash & Siddur

*Statement of faith confirming that the Talmud, while not scripture, further reveals the nature of G-d and Israel

Now, just my personal opinions, but let me share them: Jesus (Yeshua/Yehoshua ben Yosef) was himself a Pharisaic Rabbi. He was greater than the Ravs (such as Paul), who lived and taught in the diaspora. He was a Ribbi, like Hillel, who were the greatest Torah teachers in 2nd Temple Israel/Judah, to whom the diaspora Ravs were subservient. He had 12 disciples, the oldest of which (Simon Peter/Kefa) may only have been 20 (a couple may have not even been Bar Mitzvahs). They wore tefillin and prayed in Hebrew with the best of them. He instructed them that the Pharisees, Rabbis, and Scribes have Mosaic authority to interpret Torah observance for Israel, but that his followers are not to emulate their lifestyles. It would be difficult for Messianics to fully execute this command of Jesus if they disregarded study and practice of the Talmud, the definitive Pharasaic text.

Summary: The Talmud link belongs on the template, because a significant number of Messianics believe in studying it and applying its teachings at least selectively. If, very hypothetically, as few as 10% were to hold this view, then it would still belong. Compare this to the Judaism template for example which has the Chabad work Tanya listed, even though only Lubavitchers consider it authoritative, which are of course only a tiny fraction of all Jews, religious or not. Noogster 03:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

They only "study" it to search for proofs of the messiahship of Jesus; that's not really the same as using it as a religious text. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you're completely wrong. Stop your POV attempt to make us look like Christian fundamentalists, and stop thinking that you know more about our religion than we do. I presume your religion is Judaism, Jayjg? Well, Judaism demands the highest standards in honesty and ethical behavior. Prove that you are more devout in your walk of Judaism and Torah than we Messianics are by investigating these things or asking a Messianic, rather than presuming you know it all about us and making dubious statements that are not across the board. You would understand all of this if you were Messianic or had a solid understanding of it. Consult me or Inigmatus if you have any more questions about what we actually do believe rather than what you presume we do.

The historically verifiable Yeshua is the one that Messianic Judaism promotes, not the goy Greek one-size-fits-all antinomian sun priest you see in the paintings. Again, I made my case time and time again for why the Talmud has much to do with a large sector of the movement. You continue in reverting (and not notifying me) on subjects you are not fully informed about. Noogster 00:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The Template was deleted under a TFD, and its recreation was only allowed on the condition that it not duplicate items found in the Judaism Template, which is what it was doing in the past. If you continue to re-create a POV fork Template of the Judaism template, it will have to be deleted again. Stick to items which are unique to Messianic Judaism, that will be what is most helpful for the reader. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You continue in your POV attacks and anti-MJ bias. Guess what, genius: TANAKH IS IN THE JUDAISM TEMPLATE, TOO. And not to mention the fact that Christianity and some other religions use some the Hebrew Bible or NT. AND not to mention we call it the Apostolic Writings, not the "New Testament". AND not to mention that the Hebrew Bible is listed twice, once as the Tanakh/Masoretic text (which we use) and once as the Greek Old Testament translatory that Christianity uses. I'm reverting your meritless edit, again. Noogster 03:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I kept the Tanakh stuff in as a concession to you, though I really should have removed it. I suppose I'll have to go the next step now. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where to reply since the threading's been lost here. But anyway... I was not under the impression that Judaism-related topics had to be completely removed from the MJ template. (Was that ever explicitly stated?) Merely that their presence did not cause confusion with the Judaism template or somehow cause people to believe that MJ was accepted as mainstream Judaism. These topics are certainly of interest to MJews, and as a navigational aid to people researching MJ, I cannot see how you can outright ban them. The very idea seems completely preposterous to me. "You are not allowed to link to me because I don't like you"—essentially that is your argument. How can you tell a religion they cannot talk about or reference a topic central to their beliefs? Are you serious??? If you don't want people linking to it, it shouldn't be online to begin with! This is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to marginalize MJ beliefs. I believe the technical solution I built into the current version of the template addresses everyone's concerns adequately. ⇔ ChristTrekker 04:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

