User talk:Consist

Your recent edits at Cladistics

Hello Consist. It seems possible that you are the same editor who has recently been making changes of this article as the IP address 83.254.23.159 (talk · contribs). If you are, you should take note of a warning I left on the IP's talk page:

Hello 83.254. Cladistics is full of paradoxes, as we know. Nevertheless, if you continue to add your personal views in the Cladistics article, without trying to get support from other editors first, you will probably be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Please try to make sensible contributions on Talk:Cladistics, and be sure you can give evidence for your own views by citing published articles. Generally we do not allow people to add their personal point of view to articles. Do that on your own website, if you feel a need to express those thoughts. EdJohnston (talk) 23:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The IP has been blocked for 12 hours. If you continue as you are, both you and the IP will probably wind up both being permanently blocked. EdJohnston (talk) 23:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I am the same ip. I am also identical to Mats Envall who recently falsified cladism using empirical evidence (the relativity of time) in the reference I include. I have thus shown that cladism is empirically wrong, that is, wrong. To me, it is incomprehensible that you ban me from inclding these findings in the definition of cladistics (or cladism which I prefer to call it). Normally, we simply discard models that have been proven to be wrong in science. For how long will cladism be allowed to discard science (and facts)? Consist (talk) 22:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I also have to add that the definition of 'cladistics' does not appear as an explanation of the concept, but as a PR of the comprehension. It is analogous to if creationists should be allowed to formulate their explanation of creationism. In this case editors of Wikipedia however willingly allows adversaries like "In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism (or strict creationism) is commonly used to refer to religiously-motivated rejection of evolution.[2]" These editors obviously look at creationism from the outside and then adversary opinions are allowed in the beginning of the page. Definitions of comprehensions is a difficult matter. What is the definition of Buddhism (from the inside or from the outside, from a christian or from an islamic point of view)? Cladism is such a view, and it denies science. I only try to explain that it is wrong.Consist (talk) 23:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should try to work with the editors at Cladistics by discussing the changes at the talk page instead of, by making heavy-handed edits without discussion or edit summaries, appearing to work against them. —C.Fred (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I have falsified cladism. Its denial of paraphyletic groups is simply empirically wrong. Paraphyletic groups do exist, whereas holophyletic groups (which cladism calls monophyletic groups) do not exist, have not existed, cannot exist nor can have existed. Cladism confuses process and pattern, acknowledging process as if it is pattern although pattern (i.e., reality) is the correct choice for "acknowledgement". My article has been scrutinized by at least 6 reviewers (possibly 10), whereas cladism never was published in any scientific journal before Farris and Nelson dragged it into biological systematics. The reason it wasn't accepted by any scientific journal is that it is wrong.Consist (talk) 22:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

To Ed, I have to correct: cladism isn't "full of paradoxes"; it is wrong. All of us will of course find ourselves in a world of paradoxes if we are wrong about the relations between reality and our comprehension of it. Paradoxes (like that the bumble-bee shouldn't be able to fly) are of course due to our inability to understand reality; they are not existing phenomena. The paradoxes in cladism are due to the fact that cladism is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong. Such comprehensions are of course paradoxical. How could they be otherwise? Cladism is a black hole in science. It is conceptualization the other way around. Consist (talk) 22:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

To C.Fred, I have to direct the question: why should I "work with the editors" at cladistics? If I had shown that alcohol causes sceletal cancer, should I then "work with the editors" at 'sceletal cancer' to enforce my findings on the page? Shouldn't they adopt my findings as soon as they are published? I of course understand that cladism is a particularly complicated error, since it has been enforced since the early 1970-ies, but this is the situation Ashlock warned for. Accepting an inconsistency does not provide a good foundation for a future building. The ground may disappear when the building has been raised. The conclusion that cladism is wrong is analogous to the conclusion that the emperor is naked. It is a fact. If cladists want to discuss in what parts it may be right, then they have to formulate questions we can look for an answer on. "Natural" is everything that isn't true, but feels nice.Consist (talk) 23:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, the article is on cladistics. The introduction explains what cladistics is. It may be appropriate to discuss, in a good length paragraph deeper in the article what the main criticisms are; many articles have a Criticisms section. The disclaimer neither explains the criticisms nor does it provide any aid to an overall understanding of what cladistics is. That's why it's inappropriate for the introduction.

As for why you should work with the editors...Wikipedia is a collaborative environment, so by definition, you have to work with the other editors. Wording isn't decreed by any individual; it's edited by the group as a consensus is reached on the best phrasing. —C.Fred (talk) 00:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

C.Fred: The first problem you mention obviously does not apply on other comprehensions of reality, like creationism. Cladism is obviously treated with silk gloves. The second point of view, that the introduction explains what cladism is, is only partially true; it explains what cladism is from a cladist's perspective. That's why I chossed to place my comment here. Your third comment, that I should critize cladism deeper down in the article, falls on that I don't critisize cladism. I explain that it is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong, that is, wrong. You're right about that I don't explain what cladism is; I only makes a note of caution that it is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong.

