User:Horus Kol/Talk Archive 04-08-08

Cheshire article

Good work on this article. This is one that was deleted earlier. I think it needs as much stuff as you can find from independent non-Scouting sources. Maybe more on the campsites, band, Gang Show, events and activities. I'm not sure I can help much. I'm pretty tied up. Anyway, Good luck and lets hope the deletionists do not come around again. If it is put up for prod or speedy, my advice would be to just remove the tags and force them to put it to AfD. --Bduke 21:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Merging of Camp Drake into Scouting in Illinois

I do not support your recommendation to move the Camp Drake article into Scouting in Illinois. The article, while not top quality yet, does deserve to stand alone. Justinm1978 02:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I said my part in the article, I have the right to leave you a message showing my displeasure with your nomination. Justinm1978 15:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

BSA article renames

Would you revisit Talk:Sea Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) and Talk:Varsity Scouting (Boy Scouts of America)? You reconsidered on the Cub Scouting article name and I would like to get these worked off the list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

UK map images

The map images you added to Category:Scouting in the United Kingdom are probably mis-licensed. I don't think they should be logos. In fact, they might be free use instead of fair use. Please revisit this and let me know what you think. --NThurston 17:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

3rd Padiham (St John's) Scout group

Take a look at this one. It needs to be merged into Scouting in East Lancashire but that County article has not been started. It has been around for a few days. What do you think? --Bduke 01:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

this article is blatant spam on a non-notable group. I almost afd'd it myself. If it's not merged quickly, someone else will afd/speedy it.Rlevse 02:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Scout-uk-map-county-cumbria.gif

Thanks for uploading Image:Scout-uk-map-county-cumbria.gif. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

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Drop BigDT a message about the fair use stuff.Rlevse 02:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that anyone can create a map. There are a ton of freely licensed maps at Commons:Category:Maps of England and if you ask at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve and show them what the map should show, they could easily create a freely licensed one.

The biggest thing to understand about replaceability is that when dealing with a patch, logo, tv screenshot, cd cover, or something like that, the image is not replaceable because there is no such thing as a free version. A user-created version of a Scout patch is still at best a derivative work of the real thing and thus non-free. In the case of a patch or a logo, no Scouting organization would ever release any version of it under the GFDL because then anybody could produce and sell the patch. So we will either use a non-free one or none at all. But in the case of a map or even a photograph, there is potential to create a new map or take a new photo. There is the potential that a copyright holder might someday be willing to release a photo under the GFDL, especially if they are not trying to make money off of the photo. But for patches, logos, screenshots, etc - that's impossible.

So when it is impossible for a free version to exist, a fair use image can be used. Otherwise, it cannot. Does that make sense? --BigDT 03:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I can see what you're saying - but surely a newly created map that shows the same geographical information that this one shows would also be a derivative work? Otherwise, the case of the Ordnance Survey suing the Automobile Association wouldn't have been upheld - http://www.drmap.info/articles/deliberate-errors.html -- Horus Kol Talk 03:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, a fact isn't copyrightable. If counties X, Y, and Z are in a particular Scouting district, then that fact isn't copyrightable and we can display it on a map. On the other hand, there is some creative aspect to how rivers and other physical features are represented on a map. This isn't the same thing, though. --BigDT 04:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can find, the case between OS and AA was that the AA was drawing its maps based on information taken from the OS map, rather than on their own data - AA maps represent the information differently, so it wasn't that they had just copied the OS map outright... what I'm trying to put across is, that by going to the Graphics Lab and saying "I want a map that shows the same information as this map", we're getting into the same place that AA put themselves in, no matter how we change the actual representation of the map... and also, the work would be derivative, and that there is no choice but to use the fair use licence... -- Horus Kol Talk 04:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know the exact legal cutoff, but think about it. Are you saying that nobody can legally make a map of their Scouting districts? As long as we go off of the underlying data (meaning, these counties/zip codes/whatever are shaded red, these counties/zip codes are green, etc), as opposed to tracing the maps themselves, we should be fine. There was a court ruling in America (where Wikipedia is based) in the last year or so where Major league baseball went after fantasy baseball leagues that were using MLB statistics without permission. The ruling was that it was ok because there was no creative aspect to the facts and they were not copyrightable. That's not directly on point, but I think it's reasonably similar. If the Scouting organization gives a list of councils and their geographical locations, we can certainly make a map from that data. --BigDT 05:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

