User talk:Joy/Archive/2005

An apology

...for my careless edits on Bleiburg massacre and Operation Keelhaul. I was in a hurry and forgot to rephrase and put back in some of the things I cut out while adding new information. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 00:24, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Russian (spelling) page

Please see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Russian_.28usage.29_page Jayjg | (Talk) 21:00, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Felix Weingartner

Thanks for your help! That was an elegant solution (says this ex-mathematician :) ). Schissel : bowl listen 21:38, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Joseph

>merged the two entries referring to the same person, at least)<

Thank You GT

---

Joy, you might want to clean up this language:

?* Joseph, son of Jacob, is a character in the Book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible. He was a Hebrew who wore a coat of many colours and interpreted dreams, as well as a commodities trader.?

colours and interpreted dreams, as well as

maybe

colours, interpreted dreams, as well as

---o0---

also if you prefer Joseph could be called a grain trader, with a link to commodities, or grain speculator, with a link to Speculator.

In any case it is understated. Joseph was probably the greatest & shrewdest person to ever trade commodities. He had people coming in asking to become his slave, because they knew there families would be fed if they surrendered to him. GT

---

Aloha, Look we trade Commodities. Joseph was the greatest commodity trader of all time. I could not care less if he wore a Technicolor cloak. We will be making a reference to him in futures history. There needs to be some distinction as to who he is and what he did that was significant. If it was not for Joseph?s commodity trading there would probably be no land surveying, or property tax. So how are we going to know what Joseph it is if you continue to hide him in a hole in the desert.

--o0o---

He appeared before Pharaoh and told him in the name of God that the dreams forecasted seven years of plentiful crops followed by seven years of famine. He advised Pharaoh to make a wise man commissioner over the land with overseers to gather and store food from the seven years of abundance to save for the years of scarcity.

Joseph traveled throughout Egypt, gathering and storing enormous amounts of grain from each city.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Joseph.html

---o0o---

According to Joseph's interpretation, there were to be seven years of plenty in Egypt, followed by seven years of famine. Joseph was able to advise the Pharaoh on how to prepare for the famine and as a result gained the favour of the Pharaoh who promoted him to Prime Minister.

During the famine Joseph had to make key decisions. His acquisition of grain provisions enabled Egypt to withstand and survive the famine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/joseph.shtml

---o0o---

?Just as Joseph had predicted seven years of abundant harvest were followed by seven years without any rain, and there was great famine throughout all of the land of Egypt and in all of the countries nearby. The land where Israel and Joseph's eleven brothers lived also had no rain and great famine until there was nothing left to eat.

Joseph sold grain to the people of Egypt until they had no more money to buy grain. Then the people sold through Joseph to Pharoah all of their lands so that they could have grain to eat. Then the people sold themselves and their children as slaves to Pharoah so that they could eat. Finally Pharoah owned all of the money, land and people in Egypt except for the money and lands of the Egyptian priests who always received free food from Pharoah according to their previous agreement. ?

http://www.virtualchurch.org/joseph.htm

---o0o---

Joseph was ruler and governor of all the land.

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/Jsphsbirthright.html

---o0o---

He predicted 7 years of good harvest followed by 7 years of famine. Joseph recommended that Egypt make great stores of food to prepare for the famine.

http://www.ebibleteacher.com/batlasweb/sld016.htm

---o0o---

What part of these is not predicting and betting on the future value of commodities?

? Joseph, son of Jacob, biblical commodities Trader who cornered the grain market. Under Joseph?s direction his Pharaoh gained control of all the money, land and people in Egypt except for the priests. GT

Croatian names

I knew I was probably doing something wrong there. I think I didn't take into account that it would be easy to change in the future. I'm slightly tentative in removing them in case the couple I didn't add myself get reverted, however, I will revert them very soon - probably as soon as I find my next instance, which I'm bound to do sometime this morning.

Thanks for the note - I didn't realize there was some kind of convention in terms of leaving them alone. Guess I shoulda checked before running over to do them.. Sorry. Bobo192 04:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cool. I was wrestling with myself over the necessity of putting the notice there when it was obvious by the bold script that it was the case.