As for the wording, the correct wording is that cladism is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong. This message should be hidden as little as possible by words.Consist (talk) 23:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't have anything against cladism. I only want to clarify that it (in the form of denial of paraphyletic groups)is anti-science, and that this does not agree with facts. I just want to put this "denial" in its proper place (i.e., in its proper category: beliefs). The difference between it and other beliefs is that it can be falsified. Paraphyletic groups groups do actually exist as witnessed by the relativity of time. Consist (talk) 23:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring at Cladistics

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. EdJohnston (talk) 01:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not erasing anything. Im not in any war. I'm trying to convey the fact that cladism is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong. I am, however, constantly erased by cladists.Consist (talk) 23:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As noted above, feel free to do that in a section about the criticisms of cladism, not in the introduction. And, of course, make sure you have independent reliable sources that demonstrate the criticism. —C.Fred (talk) 23:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As I noted above, I don't criticize cladism; I explain that it is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong, which I also have proven empirically in my article Envall, M. 2008. On mono-, holo- and paraphyletic groups - a consistent distinction of process and pattern. Biol. J. Linn. Soc. 94:217-220. Cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups is falsified by the relativity of time. What is then left of it?Consist (talk) 23:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Everything that isn't your original research. It hasn't ceased to be a field of biology just because your paper was published. —C.Fred (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Read my words carefully: cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong. It defines both single and several things in a row as single things. It simply confuses single and several things in a row conceptually. This confusion does not agree with facts, because it equalizes time and space, thereby leaving no possibilities for time to be relative, which it obviously is. It means that facts falsify the confusion. It does not mean that facts falsify phylogenetic analysis nor phylogenetic trees, but only the confusion of time and space, that is, the notion that paraphyletic groups are not monophyletic groups (i.e., that they can be "denied"). They can be "denied" as little as facts can be denied. The "denial" of them is not only a denial of facts, but also a denial of the fundament for science, that is, single things, in favor for a recognition of kinds. It is a confusion of thing and kind that leads to recognition of kinds instead of things. That's the explanation for its loads of paradoxes. The world is full of paradoxes if one believes something that is wrong. Cladism's confusion of single things with several things in a row is not only partially wrong; it is totally wrong. It is as wrong as anything can be. Why am I not allowed to post a warning for this conceptual black hole in the beginning of cladist's explanation of the route into it?Consist (talk) 19:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is not disclaimered. You can add a section of criticisms against cladistics later in the article, but adding your disclaimer in the intro gives undue weight and violates original research and neutral point-of-view.

Additionally, please do not add the disclaimer anonymously/without logging in as a way of circumventing these warnings. That may be deemed abuse of multiple accounts. —C.Fred (talk) 20:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Concerning your first point above, the article contains no "original research" nor any "neutral-point-of-view". It is a point of view that is written by a believer (i.e., a cladist). My point of view, however, is based on my research. I have examined cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups and found it to be incompatible with facts. It means that the article here (about cladism) is a point of view, which I falsify with facts. My role in this is, of course, negliable. Cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups is incompatible with facts irrespectively of whether I say it or even exist or not.

Concerning your latter request, I will, of course, do what I can to inform people that the reason for cladism's innumerable paradoxes is that it is wrong. Not all of us want to live in a conceptual world filled with paradoxes, even if you appear to prefer to. I offer you and everyone else a conceptual world lacking paradoxes.But, I repeat, I do not criticize cladism. I merely explain that its denial of paraphyletic groups is incompatible with science (actually a denial of science). I do not deny anyone to embrace a denial of paraphyletic groups, but just to confuse it with science, because this denial and science are actually mutually exclusive. I thus deny an inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong comprehension, because it is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong. What other options do I have?Consist (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I have tried to take your disclaimer, boil down the content of it from the "this is wrong" statements, and make a criticisms section of it. Please join in the discussion at Talk:Cladistics about this section if you would like to change it. —C.Fred (talk) 22:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Finally, regarding this text in your comment above: "My point of view, however, is based on my research. I have examined cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups and found it to be incompatible with facts." That's a pretty clear admission that you're using original research in your edits. —C.Fred (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Finally? Your first comment is wrong. My disclaimer does not boil down to "this is wrong" statements, it points at research results that falsifies cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups (i.e., science). Your second comment is incomprehensible. Does the fact that I'm using original research disqualify my contribution? Isn't this original research worth anything, or am I forbidden to use it? I am, of course, interested in that it is spread, because it explains the innumerable pardoxes you mentioned above. How should we otherwise get rid of them?Consist (talk) 22:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

We can only get rid of paradoxes by improving our models of reality. Cladism's confusion of single things with several things in a row (including the simultaneous confusion of pattern and process, before and after with now, etcetera) eradicates science's progress since Aristotle. In order to understand evolution, we have to be able to differentiate pattern and process in light of this model, because both pattern and process are facts. Cladism's confusion of them is a denial of science and also the seed for denial of cladism itself. Improving our models of reality has to rest on the Linnean classification, because it is the only 4-dimensional categorization we have. It is actually a consistent categorization of phylogenies (i.e., dichotomously branching processes). This is also acknowledged in the comprehension that is called evolutionary systematics, and which is represented in the evolutionary scientific journals. My contribution is only that I have presented evidence that cladism's denial of paraphyletic goups is empirically wrong, that is, wrong. Isn't that an important fact to be included in the first sections of the definition of it? Science is not wrong. Or, has being right or wrong lost its importance? Consist (talk) 22:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