And you're absolutely right. And they are absolutely arrogant. Basically, that is their perspective and it is entirely POV: "we don't like you and have a pre-conceived notion of you, so don't do certain things or else". They're sending the entire project to hell in a handbasket and it is profoundly depressing and disturbing to me. Unsigned by Noogster (talk · contribs) 05:31, 5 March 2007

I have protected the template again. Please work it out here. There seems to be a fairly strong consensus in favour of leaving the topics in question out of the template. JFW | T@lk 10:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, inigmatus, here are some responses to your citations. I believe each and every one does not support your contention:

*Messianic FAQ says YES to Talmud study

Quote from source "The Talmud's purpose was never intended to replace the written Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy)" Again, completely the opposite view of Rabbinic Judaism which views the Talmud as a prime repository of Oral Law.

*Well-known Messianic community site affirms authority of Pharisees/Talmud

Quote from source "Yeshua was a Jew, a rabbi and a Pharisee, who wore tzitzit (Numbers 15:37-41), always upheld Torah, often quoted Talmud, and was Orthodox in His practices." OK, so he quoted Talmud. This brings NOTHING to support Messianic study of Talmud today.

*Messianic website, regularly quoting the talmud and using it in its articles, and refers to Jesus as a "Rabbi"

Quote from same source "When we begin to study and observe Torah to become like Messiah, there are pitfalls we must avoid. One such pitfall is the study of Mishnah and Talmud (Rabbinic traditional Law).

*Joyofthetorah.org, which regularly quotes, and promotes study and practice of the Talmud; use the Artscroll Chumash & Siddur

I can find NO discussion of the study of Talmud. Only Mishnaic mention is Pirkei Avos, ONE out of 60-some odd mesechtos of Mishnayos. Also fails.

*Statement of faith confirming that the Talmud, while not scripture, further reveals the nature of G-d and Israel

Quote from source "4. THE TORAH: The Torah may refer to either the Five Books of Moses, the entire Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) or the whole Bible, depending on usage. The Torah in our usage never refers to the Talmud but, while we do not consider the Talmud or any other commentary on the Scriptures as the Word of G-d, we believe that the writings of Oral Tradition, such as the Talmud, the Mishnah, and the Midrash Rabbah, also contain further insight into the character of G-d and His dealings with His people. The Torah is given for our protection, not for our perfection. We do not practice in the Diaspora those parts of Torah which require residence in the land, a theocratic civil government and/or a consecrated Temple on Mount Moriah." Also completely contrary.

-- Avi 15:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(Wrong person. I didn't bring up Talmud here. But thanks for responding to Noogster. I personally think Talmud is a related text in Messianic Judaism, even if its not looked to as an authoritative religious text; it provides background and information necessary to many messages I've heard given in various Messianic synagogues. If anything, I think the appropriateness of including "Talmud" in the template is to think if it would be appropriate for the Bible to be included in the Muslim template. The Muslims don't claim the bible as authoritative, but do look to it for important background and information necessary to some messages given in Mosques. At the same time though, I think the links Noogster provided is an honest attempt to show the importance of Talmud study in Messianic Judaism circles, however I can attest that it's a issue that currently being debated in Messianic Judaism - an issue I don't think has been decided on yet, but when it does, or if MJs accept more and more Talmud in their study, I don't see why such a relevant link should be excluded from the template just because some other religion claims exclusivity to the text.) inigmatus 13:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Avi, you are either purposely attempting to explain away the clear messages of the websites cited, or you have some very poor reading comprehension skills. You are wrong here in almost every case, and let me explain.

Quote: Quote from source "The Talmud's purpose was never intended to replace the written Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy)" Again, completely the opposite view of Rabbinic Judaism which views the Talmud as a prime repository of Oral Law. Truth: Actually, what you are citing as contradictory is in complete harmony with the Rabbinical Talmudic view. The quoted phrase is in fact in response to the false view some have that the Oral law was meant to “replace” the Written (which is not true, the website states that it is the authoritative interpretation of the Written Law). Not to mention that this is all miscellaneous one way or another to the fact that the website explicitly says study of Talmud = good.

