User:Nederlandse Leeuw/People from Kievan Rus' category tree

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Suggested category tree for People from Kievan Rus'

(based on existing examples of Category:People from Austria-Hungary, Category:Austrian people, and Category:People from the Holy Roman Empire for comparison)

Hypotheticals[edit]

* People from Fooland (e.g. Category:People from Austria-Hungary, Category:Austrian people)
** Nobility of Fooland (e.g. Category:Nobility of Austria-Hungary, Category:Austrian nobility) 
*** Nobles of Fooland by title (diffuse, e.g. Category:Nobles of the Holy Roman Empire by title)
**** Princes of/in Fooland (diffuse, e.g. Category:Princes of the Holy Roman Empire)
***** Princes of Barland (non-royalty individuals, e.g. Category:Princes of Bavaria; can have "Barian" or "Barland" in name)
*** Royalty of Fooland (e.g. Category:Austrian royalty)
**** Monarchs of Fooland (e.g. Category:Emperors of Austria; should have "Fooian" or "Fooland" in name)
**** Princes of Fooland (individuals, e.g. Category:Austrian princes; should have "Fooian" or "Fooland" in name))
**** Princesses of Fooland (individuals, e.g. Category:Austrian princesses; should have "Fooian" or "Fooland" in name))
**** (Royal) consorts of Fooland (e.g. Category:Austrian royal consorts; should have "Fooian" or "Fooland" in name))

* People from Fooland (e.g. Category:People from Austria-Hungary, Category:Austrian people)
** People from Fooland by occupation (e.g. Category:People from the Austrian Empire by occupation, Category:Austrian people by occupation > Category:Austrian men by occupation)
*** Monarchs of Fooland (e.g. Category:Emperors of Austria)
*** Princes of Fooland (e.g. Category:Austrian princes)
*** Princesses of Fooland? (e.g. Category:Austrian princesses is not in the people by occupation tree)
*** (Royal) consorts of Fooland? (e.g. Category:Austrian royal consorts is not in the people by occupation tree)

Titles tree[edit]

Questions

By occupation[edit]

Noble families tree[edit]

Notes
  1. ^ Template:Diffuse as much as possible, be skeptical of any category or item which claims to be "of Rurikid descent/stock", as these claims are often WP:UNSOURCED, untrue, dubious or WP:TRIVIAL. Moreover, the historicity of Rurik is heavily disputed by scholars, as is Oleg the Wise's "kin" relationship with him; the earliest genealogies of princes of Kiev go back no further than Igor of Kiev, and it is known that the concept of a "Rurikid dynasty" is an origin myth promoted by Muscovite churchmen in the 15th/16th century in order to bolster the legitimacy of the Daniilovichi dynasty of the Grand Duchy of Moscow. See Rurik dynasty#Genealogical issues.

Rationale[edit]

The goal is to create a category tree that makes sense. This involves renamings, re-parentings, and perhaps new creations and deletions. A core problem was that Category:Nobles of Kievan Rus and Category:Princes in Rus' were trying to do multiple jobs at once, and therefore failing at them. Relevant to the Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 22#Category:Nobles of Kievan Rus CfM in particular, I recommended renaming Category:Nobles of Kievan Rus to Category:Nobility of Kievan Rus' Category:Nobility from Kievan Rus' (per Category:Nobility of the Holy Roman Empire/Category:Nobility of Austria-Hungary), and making it a parent of Category:Noble titles of Kievan Rus (per Category:Nobles of the Holy Roman Empire by title).

We could then rename Category:Noble titles of Kievan Rus to Category:Nobles of Kievan Rus' by title (per Category:Nobles of the Holy Roman Empire by title, and per common parent Category:Nobles by country and title). It's now clear to me that the name of Category:Noble titles of Kievan Rus fits the other parent Category:Noble titles by country, but its contents do not; they fit the Category:Nobles by country and title tree. This is one of the reasons why the category tree is such a mess: Category:Noble titles of Kievan Rus tries to do 2 jobs at once, and thus fails at both.

The outcome of the CfR was strange. However, we can take the next steps in resolving the issues. I have Template:Diffused the Category:Rurikids and Category:Rurik dynasty trees to a significant degree, creating new subcategories where needed, and removing all sorts of vague post-1598 claimants of "Rurikid" ancestry, or when plausible moved them to the appropriate subcategories (especially Category:Rostislavichi family (Smolensk) appears a common source of later Tsarist and Russian Imperial nobility, while the Ruthenian nobility seems to have emerged only in the 14th century with no direct connections with the "Rurikids").

I have come to the conclusion that the terms "royalty" and "royal houses" are pretty useless for categorisation. First, there is the problem of how to translate velikiy knyaz (usually "grand prince" or "grand duke", but sometimes also "king"), and if that means they are below the rank of "king" and thus not "royalty". Second, "royalty" refers only to the reigning king/queen (or higher: emperor/empress, tsar/tsarina etc.) and their immediate family: the immediate family of a king or queen regnant, and sometimes his or her extended family. Once the reigning monarch dies and the next monarch accedes, this may completely change who is now "royalty", just like the order of succession may change suddenly when a royal (including the monarch himself/herself) dies. Moreover, it's always possible for a dynasty to fall by being overthrown (during wars of succession or princely rebellions) by another noble family, whose core members then suddenly become "royalty" at the expense of the immediate family of the overthrown/previous monarch. That they are all nobility, however, is something that never changes until modern times when royalty and nobility are abolished. Therefore, I propose to replace Category:Kievan Rus' royalty with Category:Nobility from Kievan Rus'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

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