C.Fred, I understand your irritation on my claims of being right, since it is impossible to find a single true statement about reality. The exception is when you talk about conceptualization, because it concerns the tool we use to discuss reality and there is, of course, a single true description of this tool. My finding (i.e., that cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups is empirically wrong) does, however, mean that a description of conceptualization also is existentially right. The problem with being right in this sense does, however, only include discarding statements that are wrong. It cannot distinguish between statements that cannot be proven to be wrong. In this particular case, however, I prove that cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups is wrong. And since it is only contested by the Linnean classification, it leaves the Linnean classification as the winner. This reasoning is also compatible with Wittgesteins reasonings. Semantics simply has a more crucial position in comprehensions of reality than is acknowledged by cladists. Their problem is that I prove them wrong. 83.254.23.159 (talk) 23:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear C.Fred, how can you in the criticism section of cladistics (cladism) write that "Envall has argued that cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups goes against Linnean science's acceptance of them". It's not something I argue, it's a truism. They not only "goes against" each other, they are mutually exclusive - a denial and an acceptance of one and the same kind of things are, of course, mutually exclusive points of views. What Envall does, is that he falsifies cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups using empirical facts (just as any scientific testing of hypotheses). He shows that the hypothesis is wrong - paraphyletic groups actually cannot be denied without contradicting facts. The reasoning may be difficult to understand, but it does none the less qualify as a scientific truth till someone has explained the discrepancy between the denial and facts. This excludes the denial from science instead turning it into a a belief (not agreeing with facts). I thus change the wording in this section.Consist (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If it is a scientific truth, there will be multiple other sources that will agree with Envall. (The easier they are to locate and review, all the better; anything published on the Internet gives a definite advantage in access of the source material by other editors.)

Regardless, the content of the article is not a matter for your talk page. It is a matter for the talk page of the article. Discussion is ongoing there about the wording of the criticisms section. Feel free to join in the discussion after your block expires. —C.Fred (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

My statement that "denial of paraphyletic groups is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong, that is, factually wrong" is scientifically proven true. It does not necessarily mean that many, or even any other source will agree with it. Not if it dismantles them to be confused. Luckily, science is not about how many people that agree about a certain hypothesis, but about whether the hypothesis agrees with facts or not, and my statement above agrees with facts (i.e., denial of paraphyletic groups is inconsistent, self-contradictory and factually wrong). My statement is thus a truth irrespectively of how many people that agree with it until someone has explained (explained away) the discrepance between the denial and facts. What do you, C.Fred, suggest that I shall do? Lie down and accept that cladism spreads an inconsistent, self-contradictory and erroneous teaching that denies facts and science? No, I won't?Consist (talk) 12:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have all the time in the world, since the denial of paraphyletic groups will continue to be wrong for ever. I'll return tomorrow, the next day, the next week, the next month, the next year and so on... My earning of my wage isn't coupled to my struggle to lift truth into the definition of cladism in Wikipedia.Consist (talk) 12:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You have been blocked for 12 hours

You have been temporarily blocked from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

The encyclopedia has processes and procedures to ensure that every notable viewpoint upon a subject is included in the article; this ensures that the project is not derailed by trying to incorporate every interest groups preferred representation of their viewpoint. This policy, known as Neutral point of view, is non-negotiable, and repeated infraction will result in accounts who violate it being stopped from editing. Wikipedia makes no claim on the "truth" of a subject in part or in whole, but only that the viewpoints provided are verifiable in other reliable sources. Please take the advice of editors who are trying to incorporate your viewpoint into the article, and not remove content which indicates a viewpoint different than your own. Further disruption from this account will likely result in further and extended blocks. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

As you conclude above, neutrality is impossible. Every statement has to take its stand in some viewpoint, The contribution I was blocked for took its stand in a scientific view. I merely brought to the attention in the definition of cladistcs that its denial of paraphyletic groups is a simultaneous denial of facts and science. This is an important disclaimer in the definition of cladistics, since its denial of facts and science isn't immediately obvious and that it therefore may be confused with science. I hope a scientific view may qualify as a neutral point of view, since it at least acknowledges agreeable facts (like the relativity of time). The contribution was furthermore provided with references to verifiable sources. Finally, I have not removed any content "which indicates a different viewpoint than my own", but have instead been removed from the article as a different viewpoint on the concept the article defines. The problem with concepts like these, i.e., beliefs, is who will be allowed to define them, since they look different from the inside than from the outside (as you also conclude above). The problem with my contribution on this particular concept is that it denies my viewpoint. It actually denies all viewpoints that look at it, since it believes itself to be The Natural Viewpoint. However, don't worry. I will continue to contest cladistic's denial of my viewpoint (i.e., science) despite any blockings or other obstacles. Consist (talk) 22:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You do not understand how Wikipedia works