Quote: Quote from source "Yeshua was a Jew, a rabbi and a Pharisee, who wore tzitzit (Numbers 15:37-41), always upheld Torah, often quoted Talmud, and was Orthodox in His practices." OK, so he quoted Talmud. This brings NOTHING to support Messianic study of Talmud today. Truth: Hahaha, that’s a good one, Avi. Every portion of the cited statement is suggesting that Yeshua was a Rabbi, a Pharisee, one with the Oral Law in addition to the Written. How much better to understand him than to study what he would have upheld! At least, according to this website. Also, here the same website states explicitly that the Oral Law is necessary to understand many parts of the Written.

Quote: When we begin to study and observe Torah to become like Messiah, there are pitfalls we must avoid. One such pitfall is the study of Mishnah and Talmud (Rabbinic traditional Law). Truth: That website’s articles are actually written by more than one person. The person who wrote that article had a perspective obviously not consistent with the overarching themes of the website and his/her congregation. The website regularly quotes Talmudic passages on every sort of subject, uses the Orthodox Jewish calendar, promotes all manner of Jewish tradition, and even sometimes uses the Talmud to provide a final answer to certain issues (see, for example, its article on re-marriage). If you see this other article from that same website, it says right off the bat that To fully understand what Yeshua does and what he teaches we must explore the institutions of Rabbinical teaching and methodology.. And in that very same page in the margin the Talmud is quoted. And then the article continues on to explore the finer points of Yeshua and his Talmidim, quoting various first century sources, stating that the Talmud is to be studied, and other Rabbinical writings along the way. And then this similar article HERE also upholds study in the Rabbinic manner, refers to Jesus in an entirely Perushim light, and explicitly makes positive reference to the “sages”.

Quote: I can find NO discussion of the study of Talmud. Only Mishnaic mention is Pirkei Avos, ONE out of 60-some odd mesechtos of Mishnayos. Also fails. Truth: I suppose it means the website creator really likes the Pirke Avot, then? The site states from the very beginning that the services endorsed are all very traditionally halakhic and that they don’t even do the Torah reading if there isn’t a minyan present.

Quote: Quote from source "4. THE TORAH: The Torah may refer to either the Five Books of Moses, the entire Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) or the whole Bible, depending on usage. The Torah in our usage never refers to the Talmud but, while we do not consider the Talmud or any other commentary on the Scriptures as the Word of G-d, we believe that the writings of Oral Tradition, such as the Talmud, the Mishnah, and the Midrash Rabbah, also contain further insight into the character of G-d and His dealings with His people. The Torah is given for our protection, not for our perfection. We do not practice in the Diaspora those parts of Torah which require residence in the land, a theocratic civil government and/or a consecrated Temple on Mount Moriah." Also completely contrary. Truth: Actually it’s not in the least contrary. The CTOMC does not consider the Oral Law to be Scripture (as in divinely inspired/and or on a Biblical level). Then they continue to praise the Talmud’s merits by stating that it contains further insight into G-d‘s character and His people (and therefore of course should be studied). Everything after that is actually completely in agreement with the Rabbinic view. The quoted text is referring to verdicts for crimes as well as animal sacrifices and some more minor things that require the Temple to be standing and the Diaspora to be a minority. In fact much of the Oral Law developed as a codified response to how Judaism should be practiced when there is not the Temple/Priesthood functioning in Jerusalem.

Therefore the validity of all five cited sources for the importance of the Talmud in the movement stands. Even the simple fact that Messianics don Kippoth and Tefillin, and call their seminary-ordained leaders Rabbis, is inherent proof of the definitive impact that the Talmud and/or Rabbinic concepts have had and continue to have on the movement. Noogster 22:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The only reason this Template was allowed to be re-created after it was deleted via TfD was because you promised not to add items that were already on the Judaism template, which was the reason it was deleted in the first place. Please don't break that promise, or pretend agreement where there is none. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I can agree for now that Talmud does not yet belong in this template. The Messianic movement as a whole would not consider the Talmud as anything more than a literary reference, while others use it in their Sabbath messages. I would, however, see the purpose in including Talmud if there were other items in the template that were also common literary references for Messianics - sort of like including the 10 commmandments on a government building wall if it was listed alongside other secular literary/law presentations. This post here should be a stamp of consensus on this issue for now, and I would hope that it would serve as a guideline for readdressing this issue again in the future. inigmatus 15:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)