I'll get to removing them soon - I promise. All the best. Bobo192 18:23, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Redirects

I don't recall any consensus on that unilateral change. Can you direct me to it, please? Jayjg | (Talk) 18:47, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

re: wrongtitle

I strongly disagree with your views that only for Croatian names you can't use the wrongtitle template. This is a ridiculous exception and I will not tolerate it. And given the fact that you *are* Croatian this can be viewed as POV from your side. It seems that you don't want to "litter" the Croatian bio articles you so dearly love with an "annoying" message at the top that only you dislike. It will be fairly simple to remove this template once en: goes utf-8. Please don't remove them because I will continue to add them and if you continue to remove them I will take it to RfC, RfA, Jimbo, whatever, whoever is needed for you to comprehend that Croatian people are not a exception to the rule and that this Wiki is for English speaking people, not Croatian speaking people. —Cantus…☎ 19:31, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

People *do* care, that's why they come here, to learn. The fact that the media doesn't use diacritics is irrelevant. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Using diacritics in names is standard among serious encyclopedias. See [1] [2] [3]. Keep in mind we're talking about the actual title of the article, not the URL. That the URL happens to be the title of the article is a coincidence, which may possibly be addressed in future versions of Wikipedia, or not. The URL is irrelevant, but the title that does appear in huge letters at the top of the article *does* matter a lot, and having it written incorrectly lowers the quality of the encyclopedia, so a mention of that limitation is appropriate. —Cantus…☎ 22:32, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I don't like the appearance of wrongtitle templates myself. But the thing is, they are supposed to be there, simply because the title is incorrect. Refusing to insert them, or arguing against their insertion is one thing, but undoing other people's useful work is another. (OK, potentially useful, but still.) GregorB 20:14, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Now, in C++ programmer speak that I'm sure you'll find more illustrative... :) Is it better to write (int)blah or reinterpret_cast<int>(blah)? reinterpret_cast is, you might say, "excessive verbiage"; it is somewhat bothersome to write, and one cannot say it's really "useful", as your program will work just the same. But it is a sound practice, and although I may or may not choose to write code this way, I certainly wouldn't "correct" it in someone else's code. GregorB 10:58, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

<caron>

Hi Joy - you wrote: Why are you (or your browser) replacing valid diacriticized characters with x<caron>? Please don't do that, it breaks them.

I'm not doing it - my browser is doing it automatically, and there's nothing I can do about it (I wish there was!). The reason is that characters with carons on top are unsafe characters which stuff up with several different browsers. They shouldn't really be used for that reason (you'll probably find lots of people whose edits do the same - it's simply that I've been doing a lot of work on Eastern European geography lately so mine are more noticeable). The same problem came up recently with the Icelandic letters thorn and eth being replaced in exactly the same way. Whatever the standard HTML write-up is (x&number;) should be used instead. Grutness|^hello? 09:27, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know that they're vague, but at least they show up. When your commit subcategorizes a geo-stub and garbles 25 diacriticized characters due to a largely minor misfeature, it does more harm than good. IE and Firefox don't try to change s<caron> and z<caron> (the letters in question, which are both Latin1 and Latin2) every time they see them, please don't have your browser do it.

I use IE with Latin1, so you're wrong there. As for "please don't have your browser do it", as I said, it does it automatically when it hits an unsafe character and cannot be stopped. The problem only arises when people use unsafe characters, which should not be used. If the articles were correctly written, the problem would not have occurred, and would not occur again. Blaming me for a problem caused by an incorrectly formatted article doesn't get at the root of the problem. What would you rather I did, simply stop editing for fear of having someone else's bad typing show up after my work? Perhaps you'd prefer it if the articles remain lost among the myriad other stubs, rather than being easily found. Use html rather than unsafe characters. Grutness|^hello? 09:44, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know that in an ideal world we'd never have this problem, but we do, and I'm suggesting that you handle it more gracefully, rather than ignoring it just because it's not completely your fault. I'm currently going through those edits and fixing them — those other people's browsers caused the problem, but I'm not cleaning up after them, I'm cleaning up after your browser.

(a) Until you brought the subject up, I didn't know that anything had gone wrong with the edits in question. All I was doing was changing stub messages, and didn't notice any changes to the articles themselves.

(b) I'd love to be able to fix it myself, but because of other people's sloppy work, I'm unable to do so - if I open up any of those files, they will go back to having <caron> written on them.

(c) In the last week, I have edited some 1700 files. Which files need fixing? You've never mentioned any individual files, so even if I could fix them - which I can't, for the reasons given above - I wouldn't know which ones needed fixing. Presumably they are some of the Hungarian, Romanian, Czech, Slovak, Slovene, Croatian, Russian, Serbian, Bosnian, or Polish geo- or bio-stubs I've been looking at, but which ones?

(d) I am simply pointing out that when the files are fixed, they should be fixed properly, and not with the kludged unsafe characters.