Please see the following guidelines, essays, and rules. Whatever else you get out of them, at least you may be able to see why others react the way they do to you:

• Conflict of interest: You are pushing your own research.
• Ownership: You are attempting to own articles.
• Soapbox: You are treating classification articles and their talk pages as your own forum, and you act as if you are on a crusade for the truth.
• You have shown several characteristics of tenditious editing: You have been blocked for edit warring, you returned to the same article after your block was over, you challenge reversion of your edits, you say the same things over and over without convincing anyone, and you do not thread your talk page posts. You offer unintelligible non sequiturs on talk pages as explanations for your actions.
• Undue weight and Fringe science: You are putting undue weight on one study (which happens to be your own), out of proportion to its importance.
• Sockpuppeting: You have evaded a ban with Consists to further an edit war.
• Talk pages: It is very bad form to alter the comments of others, as you did on Talk:Linnaean taxonomy. It is also bad form to insert comments into stale threads.

In short, to this point, you have been a classic disruptive editor. You do not seem to understand the point of Wikipedia or how to operate within it, nor have you shown any interest in learning. Please reconsider. J. Spencer (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As usual, Spencer is totally wrong. He has only been correct in the point that no concept equals another concept (which, by the way, cladistics don't agree with). I'm not "pushing my own research", but only trying to incorporate the fact that cladistics is empirically wrong, that is, wrong, in the definition of it. Cladism arrives to the conclusion that relationship is relative (see Reif in Cladistics) instead of that time is relative, whereas science arrives to the opposite conclusion. Now, which of them (the conflicting cladistics and science) is right? Spencer obviously have a limited ability or don't want to understand this fact, why should his limitation be allowed to hinder the inlusion of this fact in the article? Consist (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Spencer uses a classical trick in discussions you cannot win: attack the person instead of the issue. The problem here is cladistics discrepancy with facts, not anyone's behaviour, it is this that gives rise to the behaviour of all actors. The actors are definitely split by that some of them deny facts, whereas others deny this denial. Those that deny facts want to hide facts, whereas those that deny the denial want to show facts. In this matter, there is no neutral position. You can only acknowledge or deny facts, there is not in between. Private persons can choose whichever of these positions, but encyclopedias like Wikipedia of course has to acknowledge facts. Will Spencer never understand this fact? Consist (talk) 08:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not attacking you, but your actions. What you think is your own business, but how you act affects others. You do not get to exist in a vacuum, but are part of a community. If you want to continue to edit here, you should change your actions. Otherwise, you are heading for a block, as you are treating articles as your own forums, holding court in talk pages as if we are all supposed to bow to your wisdom, and inserting uncritical approvals of your own work. The bottom line is if you cannot make a positive contribution, you are not welcome. If you choose to not respect Wikipedia, its guidelines, or its users, then I suggest you go somewhere else. J. Spencer (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Spencer. I cannot make any sense of your reasoning above. The first sentence is wrong. Surely, you're attacking me. It is actually what you're doing in all the reasoning. The reasoning itself contains attacks such as that I should demand someone to "bow for my wisdom" when I only demand a falsification to be taken as a falsification. I do not demand anything else than that Wikipedia acts as an encyclopedia. My struggle to incorporate the fact that the cladistics "denial" of paraphyletic groups is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong is not, as you have suggested, an attempt "get me through the night", which cladism actually instead is, but only an information that this is the case. Spencer seems to have severe problems to understand the meaning of 'fact' as well as to distinguish concepts. People like Spencer should actually be kept as far from encyclopedias as possible.Consist (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, let me rephrase a bit. The issue I have with your editing is not criticism of cladistics. Since there has been criticism of cladistics, there should be a discussion in the article. The issue is how you are going about introducing this. Editing on Wikipedia is like driving. Just as a person who wishes to drive must follow the laws if he or she does not want to get arrested or to have that privilege revoked, someone who wishes to edit on Wikipedia must follow the rules as well or risk blocking or banning. One does not drive over everyone else's work to promote their own.

This reasoning falls on that I have been trying to convey this message about cladistics since 1994, that is, for 14 years, which have squezeed me out of universities and almost ruined me. I simply have no tolerance left for cladistics or cladists. By now, I know that they will do anything (and I mean anything) to hide my message (like you try to). After 14 years of thinking about this issue, I am, however, well prepared. By now, I know exactly what the situation looks like. I have straightened out the concepts and the relation between them and reality. I now just have to enforce an acceptance of facts. My points will, of course, be arrived to sooner or later, since they agree with facts, but I of course would like to be the one who brings them into light. Maybe, I'm also the right person to do it, since I'm not afraid of either Farris or Nelson. Small shots like Spencer are not important in this issue. The big battle will be with Farris, Nelson, Kluge, Hull, Pleijel, Bremer, Sundberg, deQuieroz, Carpenter ..... It lies ahead. For now, however, cladism's denial of paraphyletic groups are falsified. Consist (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

