User talk:Grutness/archive52

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On this day, 13 years ago...

Hey, Grutness. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Lepricavark (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! Grutness...wha? 03:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Stock and Station Agents

Hi Grutness. Watching these things with interest. I'd just like to point out that the difference between these individuals and Stock and Station agencies is that these people owned the stock and station agency businesses. Somehow a split has developed between a business owned by an individual and a business owned by an incorporated body. It isn't real. You too may have noticed the woolly-minded people reorganising categories of woolly things don't know what they are categorising about. Should we discuss this? Regards, 04:59, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Maybe... most of the people I've added to the "stock and station agent" categories either founded agencies (usually family businesses) which later became incorporated, or actually worked on the land as agents pure and simple. Certainly nowadays most S&SA's are incorporated, sometimes publicly listed, companies - and it's these companies that you'll find in the "agency" categories - but I'd say most of the people were working in the late 19th/early 20th centuries when a lot of the firms were small and privately run. I still think these categories have a worthy place on Wikipedia. I think that part of the problem is that the nominator (Marcocapelle) doesn't come from an agriculture-dominant country like NZ or Australia where these jobs are fairly high profile rural jobs. Certainly in the 19th century a lot of politicians got their first foothold as businesspeople working as stock and station agents, because it was a prominent profession. I'd understand it though if the categories failed to survive. Grutness...wha? 11:00, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't want to start a further argument but which are the ones you have added "actually worked on the land as agents pure and simple". You seem to have an interesting view of stock agents. Maybe we can go through your instances and consider them? Sorry if I may sound startled but I am. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

This puzzled me greatly too "Certainly in the 19th century a lot of politicians got their first foothold as businesspeople working as stock and station agents, because it was a prominent profession" Eddaido (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, picking at random, people like David John Gunn, Archibald Hawke, Alister Hopkinson, Patrick Grace (politician), Arthur Grimm, Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843), and James Armour Johnstone. I'm not so sure why the other part puzzles you, it's a simple fact. Many stock and station agents later became partners in the businesses they were employed by. From there, having shown business acumen and being widely known by the local farming community, it was only a small step to being chosen to run for office. Grutness...wha? 11:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

James Armour Johnstone is a perfect example. He started off as an office boy in a stock and station agency, working his way up to agent. A few years later he was offered a partnership in the company. Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843) is another example. He started off as a stock and station agent, and eventually became a company director before being appointed to the NSW legislature. Grutness...wha? 11:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Well many artists painted fences (or did other things) before they became artists. Are they known for painting fences or being an artist? Until tomorrow. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

In most case, they are famous for being artists. But if their work painting fences led to them becoming recognised as artists, then they should be categorised as both, since both are important to their notability. Jean-Michel Basquiat and Keith Haring are categorised as graffiti artists, because it was through that that they moved on to become recognised as "high-art" artists. Similarly, if someone becomes a politician on the back of their time as a stock and station agent, they should be recognised for both. Look at it this way - is Donald Trump only listed as a US President, or is he also listed as a businessman? One led to the other - you don't simply de-categorise him from one because he rose to higher prominence. The real questions are (a) was being a stock and station agent important to their notability, and (b) would it be useful to people searching for articles to know who was a stock and station agent? The answer to (a) is undoubtedly yes - most of them would not have risen to prominence if not for their work as agents. As to (b), that is a bit more hazy. But I'd say it is no more or less useful tan most of the other subdivisions of Category:People in agriculture or Category:Businesspeople by industry. Grutness...wha? 11:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I thought to let the matter rest for a few days. All I looked at before I last wrote to you was David John Gunn. How long did he work for Dalgety's? Regards, Eddaido (talk) 00:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

About eight years. Grutness...wha? 01:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not disputing it but, to your mind, what makes this subject notable? Eddaido (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, as I said above, in New Zealand and Australia - especially in the late 19th/early 20th century - stock and station agents were very notable people. They were often the most prominent people in their communities, and many used their position as stepping stones to careers in politics or in other rural businesses. In the case of Davy Gunn, he founded a successful rural enterprise as both a high country farmer and tourism pioneer, using business acumen that he picked up working as a stock and station agent. Grutness...wha? 01:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

What is the source for working for Dalgety for 8 years? I can't see an easy way to change your mind on the above except to ask you who Davey Gunn was important to stock-agent-wise. Do you borrow from your local public library and if so would you please pick up a copy of "The Rural Entrepreneurs" by Simon Ville Cambridge University Press ISBN 0 521 64265 5. If I could refer you to sections of it it would make it easier for us both.

