User talk:ForgottenManC/Archive 1

Dubai Public Library

A public library system of a major city is certainly notable - A US county library system may not be notable, but Dubai is one of the most well known cities around the world. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

A lot - New York Public Library, Brooklyn Public Library, Houston Public Library, and many more WhisperToMe (talk) 02:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• Yup - for instance Tokyo Metropolitan Library - however keep in mind the Dubai library site I found is in English (is there an Arabic section?) *and* Arabic - AFAIK the actual working language in Dubai is English WhisperToMe (talk) 02:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

ForgottenManC is an unfair Wikipedia user. He changed my recent addition to the Balaklava High School page and accused me of vandalizing it. I did not vandalize, i was simply adding true facts to the page that i know are true as i am a former student. Looking at other comments about ForgottenManC it seems he is unfair to many people and doesn't know his place. Please ForgottenManC be more careful before you make accusations about people and change their edits. Thankyou —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.229.23 (talk) 01:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Northeast Ohio Conference template

Nice work on the Northeast Ohio Conference template! Thanks for putting it together. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Albany

yes, the point of any article is to have a balanced view. Many of the University pages seeems to be turning into advertisement for those institutions. I added that 1 line a few weeks ago and was just recently deleted, while nobody deleted any good ranking even when they are without source. Compress stuff that are without citations or out of date, not delete ranking from a internationaly published magazine with good citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baboo (talk • contribs) 18:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Wessagusset

Can we discuss your issues with Wessagusset Colony? I'd like to work through what your issues are to make a better article. I see that you have cited Dr. Dempsey's work as being possibly unreliable. Is there any way that I can argue this? It's written by a Phd. and a professor at Brown and he has 23 pages of bibliography and citations. I can flip to pulling those and doing all of the article references that way, but it's a long hard slog and otherwise quite a nice book. What I really wanted Dempsey for is to balance out the otherwise too many Charles Allen citations. While he is relatively famous on this topic (I've seem him cited a number of times in sources that I was reviewing for this article), he was also writing a century ago and I wanted to have the article have as many modern historians as possible.

In the mean time, I have softened the wording of the "provoking" claim, but kept the "mismanaging" claim since I think that's justified in the texts. (Not just on the page and that specific reference, but that was as good a place as any. If it needs multiple refs, that should be possible if I work through my notes.) JRP (talk) 15:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

There has to be better sources than these two. One is over 100 years old and the other is a self-published copy. Now if the original research of an Ivy league professor was deemed even semi-worthwhile, it would have picked up someone to publish it. I am sure there is a reason for this, but can we not come up with a better source? In terms of the 'mismanaged' I think you're using a really loaded term that is entirely subjective. Why not just say what you mean by mismanaged? I did not find that pages 12-15 should have been paraphrased with that term. ForgottenManC (talk) 19:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I do clearly say what I mean by mismanaged below in the article, but I was summarizing for WP:LEAD. If you think that the term doesn't satisfy WP:NPOV, then I'll remove it but I find it to be a relatively succinct explanation for the situation. As for the sources, I believe that you are being overly critical. The self-published one I understand your concern and I'll remove the citations to that book. As mentioned above, the book has 23 pages of references and I'm trying to track down some of those in libraries I have access to. I've also emailed the author for help with this. That said, the book doesn't advance a position and appears via the "smell test" to be a legitimate work of scholarship. As for the other, WP:RS doesn't have a time limit save common sense. I had other, more recent sources, but they generally quoted Allen or listed him as a reference and I was trying to "go to the source" and cite his works directly. He happens to have been a major writer on 17th century New England and write a considerable amount on this particular region. JRP (talk) 01:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Mismanaged is the wrong word and is incredibly misleading to the situation. As some of such great connection to the scholars of this point, I would imagine you have something better to back up this article that what is available from a full text search on Google books.

What word do you feel best encompasses the situation? JRP (talk) 06:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well can we agree that they never really had much food to begin with, then they tried to steal food? Inability to secure a self-sufficient food source? I am not sure that they can mismanage something that they don't have? ForgottenManC (talk) 02:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Apology

I didn't realize Huggle had given you a level 4 warning. It automatically assigns warning levels based on previous warnings on the talk page. I was mistaken in not looking more closely at the warning and I apologize. Consider that warning null and void. RainbowOfLight ^Talk 03:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Raa Middle School

High schools are automatically notable. Middle schools and elementary schools may or may not be notable, depending on the available references. A school that is not notable should never be deleted, however, and therefore should never be prodded or put up for AfD. Instead, the rule is that a not-notabel school is redirected to the school district -- Leon County Schools, in this case. So let me try to add some references, and if notability cannot be shown, it should be redirected, not prodded. -- Eastmain (talk) 20:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

• I think that the references that have been added to Raa Middle School are enough to demonstrate notability. -- Eastmain (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for finally taking action on this. As a reminder, you suggested this article was not worth saving. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 23:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Sterling HS alumnus

I'll look for a source that confirms Ken Kelley as captain (not MVP as you put it) of the 1982 Penn State national championship football team. Your tone on my talk page, however, was a little unnecessary at the end. Don't assume I didn't read the edit description. I did, but I'm not a walking Wikipedia MOS memorizer so I wasn't aware of the exact procedures.

