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User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Pretenders

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A collection of past, present and future discussions at WP:AFD, WP:CFD, WP:TFD, or other talk pages, on articles/lists, categories and templates of lines of succession to former thrones of abolished monarchies, or lines excluded from existing monarchies, claimants, pretenders, and other related dynastic stuff.

TompaDompa list

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So basically, the same reasons as the previous 32 lines of succession to defunct thrones that have been deleted recently (1 Austro-Hungarian 2 Afghan 3 Two Sicilies 4 Dungarpur 5 Rampur 6 Rajpipla 7 Iraqi 8 Hyderabad 9 Hanoverian 10 Jodhpur 11 Waldeck and Pyrmont 12 Idar 13 Kutch 14 Jammu and Kashmir 15 Tunisian 16 Vadodara (Baroda) 17 Travancore 18 Anhalt 19 Hessian 20 Bharatpur 21 German 22 Württemberg 23 Georgian 24 Bavarian 25 Baden 26 Bulgarian 27 Portuguese 28 Iranian 29 Egyptian 30 Brazilian 31 Albanian 32 Romanian). TompaDompa (talk) 13:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Later additions: 33 Saxon 34 Nepalese 35 Montenegrin 36 Italian 37 Greek 38 Bhopal 39 Russian 40 Mecklenburg.

NLeeuw article list

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Past article discussions

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In addition to TompaDompa's 32 (40) precedents (a few items overlap):

Date TD no. # AfD or other discussion Result Rationale Current status
2005-05-15 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Self-proclaimed Emperors of Moravia and its "government" Delete Deleted
2005-08-16 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Emperors of Mexico Keep "Useful", "has linked articles already". 2019: Pretenders to the throne of Mexico split off.
2006-11-27 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of Succession to the Russian Throne- Part 1 Delete Deleted
2007-06-02 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the Israeli throne Delete WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:RS WP:NPOV. Deleted
2008 Legitimist line of succession to the English and Scottish thrones in 1714 Keep Jacobite line of succession to
the English and Scottish thrones in 1714

This article lists the 66 potential claimants. Why?
2009-01-20 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/People Skipped From the British Throne Delete Duplicate Deleted
2009-09-30 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the German throne Redirect to House of Hohenzollern Still lists 3 branch pretenders branches to present:
House of Hohenzollern#Order of succession
House of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen after 1849
House of Hohenzollern#Succession since 1947
2010 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alternate successions of the English crown Keep Alternative successions to the English and British Crown
2011-04-21 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heir to the Ottoman dynasty Delete POVfork of Line of succession to the Ottoman throne Ottoman dynasty#List of heirs since 1922
lists pretenders to present
2011-11-16 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of current Indian pretenders Delete WP:OR WP:BLP WP:BLPSPS WP:NPOV. 2013: Recreated as redirect.
2012-11-22 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Tuscan throne Delete Deleted
2013-12-26 House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of succession Delete Deleted
2014-03-01 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the French throne (Bonapartist) Keep Succession to the former French throne (Bonapartist)
lists pretenders to present
2014-03-23 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Ethiopian throne Delete Deleted
2015-10-28 List of non-sovereign monarchs who lost their thrones Keep "legitimate topic" List of non-sovereign monarchs who lost their thrones.
May be legitimate, but WP:UNSOURCED.
2015-10-28
2020-08-02
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of heirs to the Yugoslav throne
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Yugoslav throne
Redirect to Line of succession to the former Yugoslav throne House of Karađorđević#Current claims to the throne
lists pretenders to present (updated to April 2022)
2017-01-27 Lifespan timeline of heirs and pretenders to the Romanian throne Merge Merge to King of the Romanians. WP:NOPAGE. Still lists pretenders to present in the timeline.
2017-07-11 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Chinese throne Keep/Rename Met WP:GNG, but renaming appropriate. Redirect to House of Aisin-Gioro#Heads of the House.
2020-04-21 Talk:Jacobite succession/GA1 Lost GA status Jacobite succession still lists pretenders to present
2020-07-23 1 Austro-H. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Austro-Hungarian throne Delete WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:V WP:RS WP:BLP. Deleted
2020-07-31 7 Iraqi Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Iraqi throne Delete Follow-up to Austro-Hungarian throne
+ WP:DEL-REASON 6, WP:NOTGENEALOGY.
Deleted
2020-08-31 Delete 32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc. Deleted
2020-08-31 35 Monten. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Montenegrin throne Delete 32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc. Recreated as redirect to
Petrović-Njegoš dynasty#Heads
of the House since 1918
,
which still lists pretenders to present.
2020-09-19 40 Mecklen. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Mecklenburg thrones Delete 32 precedents. WP:DEL-REASON 6 WP:BLP etc. Deleted
2020-11-03 Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 84#Of archdukes and princes rough consensus that titles in pretense should not be generally used in article titles, infoboxes, etc.
unless its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources
demonstrates that a specific person is commonly named as such
.
2021-04-06 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thurn and Taxis line of succession Delete Deleted
2021-07-03 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Head of the former Chinese imperial clan Delete Deleted
2021-01-19 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living legitimate male Capetians Delete WP:NOTGENEALOGY WP:GNG WP:OR Deleted
2023-08 Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 11#Purge consorts of pretenders?
List of queens consort of the Two Sicilies and List of Greek royal consorts
Purge Consensus was consorts of pretenders should be
purged from lists of consorts of monarchs
Purged from Two Sicilies and Greece.
Remaining elsewhere?
2024-06-12 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the throne of Parma Soft delete Follow-up to c. 60 precedents, royalist listcruft. Deleted
2024-06-12 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the throne of Mexico Soft delete Follow-up to c. 60 precedents,
including TD's 40 precedents of 2020.
Deleted
List of heads of former ruling families Never nominated Includes pretenders and non-pretenders
Legitimists#List of Legitimist claimants to the French throne Never nominated (Purge pretenders after abolition monarchy 1871?) Lists pretenders to present
Miguelist#Miguelist claimants to the throne Never nominated (Purge pretenders after abolition monarchy 1910?) Lists pretenders to present