In the distant past (1970s) the chairman of Air New Zealand, one of the nation's biggest companies, described himself as a draper (in their annual report). This does not mean as you seem to suspect that he also stood behind long counters rolling out long rolls of materials for the consideration of potential lady customers. Don't know now how many staff they had but they were bigger than most department store chains. Similarly, believe me there are / were stock agents and stock agents. 01:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

A variety of sources, but most notably from my copy of "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" (ed. J. Thomson), which notes that he worked at Dalgetys as a stock and station agent from the time he left high school (in those days, almost certainly at 15) until 1919-1920. For what it's worth, his is the weakest of the entries in the category I listed in terms of valid membership in the category - but he still qualifies.Oh, and I didn't realise you were trying to change my mind on this - I thought you simply wanted clarification. I don't see how my changing my mind is likely to make any difference to the necessity of having this category and the entries in it. If you managed to change my mind, you'll still have all of New Zealand and Australia's other editors to convince, which doesn't seem likely. any one of them who has ever been involved in the rural sector will tell you that these categories are correctly populated. Grutness...wha? 05:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

If you don't mind me page-stalking, Gunn is notable as everyone with an entry in the DNZB is considered notable (with the exception of a dozen or so representative entries, of which this isn't one). That's been tested over and again at AfD, with always the same outcome. Schwede66 05:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The Davy Gunn article isn't being questioned for its notability. The question is whether the category Category:New Zealand stock and station agents and its Aussie equivalent) is notable and if so whether it's been correctly populated. I can't see why anyone would consider it non-notable (especially if they know the relevance of stock and station agents to antipodean society), and mony of the people categorised either founded their own one-man stock and station agencies (which may later have grown into major companies), or used the social position which came with that work as a stepping-stone to public office. In Davy Gunn's case, his agency work gave him the skills to later become a pioneer of tourism in NZ. Grutness...wha? 05:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I see. Can't have read the thread properly - sorry. Schwede66 07:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

S'alright :) Grutness...wha? 13:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Grutness, I certainly do hope to get you to change your mind. Any chance that we can discuss authoritative sources as suggested above? Because this kind of thing persists quite a bit in New Zealand's WP biographies - originally caused by the way they were compiled - is there a better place to bring the whole matter to the general attention? Eddaido (talk) 00:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you mean. What "kind of thing"? We're both using authoritative sources, and almost all NZ biographies I've seen use authoritative sources, too. As for changing my mind, it seems unlikely - I still don't understand why you'd want to, or what you're actually claiming about stock and station agents. They are distinctly notable, and at the moment it seems to be only you who think otherwise.

The best place to bring something to the attention of New Zealand editors is WP:WPNZ, but at the moment I haven't seen you mention anything which needs to be brought to anyone's attention. Grutness...wha? 04:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Quote "after leaving school he had worked briefly as a clerk for a stock and station agency before deciding a desk job didn't suit him" The Land of Doing Without by Julia Bradshaw. "After working for Dalgety and Company's stock and station agency he . . ." DNZB, Alwyn Owen. More to come, Eddaido (talk) 04:43, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I miscalculated - it wasn't eight years - it was eighteen years. From "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" - On matriculating from Waimate High School [which would have been circa 1902], David joined a stock and station agency in Waimate, where he worked until, in 1919, he took up a small sheep station [at Sutton] near Middlemarch. He married the same year." If he only worked as a clerk for Dalgety briefly, but worked at the firm for eighteen years, then presumably the rest of the time he had a non-office job with them. You're right that it might not have been as a station agent, but it would be the most likely job. Grutness...wha? 05:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps rather than simply picking one of the articles I named and arguing from that, it'd be better if you looked at several of them... what is your argument againt, say James Armour Johnstone, Richard Jones (New South Wales politician, born 1843), Patrick Grace (politician), Newton King, Henry Le Cren, or William Duffus Hunt? Picking just one article as representative of all the articles in the category is a pretty weak way of forming an argument. Grutness...wha? 05:25, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