But speaking of what not to do on Wikipedia, it's improper form and gives off bad impressions when you blank your own talk page, especially when there have been warnings posted on it (it shows the user has both read and ignored said warnings). If you want to "start fresh" then archive it. -Jrcla2 ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to take any threats or warnings seriously from somebody who's equivalent to a newborn on WP. Thanks, but no thanks. Good luck with future editing. -Jrcla2 ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Timberlane on the dump

Okay, I'm impressed. How did you find that link to the EPA document just a minute after you undid my revision to the Timberlane Regional High School article? Seeing as the anonymous editor who had first put the info up had also just vandalized an article at a neighboring town, I was doubtful about the claim. Thanks for fixing it up. --Ken Gallager (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I undid it only after finding the document, so I probably should have just edited it straight up, my apologies if that was the improper sequence for fixing. I just tried a few different syntaxes when searching on Goog. Thanks for your diligence! -- ForgottenManC (talk) 18:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Merritt Island High School

Please familiarize yourself with WP:NN before reverting article. Person must have an article before being inserted under "notables." Also, allowing the school to say it has unlimited championships without any details or footnotes is simply WP:BOOSTER. Student7 (talk) 13:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I see you keep reverting the addition of Joe Gayton as an alumnus on Merritt Island High School. Please keep in mind that notable alumni do not follow the same WP:N guidelines as Wikipedia pages. That is to say, some alumni may be notable without Wikipedia pages. This is an error I once made myself. If you review WP:WPSCH and WP:WPSCH/AG, which are more pertinent for school pages that will give you an idea. Basically, any alumni with a Wikipedia page is inherently notable. If they do not have one, that does not disqualify them from the list. However, it does mean that they must be cited by reliable sources as having some notability and being an alumni of the school. In this specific case, Gayton is clearly listed in Wikipedia for his projects, which I believe demonstrates his notability. If you disagree, perhaps you would be willing to defer to WP:PRESERVE and take your issues to the Talk page where we can try to get others' input. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 13:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I've allowed nn before with footnotes, particularly for tiny rural schools with hardly any graduates. Little hard to make that stretch for MI, but okay if you get footnote. Championships still need some kind of documentation rather than vague claims. I might allow a district championship for Bayside, a school with no history, but hardly for MI. Big schools normally win local championships rendering them meaningless.Student7 (talk) 13:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The footnote tag was not there, that is why I requested it. Please leave it there and let the community offer pull up the reference, don't just delete it post haste. Please, please read and be familiar with WP:WPSCH/AG and if you have issues with alumni notability guidelines take it up there. Also, please note that I did not add championship info, simply removed whoever put in all of the inline citation messages. For ease of reading, I added the unreferenced section tag and removed the reference request, as should have been done originally. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 13:58, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Joseph Jenkins Roberts

The Maury H.S. information in this entry is simply wrong. Matthew Fontaine Maury High School wasn't founded until 1911, 35 years after Roberts' death. Maury himself was only 23 years old when Roberts emigrated to Africa, so no high school was named after Maury at that time. There were no true public schools in Norfolk in the early 1800s. For these reasons and a general understanding of the time, I doubt the Norfok Academy story as well. It would be remarkable for an African-American to have attended a Southern, white private school in the early 1800s. If it is true... and it is at least possible that it is... that alone is a fantastic story. But the reference can't be trusted, based on the Maury ascertion, which is silly on its face.Ruedetocqueville (talk) 18:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, the source seems to be based on missed paraphrase from the book, VIRGINIA'S NINTH PRESIDENT: Joseph Jenkins Roberts. Still would prefer a citation tag for a few weeks to see if someone can fill it in before removing, unless proof is given that it is incorrect. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

You win

If you want the version with the infobox inexplicably removed, you got it.  Doulos Christos ♥ talk  01:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Duly noted, added the infobox, but kept the 2mos+ worth of edit history in tact. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This is your "2mos+ worth of edit history". Hardly seems worth the time taken to discuss it IMHO. And not a source to be had.  Doulos Christos ♥ talk  01:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Adding conversation line