It may be that I am explaining myself poorly, and you are probably tired of me at any rate. I offer the following proposal: I will suggest on the administrative noticeboards that someone else explain to you what it is that you should do for optimal results. After that, you will not hear from me again. J. Spencer (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm never tired with anyone. The difference between me and cladists is that I discuss the issue and not the persons. No person is attached to an opinion. I also don't have to be right in all discussions, and can change my mind. In this issue, however, I will continue enforcing my message until someone shows me to be wrong. I am totally prepared on being dragged in the shit by cladists. I will, however, continue expressing my message from the shit if it becomes necessary, (or change my mind if it becomes necessary). I have recently got economical support that can carry me for at least 1/2 year more. I must say that you, Spencer, reveals a sympathetic side above, but I'm not open to any "proposal" in this issue. I will enforce facts until they are accepted. It is for all of ours' best. Consist (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I have written the following report, as it is clear that either I am not explaining the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia to you well enough that you improve as an editor, or you are a disruptive editor who is not interested in changing. All I will say in closing is that it's too bad if you'd rather go your own way than abide by the rules and principles of Wikipedia; working outside the lines will just lead to frustration for you and other editors. J. Spencer (talk) 04:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I abide to any rules that respect all humans equally; allows lives to be lived, opinions to be spoken and facts to be told. Those that don't, I will actively work against. I'm, however, not a "disruptive editor who is not interested in changing", but a cunstructive editor who is interested in that Wikipedia becomes a consistent and correct encyclopedia. I just have to force my way through cladism's confused fogs to convey the fact that shows its fundamental assumption to be wrong. The focus is not on me, where Spencer tries to place it, but on cladism. I'm discussing the concept 'cladism', whereas Spencer's discussing me. I'm not a prominent person", as Sjö, who also discusses me, correctly stated. I'm just an ordinary person in the middle of nowhere highlighting a fact that a lot of prominent persons appears to have missed, because this failure leads to an inconsistent, self-contradictory and erroneous comprehension. I try to save our kids from being led astray. Consist (talk) 07:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess we'll just have to agree concerning this whole thing, you regarding me and me regarding you, that a horse can be led to water, but it can't be forced to drink. If I have been unduly harsh with you, I am sorry. It's been interesting. J. Spencer (talk) 23:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. That's exactly my point. I just want to clarify that cladistics (i.e., cladism) is inconsistent, self-contradictory and wrong. I am fully aware that I can't make people accept either facts or science; I can only show that what they are doing is neither correct nor science. If they choose to continue on an erroneous track, well, it's a decision they have the right to take. I'm not mainly aiming at the already lost, but at all young students that they continuously lure into their paranoia. Concerning your behaviour towards me, it's no problems. It is exactly he kind of behaviour I expected from believers in an erroneous belief. I actually expect it to become even worse when the big shots get involved, but it looks as if I have to continue provoking them to do. I will thus continue correcting Wikipedia in the points it is wrong, like for example that the journal Cladistics is scientific journal. It can't be per definition, since cladistics deny the foundation for science, i.e., single things, and thus science per definition. It actually denies all things and groups of things that exist. It only acnowledges groups of things that include ancestors, which, of course, are gone. How they find such groups (including things that do not exist) at the first place is a mystery, exactly the same mystery as their definition that time is not relative. It seems as they have decided to explore the Wonderland, but it doesn't mean that Wikipedia ought to help them luring young people into following them in this "vain search to define the indefinable" as Darwin called it, or "in the donkey's chase for the carrot in front of his eyes" as I like to call it. These expressions are thus synonymous (obs. not equal). Scientific evolutionary research, properly called phylogenetics, does not deny paraphyletic groups, but, on the contrary, uses all monophyletic groups to discuss evolution. I will thus continue straightening up Wikipedia. The battle is just commenced. Haven't you asked yourself why cladism should have access to almost a whole book in Wikipedia to define their belief, wherein they even try to delete criticism of the way they present it. Is it even proper that a cladist writes the definition? Does Wikipedia similarly allow creationists to write the definition of creationism? Believers, contrary to scientists, are subjective per definition. It means that they and non-believers have different views on their belief. Cladists consistently tries to confuse their belief with phylogenetics, and science in a generic sense, although it is a totally separate matter. Phylogenetics does not require an inconsistent, self-contradictory and erroneous denial of paraphyletic groups. This denial is, instead, the boundary between science and faith.Consist (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:PhyloCode