No, I need to make a number of points with this case. I should explain my father was a couple of months younger than Gunn and I'm very much a full generation older than you so this is how we seem to fall out. Your history is my experience. For example in my day there was an examination at the end of the sixth form year called U. E. for University Entrance. Its previous name was Matriculation. Matriculation is admission to a university. Gunn would have been at least 17 and maybe more. I do agree though that it was unusual in those days for him to stay at school and suggests (as is true) his father was more than a humble Scottish shepherd. (You may know that for centuries ordinary Scots have been very keen on education, long before the English) Again its true that his father is on record as having Been a shepherd but he became a farm manager and perhaps could afford that luxury. My copy of Southern People should have arrived by now, maybe tomorrow morning. Papers Past has been informative but has gone down for some reason but it was hard work in there to find things that I've since found Julia Bradshaw has covered. One of the concerns is that there is a John David Gunn of a similar age and locality. Talk to you later, Eddaido (talk) 07:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, check for yourself who wrote the articles (or the most substantial portion of them, or just fundamental corrections) you refer to above. Eddaido (talk) 07:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, she was Julia and not a Jane Bradshaw. I'll provide the complete quote from her book published 2007: "after leaving school he had worked briefly as a clerk for a stock and station agency before deciding a desk job didn't suit him. He returned to the sheep farm owned by his aunts Mary and Jessie, near Waimate, where he stayed until he was called up near the end of World War One. He only made it as far as Trentham Barracks before peace was declared, upon which he was discharged and returned to Waimate and married Ethel Willets, a red-haired confectioner who enjoyed tennis and dancing". The sources are given in appendix one. Eddaido (talk) 09:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. I wonder how you know how old I am, or are you simply making an assumption? In my day there was also a sixth form examination called UE, so perhaps you are not totally accurate in this assumption. And yes, I know about the Scottish affinity with higher education (it would impossible to be interested in history in Dunedin without being so, and my own grandfather was born in Edinburgh in the late 1? 9th century. Not that that is relevant in any way to what you are arguing.

I'm trying to give a good reason why my attitudes differ from those of the person "Born in Barnet, England in 1963, he moved to New Zealand in 1975, and . . "

Say that Gunn was 18 when he left school. That would still mean 14 years at Dalgetys, according to my source. As for the authorship, the article in "Southern people : a dictionary of Otago Southland biography" was written by Murray Gunn - Davy's son. I would take his knowledge of Davy life over that of Julia Bradshaw.

You should see Julia's book.

But he was not at Dalgety's over that period and Murray Gunn is a major contributor to Julia's book published near ten years after the item attributed to him. You might notice in the early item Murray does not say how long Davey was with Dalgety's, it is Julia+Murray adds that. Davey's military record is in too bad a condition to be photocopied - that would have told us more. There was around 1916 to 1918 an L Gunn auctioneer for Dalgety's in Oamaru and in addition a C L Gunn who seems to have been a manager for Dalgety's at Waimate who was forever being sick or going away and coming back. This may have contributed to the editor's mistake

first source
Waimate Daily Advertiser
17 May 1917 Page 3
MILITARY APPEAL BOARD
David John Gunn, farmer, Waimate, said he had one brother under age, and he managed his aunt's farm of 420 acres freehold, and 70 acres leasehold. Had lived with his aunts, who were both over 60 years of age, since he was 12 years old. His father, with the help of his (appellant's) brother ran a sheep farm of 27,000 acres in Central Otago—Adjourned for further information.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
20 June 1917 Page 4
Military Appeal Cases
David John Gunn, Hook, said he could not get anyone to manage his farm, and wanted a little time. He was allowed till the exhaustion of the First Division.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
10 April 1918 Page 4
Military Appeal Board
J. D. Gunn, Hook, asked for a sine die adjournment, or a report by, His Efficiency Board.—The latter was granted.