From user's page: Hi, if you have issues with specific edits to the CGHS page, please revert them individually and include and explanation that address why. If an editor has already explained the revision that you are changing, perhaps you'd want to address them in the Talk page of the article before reverting it. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 01:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I have issues with most of that article. It's been vandalized out of control. I think I finally found the last good version. The one you chose had the infobox removed, etc. Doulos Christos ♥ talk 01:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that there have been intermediate edits of value that you are reverting on a wholesale level. Tackle the existing article as is and fix it to keep the history in tact. I'd appreciate not having to redo my edits and reexplain them. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 01:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Rollback

I have 1 granted rollback rights to your account; the reason for this is that after a review of some of your contributions, I believe I can trust you to use rollback correctly by using it for its intended usage of reverting vandalism, and that you will not abuse it by reverting good-faith edits or to revert-war. For information on rollback, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback and Wikipedia:Rollback feature. If you do not want rollback, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Good luck and thanks. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 03:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Grassfield Assessment

I was sort of helping the editor of the Grassfield HS page get started, so I've been keeping an eye on the page. Out of curiosity, what's your stance on the list of facilities in that article per the Talk page and how it stands now. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 12:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Lists should always be converted to prose if possible. Have a look at the manual of style and The GA Criteria. The most important thing to add though is depth. More information, more references, pictures, history. Every fact needs to be referenced, every sentence needs to flow. The article has a long way to go but this is where it should be headed. Adam McCormick (talk) 04:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 12:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

ForgottenManC Problem

The user ForgottenManC has removed contents from hundreds pages just few days. The destruction he caused is substantial. Many Contents removed by ForgottenManC are simply facts (not opinion) which are needed. Please take a look at the contents he has deleted (click Lucas:contribs link). ForgottenManC's behavior will damage this website because censorship cannot be helpful in wikipedia. (He even removed my comments above)

ForgottenManC left a path of destruction. By reading his "contrib", I see he has ability to touch Gold and turn it dust. Some nice articles have even become a simple web link after he censored them. His favorite actions: revert, remove and label people as biased--which is very subjective. One typical example was that he put K-5 in a High school page--by copying and pasting sentence to that page: I don't think ForgottenManC has knowledge of the hundreds pages he reverted. The wikipedia was successful because web users who had knowledge about subjects wrote articles, not the ones who had no knowledge and who could censor them and destruct them. This is the beginning of the decline of Wikipedia because all the good articles have been destructed by ForgottenManC and like. I have noticed although Lucas is self-assured, he is a newbie beginning December 9, 2008. We should inform admin about this user's behavior.72.231.184.199 (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

ForgottenManC you need provide some constructive contents. After your work, page has one sentence in one section that is weird. You should add something you understand. You like delete contents.

Please see the edit summary. That section was full of information that was non-objective, biased, and belies a conflict of interest of the editor. Some information does not belong in schools articles. I kept what could be possibly proven and added a citation request. See: WP:WPSCH/AG, WP:CITE, WP:COI, WP:NPOV -- ForgottenManC (talk) 02:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Lucas 20 You can not change history in the Internet age. You kept adding irrelevant comments. What is non-subjective? If a High School provides sports like Golf, where do you get a citation? According to your logic, or more precisely illogic, it should be removed from the contents. You need provide consistency to all contents. High School publications are not online yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.231.184.199 (talk) 02:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

If a high school offers a certain sport, there is likely a school website or other publication which mentions it (like a newspaper). Most schools these days operate their own websites and have entire pages devoted to the athletic department or even a page for each team. If the publication you want to cite is not online, there is a way to cite printed material. See WP:CITET. If you don't want information you add to be removed, make sure it is properly cited and directly relevant and other editors won't remove it. --JonRidinger (talk) 00:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Read the guidelines posted above. Good luck with your edits. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2009 (UTC)72.231.184.199 (talk) 13:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the General tips quoted from guideline above:Write a strong lead. Support your contributions. Use images if possible. Use an Infobox. Avoid bulk additions. Avoid ambiguity. Be bold! -- Lucas 20, Your statement is subjective and where is you fact?

You just did not read it and delete at your will. And you pretend that is from the guideline. I just quoted guideline above, and you violated the guideline. Good luck at your misunderstanding guideline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.231.184.199 (talk) 02:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

He needs to stop and I don't know how to tell him that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolegrajewski (talk • contribs) 01:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

GAN for Jay Cooke & Company

I've reviewed the article and left notes on the talk page. I've put the nomination on hold for seven days to allow the issues to be addressed. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, here, or on the article talk page with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

GAN for Ames almanack

I've reviewed the Ames almanack article and left some comments on its review page. I'll place the nomination on hold to allow you to go through them. Thanks, Whitehorse1 01:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC).