(e) I was responding gracefully until your attack on my work. You asked me not to do something, I replied that it was my browser's fault and I wished there was something I could do about it. If my later replies have seemed ungraceful, I apologise, but your sentence When your commit subcategorizes a geo-stub and garbles 25 diacriticized characters due to a largely minor misfeature, it does more harm than good. was ungraceful to start with. What is it you claim I have committed? Grutness|^hello? 11:21, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, for example these[...] I can see how these few breakages may seem insignificant compared to the other two thousand, but it's not like you couldn't have used a bot that has been proven to work and avoid this kind of collateral damage... that would be a graceful way to handle this IE bug, that's what I meant (being graceful in replies is nice, but it can't replace doing the right thing).

The breakages don't seem insignificant to me - I'm sorry they happened. What I'm saying is that since I don't know which pages they were on, I'd need to check a LOT of files to find where they were, and even then I wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Since I've no idea how to make bots, all I can do is edit by hand. And if my browser breaks these pages, it would probably have done the same with a bot. Personally, I would have thought that personally going back and fixing things would be much more graceful than getting an automated routine to do it for you.

BTW, on another topic entirely, may I make a suggestion (hope you don't mind...) - it'd be easier to reply to you if you worked your signature so that clicking on "Joy" took you to your user page, and clicking on "Shallot" took you to your talk page. Just a thought :) Grutness|^hello? 22:19, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think there should be a page somewhere where every Wikipedian can request help from the developers in making a bot...

There is...Wikipedia:Bot requests. I've asked for bots there a couple of times in the past, and never had a response from anyone, though. Grutness|^hello? 10:25, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Croat, Slovenian names

Hi Joy, could you help me out with the correct 'č', 'ć', etc for Croatia and Slovenia at Football World Cup 2002 (squads) --Dryazan 16:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Korbava, Kravaba, Krbava, so many names for one place!

Ugh, I knew these spelling variants were going to trip me up somewhere. did the spelling depend on who ran the government at the time, or is it a language thing? It seems that Kravaba is the same variant that was chosen for the previous maps too, and 2 older maps I read had it that way too... but looking at modern refernces I see that nobody spells it that way any more!

Anyway, the Photoshop file is http://homepage.mac.com/imeowbot/wp/hungary.zip, all the text layers are intact, have fun! iMeowbot~Mw 23:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pal(a)eolithic

Hello Joy. I see you have moved Upper and Lower and Middle Palaeolithic. Should such moves not be based on consensus? I spelt them that way when creating them to remain in keeping with the ae construction used in Archaeology and also Epipalaeolithic. I admit I never did get around to requesting that Paleolithic be moved for consistency though. Please would you consider moving them back or starting a request for feedback on the general idea? Please note that Archaeology topics also have their own stub template: {{archaeology-stub}}. Regards adamsan 00:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I cannot perform moves for these articles, so the easiest option to finish the job would be if you could consider moving Epipalaeolithic to Epipaleolithic. This would put the full set in US English which isn't my choice but is at least consistent. Best wishes adamsan 21:48, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

tagging articles

Please put templates like {{expansion}} that only are useful to editors, on talk pages (the only exception I can think of would be the different stub templates). This is to Avoid self references as much as possible and make our content more useful to third party users. Thank you. :) --mav 08:48, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

tagging articles

Please put semi-permanent templates like {{expansion}} that only are useful to editors, on talk pages (the only major exception I can think of would be the different stub templates). This is to Avoid self references as much as possible and make our content more useful to third party users. Thank you. :) --mav 09:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please ignore mav's request. He/she has been making this request to many users but it is counter to policy as stated on the very page that she refers people to, which is as follows:

However, there are exceptions to this. In particular, an article which is still in its initial development or under dispute often will include tags such as "stub", "npov", and "expansion" to help editors further develop the article, and the text in these templates include self-references. Try, however, to limit such self-references, even in templates.

