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User:Antidiskriminator/Drafts of articles/List of non resolved topics on Skanderbeg article

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Reply to Kebeta[edit]

Based on the request of User:Kebeta I will try make a "List of non resolved topics on Skanderbeg article" with "3 to 5 mayor points".

I will comment the last version of the article (last time revised at 16:27, 11 October 2011)

Sources[edit]

There was discussion about sources which are used in this article, but this issue remained unresolved. This issue can be summarized like this:

  1. Works of Albanian historiography. Despite the fact that there was significant effort of Albanian historiography to adapt the facts about Skanderbeg to meet the requests of the contemporary ideology[1] almost all article relies heavily on works of Albanian historiography written by: Skënder Anamali (in Albanian), Fan S. Noli, Kristo Frashëri (in Albanian), Nelo Drizari and Gegaj Athanase (in French). Works of Albanian historiography were cited about 100 times (Skënder 23, Noli 40 and Frashëri 29 times). Both communist and post-communist Albanian historiography projected Skanderbeg as national hero as a result of their efforts of to present Albania's anti-Islamic past by producing Christian myths.[2]
  2. Sources on Albanian language are used more than 50 times although "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones" according to WP:NOENG
  3. There is extensive use of the sources which are based on forgery. Although it was discovered that Marin Barleti and Biemmi forged documents used in their works[3][4] and that Noli and Gegaj mistakenly believed that those documents are authentic and heavily relied their works on them [5] their works are still used in the article about Skanderbeg. Especially works of Noli who is cited 40 times!
  4. Harry Hodgkinson case. A picture about problematic sources would not be complete without Harry Hodginson who was not historian but British intelligence officer supported the Albanian cause and took up strong anti-Serb and anti-Bulgarian positions.[6]. Harry Hodginson was cited 16 times!

"This article is about the Albanian hero."[edit]

"This article is about the Albanian hero." is the first sentence of the article. It is wrong and against WP:NPOV whatever meaning "Albanian hero" can have. If "Albanian hero" means:

  1. "born in region of Albania" then Skanderbeg was not Albanian (or it is disputed at least) because maybe he was not born in Albania but in region of Debar in Macedonia. Debar is in Macedonian region which part belongs to Republic of Albania.[7]
  2. "born in country which name is Albania" then it is again wrong because state Albania did not exist when he was born
  3. "ethnic Albanian" then it is again incorrect because his ethnicity is disputed and information about that dispute can be found in almost every text which is written about him (except in this article)
  4. "Hero of Albania" then it is again incorrect because Skanderbeg is not on the list of people who were awarded with this title.
  5. "hero of ethnic Albanians" then it is again incorrect because Skanderbeg is considered as hero by many other people, not only Albanians
  6. "hero of people who live in Albania" then it is again wrong because he is considered as hero by many citizens of many other countries besides Albanian

Alternative names[edit]

Skanderbeg's alternative names are written on three languages: Albanian, Latin and Turkish. Even in the name section there is text only about Albanian version of his first name (Gjergj) which appeared centuries after his name on Serbian language is attested in the first documents written and signed by Skanderbeg. This issue remained unresolved although it was discussed at this section of the talk page. It is against NPOV to write his alternative name on Albanian, Latin and Turkish and not on Greek or Serbian because:

  1. Serbian was his mother language
  2. he himself wrote/spoke Serbian language
  3. he was probably Serb or half Serb
  4. the earliest written literature work about him is on Serbian [8]
  5. the earliest authentic primary documents written by him are written on Serbian (the first and second Act of Hilandar)

References[edit]

  1. ^ Nitsiakos, Vassilis (2010), On the Border - Transborder Mobility, Ethnic Groups and Boundaries along the Albanian-Greek Frontier, Berlin: Lit Verlag, p. 213, ISBN 978-3-643-10793-0, OCLC 700517914, Even a quick look into the historiography of those times suffices to see the effort to adapt the story of Skenderbeg to contemporary ideological stipulations. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); More than one of |author= and |last1= specified (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ Jazexhi, Olsi (2002), "Another approach towards certain 'exported' myths on Albanian historiography between Occident and Islâm" (PDF), Africana, Pisa, Italy: Edistudio di Brunetto Casini, pp. 93–101, the Albanian communist and post-communist historiography, has always tried to produce as many Christian myths as possible, in order of appeasing the Islamophobic West with Albania's glorious anti-Islamic past (!) One of the best ways of doing this has been to project Scanderbeg as Albania's most important national hero. {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  3. ^ Setton, Kenneth (1976–1984), The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-87169-114-9, ...... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) ... {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  4. ^ Setton, Kenneth (1976–1984), The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-87169-114-9, ...... He also invented a correspondence between Skanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II to fit his interpretations of the events in 1461—1463 ... {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)
  5. ^ Setton, Kenneth M. (1978), The Papacy and the Levant (1204–1571), Volume II: The Fifteenth Century, DIANE Publishing, p. 102, ISBN 0-87169-127-2, Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.
  6. ^ James Pettifer (2008). "Obituary: Harry Hodgkinson". The Independent. London, United Kingdom. Retrieved November 27, 2010. throughout his life he fought for the Albanian cause and took up strong anti-Serb and anti-Bulgarian positions
  7. ^ Robelli, Enver (25), Schweizer Historiker weckt den Ärger der Albaner (in German), Switzerland: Tagesanzeiger, Skanderbegs Familie stammte aus der Region Dibra, die sich heute an der Grenze zwischen Albanien und Mazedonien befindet. Das Gebiet war im Mittelalter sowohl von albanischen als auch von slawischen Stämmen christlich-orthodoxen Glaubens besiedelt. Skanderbegs Mutter Vojsava war eine Serbin aus der einflussreichen Familie Brankovic. Der Name des Stammes Kastrioti leitet sich laut Schmitt vermutlich vom griechischen Wort «kastron» (Festung) ab....Skanderbeg family came from the region of Dibra, which is now located on the border between Albania and Macedonia. {{citation}}: |first2= missing |last2= (help); Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |lay-date= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  8. ^ Mihailović, Konstantin (1865) [1490—1501], Turska istorija ili kronika (Турска историја или кроника (Memoirs af a Janissary)) (in Serbian), vol. 18, Glasnik Srpskoga učenog društva (Serbian Learned Society) {{citation}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help)