I have reverted this edit at Talk:PhyloCode since it is a personal attack and doesn't discuss how to improve the article, per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines espescially the first two sentences.Sjö (talk) 10:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sjö! I welcome all attempts to spread my message. I have, however, already discussed this issue with deQuieroz and he has given me right. Initially, he claimed that also Hennig is right, but since I told him that Hennig's comprehension does not agree with facts, he interrupted the dialogue. He's probably stuck in an personal schizophrenia at the moment, the same as you will enter sooner or later. You should go back to school and try to understand math, physics, chemistry etcetera, that is, science, and not strive to deny it. Science is the only comprehension that agres with facts. Your case (to deny facts) is lost in the moment it is commenced. Consist (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Please reconsider your fifth sentence above, and explain to me how that is not a personal attack. —C.Fred (talk) 02:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear C.Fred, if you mean the one including schizophrenia, it is not an attack, it is an assumption followed by an expectation. They are based on the fact that cladistics (which I prefer to call cladism) holds two incompatible opinions at the same time, that is, that single things both exist and not exist, instead of science's opinion that they exist. De Quieroz has personally told me that he has advocated Ashlock's (i.e., also mine) opinion in private, but Hennig's in public for reasons I don't want to mention. This agrees fully with the definition of schizophrenia as far as I understand. That's furthermore why cladism arrives to the conclusion that relationship instead of time is relative, which obviously is wrong. If you mean the succeeding sentence, it is a prescription for a cure of this condition. Consist (talk) 07:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I can expound on the issue above by an analogy. I'm trying to explain orthogonality and that space and time are orthogonal. An orthogonality is, for example, white and black. The relation between them can be illustrated with the color cube. In this cube, white and black are at the ends of one diagonal, and the edges that originates from them are red, green and blue respectively their complementaries cyan, magenta and yellow. White and blue are thus complementary contraries, or orthogonalities (orthogonals?), similarly to RGB and CMY. In this way, conceptualization functions as a tool to discuss reality consistently and correct using such orthogonal relationships. Now, cladism instead equalizes space and time (corresponding to white and black) thereby denying orthogonality in general and then denies paraphyletic groups (corresponding to for example black) specifically. This comprehension makes all involved orthogonal concepts ambiguous. Single things "becomes" both ancestors and descendants "at the same time", both present and past, and both dead and alive, and single points in time "becomes" both before and after "at the same time". Now, cladists claim that this is a (the?) "natural" comprehension, whereas I claim that it is conceptual confusion. The existential phenomenon they forget, actually deny by their denial of paraphyletic groups, is present, which, maybe surprisingly, denies their denial of it by the fact that time is relative. Present is simply undeniable, since it exists. Conceptually, it is the middle between the orthogonal space and time. This particular cladistic conceptual confusion is thus a consistent schizophrenic miscomprehension of conceptualization as well as of reality. Its error is that it assumes that kinds exist instead of things.Consist (talk) 08:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

At the core of this issue lies the fact that the smallest particle displays both wave and particle properties. This state is consistently interpreted as that the smallest "particle" is neither a particle nor a wave. Cladism instead interprets it as the smallest particle is both a particle and a wave. It means that cladism acknowledges what in logic is called "the excluded middle" instead of excludes it. Cladism is thus consistent conceptualization up-side-down, that is, consistently inconsistent conceptualization. Such inconsistency is difficult to understand, to clarify and to nail. Envall has begun by falsifying it empirically and providing an explanation of its error. We must not forget that this is the core of this discussion. Consist (talk) 09:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Science and cladism are actually orthogonal to each other: science being totally consistent and cladism being totally inconsistent. The difference between them is that science partitions reality across time, whereas cladism partitions reality across and along time, and whereas present does exist, it is only compatible with 'before' and 'after', not only with 'before' or 'after'. That's actually the reason why Aristotle and his contemporaries invented our consistent conceptualization using generics, specifics and specific differences, that is, orthogonalities and their complementary properties, which Linné later applied in his hierarchical systematization of orthogonalities. Why tear down this conceptual building when the alternatives are just as inconsistent as they were 2,500 years ago (although cladists tries to hide this fact)? Better is to realize that illustrations of phylogenies are process models, not patterns. It escapes all consistency problems (paradoxes as C.Fred called them above) emanating from interpreting them as patterns. Consist (talk) 12:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2008