We probably can't copy a map that someone else has done - but if we were to survey the boundary and create a map based on that survey, then yes, we can create a map of the district/county... but The Scout Association has already produced the map, and release it in such a way that allows its use, but with certain restrictions - so whats the point of forcing people to do the work again when it is allowed to use the maps? -- Horus Kol Talk 05:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The point is that it's not our map to use. Unless we are making commentary on the map itself, there is no reasonable claim of fair use. That's not just Wikipedia's policy, that's anywhere. Even if they allow non-commercial use, that isn't enough for Wikipedia because there are downstream commercial uses like ask.com and about.com that use Wikipedia content. But we do have freely licensed maps of the UK delineated in every conceivable way, so we can make one that will convey the necessary information. --BigDT 05:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay - so do I just post each of the maps I've already uploaded at the Graphics Lab list and ask for them to give me maps highlighting the same area? I've probably added about 12-15 of these, and there are about 100 Scout Counties/Areas in total which will need these maps. One problem I foresee is that UK Scout Counties don't necessarily follow any of the political boundaries that most maps will be delineated for. -- Horus Kol Talk 05:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I would suggest that you post the source data, some example maps that show what you are looking for, and see what they can do. --BigDT 05:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm still not 100% convinced, but I'll go this way for now... sorry if I've come over as being pernickety, but I can't see the point of doing work twice. That said - why have we talked about this in two places? -- Horus Kol Talk 05:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

New article

See Scouting sex abuse cases, my talk too. I also put a globabize tag on it.Rlevse 11:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Uk-scouts-district-badge-taceham-hundred.gif

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Image:Uk-scouts-ex-cs-pos.gif

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Fair use rationale for Image:Uk-scouts-ex-cs-pos.gif

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American military organisation

Just saw this comment from you on the Combat Arms Regimental System article: "As Buckboard says - a good reproduction of the official document - but perhaps we could have some plain English written into the article so as to be able to make sense of it all? I just read through it and still don't have a clue about the American military organisation."
Well, it has been 10 months since you made the comment and perhaps you are no longer interested. If you have specific questions, though, feel free to post them on my user page and I'll do my best to answer them. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 16:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

A UK Scout article

G'day. I have not seen you around for sometime. I would like your advice on H007. This was created by Crazyboy899. I have already 'biten' him politely a few times and reversed some of his edits. I think that artcile should be merged into Scouting in Hampshire and I see no argument for an article on Centenary Camps. See the discussion on his talk page. I'm holding off on the merge tags, but I do not see H007 surviving long otherwise. What do you think? --Bduke 21:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Boy Scout

I see you have been a victim of the BSA bully boys in the past as I have. I have reopened the discussion on "Boy Scout" to be renamed "Scout". The current article as it stands shuld be retitled "Boy Scout (BSA)" Albatross2147 09:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Uk-scouts-ex-cl-qsa.gif)

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Comment on Decline of Scouting in the UK

Hi there, Sorry for not leaving my name, it was a long time ago when I wrote the comment on the Scouting Discussion page about the decline. I don't know if you are aware, but particularly in Stoke/Staffordshire scouting is getting rarer. Scout troops seem to have about 5-6 people in them now, but the beavers and cubs are getting 20-30. Whole sections are closing, and I see you're an explorer leader, but the section around my area is awful. Would you agree with me that on the whole the top top leadership of scouting in the UK is letting everyone down? From my/our point of view the communication between the sections is poor, and the actual scouts aren't getting a view. I know people who have been chosen to get awards for being good leaders, which asking virtually anybody and they'd disagree. Long time service, that is honourable, but having good connections with higher bodies, not so. Looking forward to your response, Sam

Samuelhale (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Scouts-j1963.gif)

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