Faith Christian School

The section on the game with Gainesville State School did make national headlines, it was featured on the ESPN website, which is about as national as one can get. I redid the reference to link to the ESPN article, though the prior reference is a blog operated by Focus on the Family, again another national organization. Contrary to your valid concerns, I do not have a conflict of interest as I have never attended the school, donated to it, nor do I or any family member work there. Thus, please do not delete the section. MHR65 (talk) 01:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your editing. Unfortunately, the problem goes well beyond that. Much of your language is not objective or verifiable, or full of weasel words, WP:WEASEL. Also, one may think it is in violation of WP:PEACOCK. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 01:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, ForgottenManC. You have new messages at Unionhawk's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Unionhawk (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry

Sorry about that i was trying to revert this edit not yours. Cheers Kyle1278 (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a smile...

Papercutbiology♫ (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Papercutbiology♫ (talk) 23:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Campbell Hall School

I'm not sure why you persist in adding names of current students to the wiki page for Campbell Hall School. Posting the names of where minors go to school is extremely dangerous, not only for them, but also for the other students who attend that school. Please refrain from posting this information. Postings of current student names will continue to be reverted, and the only vandal is you.

http://www.netsmartz.org/news/Jan03-03.htm Awr29886 (talk) 22:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

First, I did not post it. Second, the information is noted on the student's own Wikipedia page. There are lots of examples of current students on other school pages which demonstrates a precedent that the community has accepted. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Alumni is one thing. I don't see how posting where a minor goes to school is appropriate though. Why not post her home address too? I see no such listing of existing students at places like Harvard Westlake. Awr29886 (talk) 00:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Please refer to WP:WPSCH/AG#WNTI. The Wikipedia guidelines prohibit the inclusion of current pupils on school pages. Please delete at once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by El f78 (talk • contribs) 09:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The intention of that is to prevent lists, not to censor notable alumni. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 12:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Are we talking about alumni or current students here? Because if you're talking alumni, the title of that section should be changed since the section would not contain any current students. Please also note that I am not trying to 'censor' anything. El f78 (talk) 13:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:WPSCH

There is already a section in the Wikipedia school guidelines which specifically states that there should be sections where appropriate on notable alumni and teachers and there is also a long section with hints on finding sources. There has been a problem with some schools, especially in non-English speaking countries, which have added long lists of all the current members of staff, names of prefects, head boys and girls, etc. The bullet point in the "What not to include section" was designed to clarify that such material is not suitable. Why do you think it is ambiguous? Very few schools in any case have pupils and staff in their schools who are notable in their own right. Dahliarose (talk) 09:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the discussion here is more whether or not it is safe to post such information about current students, often being minors. Alumni are generally over 18, and even if not, they are not attending the specific school anymore, so no private and potentially dangerous information is supplied. However, when talking about current students, one has to wonder if it is safe to make such information publicly available, especially with notable students who are prone to stalking etc. I'm not sure whether Wikipedia has something in its policy about that. El f78 (talk) 10:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored in this way. The information is already out there. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 14:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide some examples of schools with lists of current notable students and notable teachers? I've looked at hundreds of school articles I don't think I've come across any school which has such a list, apart from schools which include unsuitable unreferenced lists, usually copied and pasted from the school website. These usually get deleted as unencyclopaedic whenever they're found. Dahliarose (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I can, but you could probably too (Google) - Saint Benedict's Preparatory School, Windward School, Saint Ann's School (Brooklyn), Myron B. Thompson Academy. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

On checking the WP School guidelines the question of teachers is in fact already covered in the section on what should go in an article:

• Notable teachers/faculty — The names of current and former teachers should only be included if they are notable in their own right (for example, they are published authors or they have won a teaching award) or they have been the subject of multiple non-trivial press coverage.
• Former headteachers/principals — A list of former headteachers/principals, with a short description of their achievements, is often useful. Long lists should be split into a separate article (such as the List of headmasters at Eton College).

This seems to me to be self-explanatory. What do you think should be changed? Regarding current students, all the examples you cite only seem to have one student, and I would guess that these are rare examples. We don't want to encourage long lists of non-notable students. I don't see any problem in including notable students, provided of course that the claim can be backed up by reliable third-party sources and there are no privacy implications. Perhaps the subject should be raised at Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools. The article guidelines are normally changed by consensus. Dahliarose (talk) 22:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Not saying its not self-explanatory, please read carefully. It could be seen as contradictory, that's all. I've seen this problem come up in my edits of school pages, which are quite expansive. I am saying it could help. I am not going to push it anymore though, let's keep it the way it is now as you've changed it. -- ForgottenManC (talk) 23:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)