Current article situation

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NLeeuw category list

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7 June 2007 mass nom

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Other catnoms

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Current category situation

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NLeeuw template list

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Past template discussions

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Current template situation

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Otherwise, this template will always be a Bonapartist vehicle of sorts, and we can't have that per WP:NPOV.

Proposed guideline

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Proposed shortcut: WP:PRETENDER.

When creating articles, lists or categories about people who are or were pretenders or claimants to a current or former dynastic title/throne/crown (be it royal, imperial, princely or otherwise noble in the context of hereditary monarchy), caution must be taken, and certain criteria must be followed.

Policies and guidelines
  • WP:BLP must be respected. Unless a living person is recorded in WP:RS as formally publicly claiming a particular title, they should not be framed as if they are a claimant or pretender. Such statements must be removed immediately, especially if the person in question has renounced such pretensions (as Otto von Habsburg did in 1961).
  • WP:NPOV must be adhered to. The 2020-11-03 RfC found a rough consensus that titles in pretense should not be generally used in article titles, infoboxes, etc. unless its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources demonstrates that a specific person is commonly named as such.
  • WP:OR and WP:SYNTH are strictly prohibited. It's not enough to say that Foo was a descendant of former monarch Bar, therefore Foo was a pretender who woulda coulda shoulda acceded to the throne if XYZ. Wikipedia is WP:NOTGENEALOGY, nor a WP:CRYSTALBALL for your future predictions, nor a forum to post your alternative history stories, nor a WP:SOAPBOX to promote your political opinions. Unless this theoretical possibility can be demonstrated with WP:RS to be relevant in the present, or to have been relevant in the past, it should not be mentioned.
  • Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, that is, just being a descendant of someone who once was a monarch does not mean every pretender gets to have a stand-alone Wikipedia page. In fact, they might not deserve a mention on Wikipedia at all in certain cases.
Practical applications
  • Allowed in lists:
    • It is allowed to create lists (be it stand-alone lists, or list sections in other articles) of historical pretenders or claimants to a throne in a time where that was a relevant issue, such as Competitors for the Crown of Scotland during the Great Cause of the 1290s.
    • It is also allowed to create lists of pretenders to current thrones who have formally publicly claimed that throne, and WP:RS show that this taken somewhat seriously in the current monarchy where another dynasty is currently reigning (e.g. Carlism).
  • Not allowed in lists:
  • Templates: It is not allowed to frame templates of formerly reigning families/houses in terms of "monarchy" or "dynasty" whilst extending its members all the way up to the present (e.g. Template:House of Bonaparte headed by French monarchy and Bonaparte dynasty, but extending far beyond 1870 up to the present pretender Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon, thereby implying that France is still a monarchy today, under the Bonaparte dynasty, and that this pretender is the current monarch).
  • Categorisation: Any person who cannot be labelled a pretender or claimant to a current or former throne (or a consort of one) in an article or list for any of the reasons outlined above, may not be categorised in Category:Pretenders or any of its subcategories.