Philip 10:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stub sorting guidelines

I sincerely believe that we really need to lay down the law in stub sorting, and really provide a guideline. I believe that we should all attempt to reach a general consensus by April 2, 2005 in a set of rules that we can follow. Once we have built a set of guidelines, we can formally create a policy out of those guidelines. We need to define what a specialized topic stub is, how many articles it should cover, when is it appropriate to create it, what defines its need for its creation, what defines its need for deletion, what criteria it should follow, what are the general steps should one take when sorting a stub, whether or not to start using subst: for all templates, whether or not use subst: for all templates created by the meta-templates, and any other matters that may come up in consideration. I thank jag123 for initially creating the subpage for the project at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Guidelines. Even though they have been discussed, I feel that we really need to confirm everything. For that, we should discuss each issue with its own sections, and raise a list of issues that we need to nail down before really continuing on. The English Wikipedia is nearly at 500k articles. Either the MediaWiki software needs to handle stubs such that they can be found with a simple union of categories, or the sorting is done manually by Wikipedians. Personally, I think the latter is less taxing on the server load, especially when we use subst:, which I think would help the Wikipedia out, performance wise. Please make your comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Guidelines. I apologize for making this somewhat of a spam notice, but since the project has more members, the project can finally decide on these important issues at hand. -- AllyUnion (talk) 23:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ako ti je email...

... joy na debijanu, onda imas mail. Ako nije, pogresio sam adresu :) --Millosh 10:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

User:Jankaspar; aka User:81.64.45.175

Hi, I reverted a bunch of country pages where User:Jankaspar had added links to http://www.centreurope-us.org/"whatever", and I've noticed he's back as 81.64.45.175. He's doing it again. Davenbelle 11:33, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I reverted his anon 'contribs' and asked him to stop, and he did! I'll drop you a note if I see it again. Davenbelle 12:59, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Zara

Sorry. --Waninoco 11:20, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Double admin

Congratulations! You're a double admin. While doing some rather monotonous cross-checking of lists, I discovered that you have admin rights on both accounts (Joy and Shallot). To the best of my knowledge, you are the only one to have this distinction.  :-) Obviously, the trust was placed in you and not your user name, and it doesn't really matter, but it might be a good idea to request a beaurocrat to de-sysop Shallot. SWAdair | Talk 11:51, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

X --> X people

Many ethnic groups also are the names of languages (English people/English language), for example; doing what I'm doing helps unify all the ethnic group articles (see Category:Ethnic groups of Europe). It's the same principle with language articles: the standard is naming them "Fooish language" instead of "Fooish," even when "Fooish" is not itself ambiguous. Regards --Neutrality^talk 03:37, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

P.S.: I'm a bit offended that you've started to revert without telling me. Neutrality^talk 03:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

---

Well, you moved Albanian people, Magyar people, and Greek people before posting on my talk. And "I'm reverting this" is not a particularly friendly way of opening dialogue. But that's besides the point. I think, to use your example of Italians, that Italian people is a better title because it implies the Italian ethnic group (more so than "nationals or residents of Italy, which would be dealt with in demographics of Italy. "Italians," even though it is not a language, still is somewhat ambiguous. Italian people is the better name. --Neutrality^talk 03:52, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

---

Perhaps we should bring it up at Wikipedia:Requested moves and get some outside input. --Neutrality^talk 03:58, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Caribbean ethnic groups

Hi. I was wondering why you were moving Caribbean ethnic groups to Category:Ethnic groups of Central America. While I have heard the Caribbean claimed as part of North America often enough, and (parts of it) as South America on occassion (e.g., Trinidad) I can't say I have really seen it classed with Central America. It strikes me as an odd pairing. Guettarda 23:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. My inclination would either be to separate "Ethnic groups of the Caribbean", or merge them both (Caribbean & Central America) into North America (since technically Central America is a peninsula of North America). Of course, most Americans aren't even aware that Mexico is part of North America, not of Central America. Guettarda 23:56, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Town or city

Hi, the Category:Cities in Hungary, which you reverted to Győr, is listed for deletion at the moment, because there is only one city in Hungary, and it's Budapest. This is because a "city" in English means a settlement with at least approx. 500,000 inhabitants, and in Hungary even the biggest town, Debrecen, doesn't have so many inhabitants, only about 200,000 people.

--Adam78 12:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

{{verylarge}}

I've emended {{verylarge}} so it applies more generaly; please see its entry on WP:TFD and vote again. Thanks! —msh210 14:46, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Leonid Tsypkin

I thank you for your contributions in the article on Leonid Tsypkin. Good save! - Mike Rosoft 17:10, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wertq1's images

Greetings, Joy. You asked:

Why exactly did you mark some of those Jasenovac images as fair use [4] [5] [6] and one unused one for deletion [7]? I don't see any difference between their origin (let alone license information) so they should either all be kept or all removed. --Joy [shallot] 21:51, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The difference is that the fourth image isn't used in an article. Those images can only be used according to a fair use claim, and that claim would depend on what page it's used in. If a "fair use" image isn't actually used in an article, then it isn't a fair use. (If it were used, I wouldn't want to delete it.) Do you think it should be used? – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 01:41, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Yes you're right. I'll list them at Wikipedia:Image sleuthing, and we'll see what we find out. – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 02:27, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Need a block