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on User talk: Consist. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Do not accuse other editors of schizophrenia, either current or potential. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue is explained above. Consist (talk) 07:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I also would like to draw attention to that the users(editors?) Sjö and Spencer consistently discuss me instead of the issue, that is, my inflicted disclaimer about cladistics' anti-scientific foundation. Isn't this a too important part of the definition of cladistics to be hidden in a criticism section? It actually isn't a criticism at all, but only an establishment of a factual property of cladistics. Why should it be hidden in a criticism section? Has it been forced there by cladists, or are more people than cladists ashamed of it? How long do the opponents of this fact think they can keep it under the mat? Consist (talk) 22:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The #1 issue right now is if you will work together with other editors on the articles, and follow the rules and guidelines that J. Spencer and others have mentioned. That will sometimes mean that you have to compromise to reach consensus. I'm sure that you can contribute to many biology-related articles, but will you follow the rules of the Wikipedia community?Sjö (talk) 06:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I will "work together with editors" in any media as long as they accept facts. If they don't, I will enforce facts anyway. A compromise between accepting facts and denying them is an impossibility, and thus also a consensus between them. This is not my opinion, but a fact. This is actually the reason why Aristotle and company invented our conceptualization that cladistics presently "denies". I can surely contribute to many biology-related articles, but not as long as conceptualization is "denied" in biological systematics. The confusion that underlies this denial is what I'm presently trying to resolve. However, the facts I'm drawing attention to is not wanted, and I therefore have to push them into the light over and over again. Denying facts is not a sensible option. It actually has to argue against Einsteins explanation of the relation between time and space: the title ought to be Biological systematists deny Einsteins proved deduction that time is relative, instead inventing a new kind of group called clade. That's what lies ahead of cladists. (But, I presume that by then there are no cladists anymore). Consist (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy by inserting commentary or your personal analysis into an article, as you did to Cladistics, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.
Quite frankly, I don't "believe" one way or the other in/against cladistics. What I do see is text being inserted into the article that includes synthesis beyond what the sources say—and worse, added to the introduction of the article. Further, based on this talk page comment you made today, I find myself unable to continue to assume good faith in the motives behind your edits. In that regard, I invite you to prove me wrong and contribute constructively—within the guidelines—to Wikipedia. —C.Fred (talk) 02:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't care whether you block me from editing in Wikipedia or not. I'm not doing this for my own sake (I'm actually disqualifying myself from any positions at universities, since they are dominated by cladists), but for the sake of sense and science. Cladism is the same black hole for sense and science independently of whether you allow me to inflict explanations of it or not. The only difference is that humanity will have more problems getting out of it the more we give way for it. Envall has shown that cladism is empirically wrong, that is wrong (i.e., not agreeing with facts). Now, being wrong means that one draws erroneous conclusions. The main erroneous conclusion in cladism is that there should be one unambiguous classification to be found, in terms of clades. This is totally wrong. There is no such classification to be found. The reason for the lack of one is that there are orthogonal properties. In this context orthogonal can simply be understood as independent. Everone knows that any partitioning means that there are intermediates which cannot be placed in any of the partitioned classes, and the factual existence of orthogonal properties means that there may be other classes overlapping these intermediates. It means that such overlapping classes are ambiguous, and thus that there has to be ambiguous classes. If we partition reality into only one class, for example clades, it does not turn reality unambiguous, but instead means that this class is ambiguous. The ambiguity may be difficult to discern for confused, but this is what Envall explains. If one cannot understand this mandatory ambiguity anyhow, I can add that it in cladism has been transferred to the "coding of properties into characters and character states", which is the actual classification in cladism. Biological systematists will have just the same problems to agree about this coding as they have had about classification according to the Linnean system, because it is the same problem. The only difference between cladism's erroneous belief and the Linnean consistent and correct classification is that cladism erroneously believes that there is an unambiguous classification to be found, whereas the Linnean classification admits that there is none to be found. Cladism thus offers a goal for a work, although a Sisofys work like chasing the carrot in front of the donkey's eyes (which can be preferable if it is well paid). However, the largest difficulty with explaining this factual situation is distinguishing cladism from phylogenetics. I would say that cladism is an erroneous conceptual approach within phylogenetics (i.e. an extremism), where phylogenetics is the science that deals with processes that occurs in a much wider time scale than those we normally look at. Phylogenetics is not in conflict with either facts or science, but cladism is. The conflict resides in its "denial" of all things and groups of things that exist by its denial of paraphyletic groups. This "denial" cannot possibly be compatible (or made compatible) with science's fundamental acknowledgement of things (that exist). It is actually a "denial" of present. Now, many cladists (like Spencer) think that this discrepancy is insignificant, but nothing could be more wrong. It is actually the largest discrepancy to science one can possibly find; it is the orthogonality (i.e. the contrary) to science. This is, however, not the worst problem with it, the worst problem is instead that it does not agree with facts, since it means that it is not only contrary to science, but moreover wrong. Taken together, it means that cladism is totally and ultimately wrong. It is as wrong as anything can ever be. It beats, for example, Lamarck by horse-lengths. It is the ultimate error. It is wrong in every corner. If I have had responsability for Wikipedia, I would have kept cladists short. They will consistently strive to confuse concepts, since it is the nature of cladism. It eats concepts. 83.254.23.159 (talk) 22:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Difficult to understand that cladism is wrong?

Is it so difficult to understand that cladism's sole recognition of groups containing ancestors is incompatible with science's sole recognition of single things, and that the reason for this incompatibility actually is cladism's "denial" of groups that do not include their ancestors? A group containing an ancestor is, of course, incompatible with the existing members of this group only, and only, if the group consisting of the existing members are "denied". The two kinds of groups are not incompatible in themselves in any other sense than that the latter is "denied", and this lack of incompatibility means that the "denial" does not agree with facts. The latter is instead factually a part of the former. Is this so difficult to understand? Consist (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

You have been indefinitely blocked

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for repeated abuse of editing privileges. If you believe this block is unjustified you may contest this block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