Waimate Daily Advertiser
10 June 1918 Page 3
Military Appeal Board
Waimate Cases
The appeal of D. J. Gunn, Waimate, was dismissed as he did not appear when called

It is my understanding that simply being a young single "stock agent" would not have stopped him being shipped away in 1916 - ideal cannon-fodder. Eddaido (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

In any case, this is all of very little relevance to either my previous comments (which asked you to look at the other articles in the category) or to the matter in hand overall (whether or not the categories belong in Wikipedia, and what the difference is between stock and station agents and stock and station agencies). You argument is working from entirely the wrong direction. Even if you managed to show that Davy Gunn does not belong in this category, it still leaves 17 other articles in this category and 30 in the Australian category. Arguing from one article seems an utterly ridiculous way to show that the categories should not be in Wikipedia. It also has no relevance whatsoever to what the difference between agents and agencies is. Personally, all this seems to be doing is arguing about one individual article. It seems to me that this qhole discussion is nothing but a complete waste of both your time and mine. Grutness...wha? 14:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

My concern is:

to arrive at a clear defining of stock agent / agency for Wikipedia's purposes towards which it would be good if you could have access to Simon Ville's book (which is excruciatingly dry)

to remedy the cases of the selection of minor and or early occupations in New Zealand biographies. These foibles (they often happen because a particular minor occupation is how the originator of the biography first found them) bring about unbalanced portraits

You don't seem to have noticed who created the category concerned and populated it with the right kind of people.

Eddaido (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

And you do not seem to realise who winnowed out a lot of the wrong type of people from it. Until recently it had far more articles tan it currently has, many of whom had only a passing connection to the trade, plus a number of publicly listed companies which had no right to be in there. To be honest, I'm fed up to the back gills with arguing about the whole thing. Populate it as you see fit. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

OK but we need to work on this difference between us, can you get hold of The Rural Entrepreneurs? Eddaido (talk) 01:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Why do we need to work on this difference between us? I accept you know more about it than I do, just take out the ones you don't think should be there. Grutness...wha? 01:21, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Dalgety plc

Did you know I provided (recently) 78.5 percent of the text of the above article earning the compliments of Dormskirk who now gets attribution for only 10 percent. Sometime I plan to cover the New Zealand operation in a separate article - proper coverage would have made that article kind of out of shape. As well as other stock and station agents in NZ I have tried to create initial coverage for NZ's meat industry and also Dunedin businesses. You may not be aware of this but until the 1950s "Auckland spent Dunedin's money" In other words, Dunedin was the major source of capital within New Zealand and accordingly administered most of NZ's big businesses and I am trying to get recognition of that. But I believe you are personally associated with old Dunedin so you might know these things. ;-)) Eddaido (talk) 12:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Everyone in Dunedin knows that - it is a major reason for the city's continued animosity towards Auckland. By the way, given the nature of Wikipedia I didn't realise that anyone actually claimed percentages of attribution on articles. Grutness...wha? 00:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Something new every day, so they say — and someone may re-write the very same article later today and my contribution will become insignificant.

