User talk:Avmatso

Welcome!

Hello, Avmatso, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Nivus|(talk)|(desk) 10:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Three-revert rule[edit]

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on an article. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. --Khoikhoi 03:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits[edit]

Here's an example of why your edits are POV:

Chrysostomos was savagely lynched by the Turkish mob

Savagely? What's up with that? NPOV means including all sides of an issue, no matter how ridiculous you perceive them to be. --Khoikhoi 03:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My version would not use POV adjectives like that. You also need to back up your claims with neutral sources. Other examples:

The Greek army liberated the city from more than 800 years of Ottoman occupation

This is completely from a Greek perspective - how do you think that the Turkish inhabitants of the city felt?

Within a few days, more than 3000 years of Greek presence in Asia Minor, and in the greater Izmir area in particular, ended in an unprecedented bloodlust

Bloodlust?? You're making the Turks sound like the worst people in the world. If you could just state the facts without POV then you'd be fine.

--Khoikhoi 03:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. You shouldn't be using adjectives in this way at all. It is not up to us to determine how the readers should see these things, it's up to them. That's why we need to be neutral on everything. I understand how you feel about these events, many of my relatives were killed in the Holocaust, but I'm not going to go to that article and say that Jews were killed by the "savage bloodthirsty Germans".

I'm not saying that these events should be censored, I'm saying that they have to be said in a way that is acceptable to both Greeks and Turks. See the Adana article for example. In the section about the Adana massacre, it shows both sides of the issue. --Khoikhoi 03:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great job! It's a lot better than your previous version, well done. BTW, do you think the Izmir and Smyrna articles should remain separate? The Istanbul and Constantinople ones are. --Khoikhoi 07:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I agree. Thanks! --Khoikhoi 07:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes

3RR[edit]

Please read 3RR. You can't revert the same article more than 3 times in 24 hours. If you revert one more time, I'll have to report you. I am reverting it back to the version for which the majority reached consensus.--Kagan the Barbarian 16:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You violated this rule before and I didn't do anything about it but you are keeping this pattern. If you edit it back, I'll have to revert it then I'll violate the rule myself, how do I know you won't report me? I wouldn't want to report you, just please move on. Nobody is hiding anything.--Kagan the Barbarian 16:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Smyrni[edit]

I did not say that u are a right-wing fanatic:).this version seems neutral enough,mentioning both POV.however,do u have any source backing up what the american eyewitnesses claim?it would be very interesting to provide it and it would also reduce the possibilities of revert.--Hectorian 07:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK.i saw u added as a source in talk:Izmir.the book may be questionable,but in any case it does not come from a greek.so,it could be considered,somehow,more reliable.anyway.we'll see what'll happen from now on...--Hectorian 07:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

U have not said anything bad so far,but i am letting u know(in case u do not already) that there is the no personal attacks rule.btw,we can work on rewording it,do not worry...:)--Hectorian 08:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do not forget to always sign your edits by putting ~~.ellinas eisai?--Hectorian 09:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

California e?polu xenuhti fantazomai!an xreiasteis kati pes mou;-)--Hectorian 16:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reply[edit]

Your source is POV and your sentences are at an elementary school level. We already have a Smyrna article where all these stories are mentioned in 3-4 paragraphs. Don't flood Izmir article with POV.

Re: Apologies[edit]

You know, I am a little tired of what is going on during the last days. I am all new to Wikipedia and I have to admit that I made some stupid mistakes in my first edits for which I honestly apologize to you and to everyone involved. I don't mind your bitter comments about Greeks or myself (man you have been very very mean, and your english is not that good!) it's clear that you have the wrong idea. Anyway, maybe you don't give a s*** about my apologies. I don't believe, though, that you are what your nickname denotes.

My grandmother was born in Sevdikoy, near Izmir. My grandfather was born in Aydin. As most of the Greek inhabitants of Asia Minor, they were not in favor of the Greek offensive. In fact, there were only a few Greeks in Asia Minor that participated in it. My grandparents told me stories about some atrocities that Greek soldiers commited against the Turks. However, in 1922, almost 1,500,000 refugees came to Greece from Asia Minor. They had many stories to tell about the way they were treated (as the Turks that left Crete or any other place in what is now Greek territory might have, I won't doubt that). They didn't give a s*** about propaganda and nobody can claim that they were all suffering from some kind of delusion. So that the Turkish atrocities, including the lynching of Metropolitan Chrysostomos, are nowadays common knowledge in Greece.