I note that I originally blocked you a fortnight ago (for 12 hours, extended to 48 hours by another admin) for the same matter. In the meantime you have continued editing in the same WP:SOAP and WP:OR violating manner, and I consider now that you have no intent to abide by WP's policies, rules and guidelines. I have therefore blocked you from editing WP from this account. LessHeard vanU (talk) 08:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity: Envall falsified the cladistic denial of paraphyletic groups by showing that this equalizes time and space in contradiction to the proven relativity of time (to space). If there are persons out there that doesn't understand this fact, they should at least not be allowed to delete it. It is analogous to deleting Einstein's theory that time is relative (which thus has been proven). Time is relative independently of whether cladistics define that it can't be. It is cladism that is wrong, not time that isn't relative. Please, please, use your sense. Consist (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Mark t young that deleted the fact that Envall has falsified the cladistic denial of paraphyletic groups obviously could sweep facts under the mat again. Envall showed that cladistics is an inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically erroneous confusion of process and pattern, I couldn't see any comments from Mark t young on the matter. It is obviously easier for some persons to edit articles than for others independently of their reasons for it. I think Wikipedia should be ashamed for this lack of back-bone. The fact that Mark t young deleted is still a fact. But,...Wikipedia doesn't seem to care about such petitesses. Consist (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe 'Mark t young' can straighten out the relation between time and space? Envall's demonstrating that cladism erroneously equalizes them, because their relation is orthogonal. Their relation can definitely not be both equal and orthogonal at the same time, and equalization of them is falsified by the relativity of time. It means that cladism is wrong independently of what that is right. Cladism is thus proven wrong by facts. But, I guess this fact is not important enough to be included in the definition of it. Consist (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Einstein comprehended our conceptualization as "natural" and arrived to the conclusion that time is relative. Hennig comprehended our conceptualization as "unnatural" and arrived to the opposite conclusion, that is, that relationship is relative. Einstein was right and Hennig was wrong. The ironic in this controversy is that we knew that Einstein was right before Hennig was wrong. Hennig took up the battle against Einstein's theory after it had been proven. More ironically, I'm not allowed to convey this ironic situation in the definition of Hennig's erroneous comprehension. Obviously, there are a lot of people that don't want time to be relative to space, or at least don't want this fact to be known. Consist (talk) 13:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

• The only agenda that led to this block was your own. Because you used Wikipedia as a soapbox and a place to publish your original research, your account was blocked. Technically, the only reason you have privileges of editing your user talk page right now is to request an unblock. If you continue to use this page as a soapbox, you may find your rights to edit it withdrawn as well. —C.Fred (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

An unblock for what? The truth is all I have to give, and it doesn't seem wanted. I'm no hypocrite, I speak out. I also understand orthogonality, which obviously is more than the cladists and (including?) the involved editors at Wikipedia do. To be honest, I don't care the least what you do with my information. It is a truth anyway, and it will remain so forever and ever. The leading cladists have to choose between challenging my message and silencing it out. However, the first will imbarass them and the second will give me right. They are thus caught in a trap they can only escape by personal attacks on me, that is, the same strategy as the message's antagonists at this site have used. I convey the truth, and the antagonists to the truth tries to choke the messenger. It is a classical strategy. I do, however, think that it is too late. I already have made it easier to understand that paraphyletic groups are undeniable, because they are more fundamental than holophyletic groups are. Present cannot be denied, because it is more fundamental than a confusion of present and past is. Linné was just as great as Einstein was, but paraphylydeniers (originally called cladists) fails to understand it instead denying them both. Too bad for the paraphylydeniers. I am proud for my continuing contribution (despite being blocked), I hope you are too. My only remaining problem is all young students that will be lured into cladism's conceptual black hole without being warned. Therefore, I will continue editing the article the same way as I have for as long as I can foresee. I cannot stop informing the public about the truth just because an open encyclopedia tries to keep the truth out of the encyclopedia. I bet you will realize that your mission is impossible. Consist (talk) 21:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Again to be honest, I haven't expected any other reception of my message than me being blocked. After all, I'm actually saying that all inductionists are wrong per definition, and they compose about 1/3 of all people. However, I don't do it to be cruel, but because they took the bold step to deny right. If they only had preferred their opinion, I would never have bothered entering this battle, but when being denied, I couldn't escape it. If I had been wrong, I would immediately have changed my mind, but as far as I can understand, I am right and they are wrong. Denial of paraphyletic groups are falsified by facts. If, as the person that deleted this sentence in the criticism section, this had been an irrelevant point since noone denies paraphyletic groups, then the sentence would have made no difference at all. No, the truth is that this is the cornerstone for extremist phylogenetics, that is, cladism, and therefore extremely important. Wikipedia obviously couldn't stand the pressure of conveying the truth against a mass psychosis. Consist (talk) 22:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(Wikipedia actually stood up for a couple of days. Was this thanks to Ed Johnston? If so, he will now have a lot of problems reverting back to an acknowledgement of a blocking of me, hopefully against his conviction. I see some lights in the tunnel). Consist (talk) 22:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Note

I do not have the least doubt that this block is justified: Wikipedia is supposed to represent what is in the literature, especially secondary sources. Instead, user Consist is arguing Truth rather than reality. However, there are mitigating circumstances as on pages controlled by the Tree-of-Life project many do pretty much the same: they argue Their Truth and are not willing to consider any other viewpoint, no matter how well supported it may be in the literature. It is not rare to find established users who could not write a NPoV sentence to save their lives. The main reason that user Consist is getting on so poorly here is that his Truth is in the minority compared to the Truth of other users: it is out of fashion. - Thistle087 (talk) 06:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)