(I know you know all this, I want you to know I know it too) By and large the movers and shakers (realists?) moved north, in some cases only to Wellington then, since the 1980s, on to Auckland to join those who'd leapt up there earlier. I know quite a number of former Dunedin residents but the idea we're mentioning was given to me by a fellow student at University (Vic) in the 1950s. My motivation to write in WP is because I see so many misunderstandings that happen, I guess, because so many editors are a great deal younger than you or me. So I aim for the topics where I already have some knowledge and experience and have been / will be (possibly forever) overlooked. Ultimately its all about people and their efforts isn't it and while some will wonder why, for example, anybody could possibly be interested in the Union Steam Ship Co their activities, like those of the railways, were part of the lives of a large number of people and They are the ones (we are still around) I'm writing for - and their descendants. Eddaido (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

New Zealand

Grutness Hello! I wanted to ask you why there are no articles in the English Wiki about best novels and books of famouse New Zealand science fiction & fantasy writers: Cherry Wilder, Margaret Mahy, Lyn McConchie, Lucy Sussex, Katherine Mansfield, Fleur Adcock, Margaret Mahy, Lyn McConchie? Maybe you could fill these gaps, to whom else would you do it? --Yasnodark (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

No idea - there definitely should be. I'd include articles on the writings of Julius Vogel, Craig Harrison, Ged Maybury, Nalini Singh, Phillip Mann and possibly Tim Jones and Philippa Ballantine. Writing articles about books isn't really my forte though. Grutness...wha? 23:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Grutness Hello! You started it, so I ask you to rename other subcategories of Category:Alternate history by nationality, because now there is a chaos and unsystematic approach to the approaches. --Yasnodark (talk) 14:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

It all seems to be in order except that someone seems to have incorrectly moved the American category - the rest are all fine. I'm not sure what you mean by "an approach to the approaches", and I certainly can't see anything chaotic or unsystematic in there - it all follows standard Wikipedia polic of using local spellings (compare Category:Organizations by country, Category:Pediatricians by nationality or Category:Transport by country). Grutness...wha? 00:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Done. Grutness...wha? 00:24, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Grutness Now 80 % of categories carry the old name "Alternate" and 20 % a new name "Alternative". This is not normal. If you already rename from "Alternate" to "Alternative", then all categories are absolutely absent.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:56, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Cyde I ask you to unify the names of all categories of this series.--Yasnodark (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

@Yasnodark: you don't seem to understand how category naming works on Wikipedia. It is perfectly normal and perfectly appropriate. As with the other categories I listed (did you look at them?) local usage applies. The situation is perfectly analogous to the organiz/sation categories. So too are others like Category:Transport by country, Category:Judiciaries by country, and Category:Television news anchors by nationality. I have no idea what you mean by categories being absolutely absent - all are named appropriately and all are in place, as per Wikipedia's manual of style. Grutness...wha? 03:05, 2 December 2017 (UTC).

Grutness I think there should be a single standard for naming categories, but if you think differently - let it be as it is. But I call it unsystematic chaos.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl & Nihonjoe I would like to know your opinion: there must be one standard (All categories or "Alternate", or "Alternative"), or one must take into account regional features and have different names in one system of categories.--Yasnodark (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

They're unlikely to see this unless you ping them. @BrownHairedGirl:, @Nihonjoe: could you please explain this to Yasnodark? S/he doesn't seem to believe it when I explain it. Grutness...wha? 23:36, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

"Alternate history" is the correct term in American English. "Alternative" implies a choice, whereas "alternate" means "different" (again, in American English). In Commonwealth English, "alternative" is the preferred word. Therefore, the categories are appropriately named as they are since all of the category titles using "alternative" are for location that use Commonwealth English. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Ka pai e hoa

Thanks your Grutness for tweaking Public transport in Dunedin -Peter :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.100.143.46 (talk) 08:16, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

No probs :) Grutness...wha? 08:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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...to you and yours, from the Great White North! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

thank you! And to you and yours, from the sunny south Pacific! Grutness...wha? 00:00, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Happy Holidays

From Stave one of Dickens A Christmas Carol Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail. Mind! I don’t mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country’s done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail. So you see even Charles was looking for a reliable source :-) Thank you for your contributions to the 'pedia. ~ MarnetteD|Talk 00:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas Grutness!!


Hi Grutness, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year,
Thanks for all your help and contributions on the 'pedia! ,
   –Davey2010 ^{Merry Xmas / Happy New Year} 18:26, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

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