POV issues[edit]

  1. Ethnicity. Lack of informations in the article about disputed ethnic origin or ethnicity of Skanderbeg, his mother and/or father and people that fought for Skanderbeg and against Skanderbeg (numerous users citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  2. Lack of informations in the article about disputed Slavic connection based on his name and names of members of his family (numerous users citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  3. Name of territory that he governed, and basically toponyms using (Epirus, Albania, part of Albania and part of Epirus, small strip of territory....) (numerous users citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  4. Name on Serbian and Greek language in the lede here and here ...
  5. Lack of informations in the article about disputed religion of Skanderbeg (numerous users citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  6. Lack of informations about Albanians not being resisting Ottoman Empire, but being supporters of Ottoman Empire on the Balkan here
  7. Lack of informations about double headed eagle being not Albanian but originally Byzantine (numerous users)
  8. Lack of informations about criticism of biographies of Skanderbeg here and lack of informations based on book of Oliver Schmitt
  9. Not enough informations about his conflicts with other Albanian highlanders here
  10. Lack of informations about Skanderbeg not having wide support of all Albanians that he allegedly united, especially people from towns.here
  11. Lack of informations about Skanderbeg's main supporters were mountain people who were eager to loot and pillage the lowlanders here
  12. Not enough of informations about best ottoman forces fighting against him were Albanians converted to Turks here
  13. Lack of informations that he did not control all Albanians and whole territory of Albania (toponym) but directly only small strip of land here
  14. Lack of informations about religion playing major role in conflicts, not ethnicity or language here
  15. Not enough clear informations about fragile alliances with local leaders and his relatives here
  16. Lack of informations that his innermost circle included Chancellors, Dalmatian merchants, and members of the Catholic clergy in central and northern Albania - abbots, monks, bishops and archbishops. These were ethnically mixed : Albanian clergymen, Ragusan patricians and Slavic Dalmatian intermediaries here
  17. Not enough informations about ties with Serbian dynasties of Skanderbeg and his decedants here

BIAS issues[edit]

  1. The idea that the Ottoman compared him to Alexander the Great is disputed by numerous users
  2. Idea that Skanderbeg delayed Ottoman expansion is disputed here and here “this sounds like a bit of exaggeration and nationalistic. Surely Turks had quite a lot of space in Balkans to 'move around' Albania. Also they could attack from mediterranean seas. And had Turks not fight in Albania, would they go and invade West Europe during that quarter of a century?”
  3. Problematic existence of modern concept of ethnicity and nationality in medieval times (numerous users not citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  4. Italy that was saved by Skanderbeg disputed here and here
  5. glorifying language to describe the subjectwritten from an Albanian nationalist perspective here, here...
  6. Term Albanian resistance is disputed here
  7. Disputed connection of Skanderbeg with Albanian nation (in modern sense) and state Albania here
  8. Interpretations and using of Skanderbeg more than 500 years after he was born, 21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg (1st Albanian), Skenderaj.... religion struggles, national consciousness, national inspiration, national unity, national freedom, national independence, national solidarity....

Various issues[edit]

  1. What clan his family belonged here and here
  2. Romanian arm wrestling here
  3. Was he gheg or tosk [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive_2#was_skanderbeg_GHEG_OR_TOSK here
  4. Movies about Skanderbeg to be added to external links here
  5. Including information about Juan Castriota here in the article
  6. Meaning and origin of his last (or family) name - Castrioti (numerous users citing numerous reliable and credible sources)
  7. Seal of Skanderbeg (numerous users citing one source, but not reliable and credible)
  8. Transcription of names in the article his fathers, or his family members here and here...
  9. Here one user complained that using title of general for Skanderbeg is not appropriate because there was no such title in Ottoman army. The user suggested Müşir.
  10. Map. In this section one user suggested using map based on this map in the article
  11. Albanian language. It was stated that all documents about Skanderbeg are either in Serbian, Latin or Greek language, and that there is no credible and reliable source that he even spoke Albanian here
  12. Place of birth is disputed. Numerous users citing numerous sources.
  13. Name of Skanderbeg. Skanderbeg is known under that name mainly because he has, after his death, become an important figure for the Albanian identity. Please compare this with an important figure for today's France, the Frankish emperor who is known as Charlemagne in modern French. The name Charlemagne is highly unhistorical for this king, who was known as Karl to his contemporaries and on his coins - on which he, just like Skanderbeg on his seal claimed to be a Roman emperor - as Carolus. Christian medieval kings were cosmopolitan - they married internationally and rarely belonged to a specific nation. User:Sponsianus here
  14. Skender, name that he was maybe given when he was islamized, because there is no other muslim name that he was given.here
  15. Improving chronology of the events and adding missing informations (many users)
  16. Creating separate subtitle and article about "Skanderbeg, myths and interpretations" here
  17. Various mistakes and missing informations here
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