Please don't let yourself be carried away by stereotypes, nobody said that the Turkish troops that entered Izmir pulled out their machettes to cut the throat of every christian that was unlucky enough to get in their way. Just the "normal" things that happen in time of war when soldiers, tired of fighting and marching for miles and miles, enter the last stronghold of the enemy, to find people whose guts they hate, lying at their mercy.

My grandmother used to tell me that Greeks and Turks in Smyrni (allow me to spell the word just once) were getting along with each other. Her words never showed any hatred against the Turks. Moreover, you, as I, are not to blame for things that belong to the past.

I understand that in a page that was built by some Turks out of love of their city, words like "atrocity" and "lynching" do not fit, even if some crazy and stubborn Greek insists that truth (his own truth, if you will) and facts should prevail. I won't revert it anymore.

Farewell

--Avmatso 07:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Keep it cool. ;-)

Thank you for speaking from the heart. As I said before, Greeks being forced to leave their homes in Asia Minor is of course tragic. The Greek-Turkish population exchange in 1920s is actually a tragedy as a whole and the problem is an issue of trust. After the Greek Army occupied Western Anatolia through Izmir (Smyrni), that was the beginning of the end for the Greek population of Asia Minor. I don't expect you to sympathize with the Turkish side but you should at least be able to understand and reason their actions. We can mention the Greek Metropolitan being lynched, we can also mention the Turkish villages burnt down by the occupying Greek forces, should we? As long as it is NPOV I don't mind, I am only afraid it will only make the section unnecessarily longer if we mention every single atrocity, after all it is an article about the city, not any particular event or events.

As for Greeks. I don't have any problem with Greeks who don't have any problem with Turks but you have to admit that most of them have enormous bias towards Turks and Turkish history. To be honest, when I see these people editing Turkey related articles on Wikipedia, it really boils my blood. We have to write history, not his-story, that's how we ensure the mistakes of the past won't be repeated. There is no good in winning back battles on Wikipedia which Greeks lost on the field. There is no point in exaggerating facts or ignoring them wholly. There is no point in always trying to portray your side as the just and the righteous. There is no point in making your losses look like nothing like Miskin did in Battle of Manzikert, write the truth even if it is a humiliating battle for your country, trust me, there is no good coming from distorting history.

Once again thank you for your sincere words. And for the record, my English can kick your English's ass ;-). Regards.--Kagan the Barbarian 12:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Min akous tis ilithiotes tou Kagan. Kaneis den exei tipota enantion ton Tourkon, autos dimiourgei exthrotita opou anakateuetai. Ego prin gnoriso auton den eixa pote mou akoumpisei tourkiko artho, alla mos eida ti blakeies egrafe anagkastika na ton parakolouthiso. Oso gia ti Smyrni exo ego piges kai tis exo parathesei, perimeno apla kapoios na mou zitisei kati pio sygkekrimeno alla kaneis den to exei kanei eos tora. Miskin 01:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ela tora, den mporo na pistepso oti kapoios einai toso euaisthitos se auto to thema :) . Ola pigan kala, oi dyo tourkoi pou dimiourgousan problimata efygan ap'tin wikipedia (i men me ti bia kai o de me diplomatia), kai ta edits mas perasane. Opos sou tonisa kai prin, ego mexri protinos den eixa pote asxolithei me tourkikes ypotheseis sti wikipedia. Mporei na min exo exthra kata ton tourkon, alla den prokeitai pote na tous afiso na mas bgoun kai thimata apo autin tin istoria. Miskin 01:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tou episkopou xrisostomou tou kopsan ti miti, t'autia kai ton gdaran zontano. Auti den einai i diki mou i pragmatikotita, einai istoriki. To elaxisto pou mporoume na kanoume einai apla na to anaferoume sto arthro tous. De mou fainetai kai toso akraio. Miskin 01:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great[edit]

That would be great - please don't leave Wikipedia. I'm not sure if you were going to, but I would really like to see your improvements on the Spanakopita page. :) --Khoikhoi 23:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Na 'sai kala kai sou efxomai kali epituxia sto master sou!:). kai mi fugeis, giati ontws voithas edw!min ksexnas oti to thema tis fotias perase sto arthro kuriws xari se sena, estw ki an oxi opws tha eprepe...adieu! --Hectorian 23:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]