Joy, when I checked Recent Changes, you were the first admin I saw on the list, so you are probably still online. I need a user blocked. I can block anons, but a software bug on my end is preventing me from submitting the block form when anything but numbers are entered. User:John fader is impersonating User:John Fader because of the latest entry on Vandalism in progress. Would you block the impersonator for me? Thank you. SWAdair | Talk 23:52, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • Ah, nevermind. RickK was on the job. The impersonator has been blocked indefinitely. Thank you, anyway. SWAdair | Talk 23:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Heh... looks like we were both typing at the same time. I just got your message. Thank you. SWAdair | Talk 23:58, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

{{titlelacksdiacritics}}

Joy, I think that your "titlelacks diacritics" is a good idea. I do think there could be one improvement. In my humble opinion, the template should be set up to float on the top of the article. It looks really cluttered when you add it to an article that already has a picture near the top. One example of an article where the "titlelacksdiacritics" template would create a problem is Rüştü Reçber. I previewed the article with the new template and it looked horrible, at least on my computer.

Seconded. I could easily run these through with the list of Croatian players I previously wrongtitled? I owe it to you for being annoying previously having done it the wrong way. Bobo192 05:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your note, Joy. I'll run through a list of the footballers and utilize the template. Unfortunately, it may involve very little discretion whatsoever on my part. Merely because it would make it more difficult for others to search through the ones I've changed and disregard the ones I haven't. That's a job I don't think anyone would like to have, weeding through the ones I may or may not have changed. Bobo192 20:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mount Lovcen

Hi! Could you elaborate just a little bit over the change you made to History of Montenegro, namely that of Mount Lovcen to Mount Lovćen? There's no other occurrence of this spelling on WP (aside from what was copied back to List of country name etymologies), nor in any of the first 100 Google hits.

Now, I know absolutely nothing of Montenegro (except for the fact that it is in Europe, and not in Africa as I had imagined...), but I came across Mount Lovcen as part of the Wiki Syntax cleanup effort to hunt down broken redirects. I've therefore written a (microscopic) stub, and I would like for it and the articles to agree on spelling.

--Fbriere 07:25, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected: most articles on WP do use the alternate spelling. Why I can't find it outside WP, though, remains a mystery. --Fbriere 07:33, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Macedon page

The Talk page of Macedon shows that you are interested in the article. Lately I've been keeping a watch on the article because Greek nationalists (and sometimes Macedonian Slavs) keep vandalizing it on a regular basis. Just thought you might want to check on it every now & then as well. Decius 05:57, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, just for fun, see Origin of Albanians and Talk:Origin of Albanians where User:Albanau stuns us with his brilliance and honesty, and makes a great case for the Illyrian-Albanian idea, and I'm sure he will win over the reading public with his behaviour. Decius 06:58, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Joy in Heaven

Oh, the joy in heaven when one sinner repenteth...!
(Template:Titlelacksdiacritics)
The nitpickers of the world salute thee... :) -- Picapica 01:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History mergers

Hey there. I was just looking through Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen and noticed The Episcopal Church → Episcopal Church. I've actually been able to do the merge: while Episcopal Church could not be deleted, the other could - I therefore:

1. Deleted The Episcopal Church
2. Moved Episcopal Church → The Episcopal Church
3. Undeleted the history
4. Moved back to The Episcopal Church

A bit of a long way around, but it works if you really need to do it. violet/riga (t) 18:42, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Josip Juraj Strossmayer

On April 16th you asked me "what's the other censorship about?" in an edit for the Strossmayer article. Apparently on the 15th I editted several parts of the article and this question was in response to that. The weird thing is, I didn't edit anything except that I added the link to the Croatian article about him. I'm not sure what happened to make all the other changes, but I didn't do it. :\ thewanderer 21:52, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Croats

Josipe, I'm the one who edited the article you reverted...Is it wise to reconnect the Croats and their perception of the Chetniks with all of that? It turns Croats (at best) into cowards. --VKokielov 23:34, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

J, I changed the sentence again - differently. It's your domain, so if you don't agree this time, I'm not going to fight. See what you think. --VKokielov 22:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The old wording was: "On the other side [i.e hand], Croats and Bosnians still see Chetniks as some kind of a fascist movement, not dissimilar to the fascist groups of their own, such as the Ustaše and SS Handžar Division ". The problem is that we can't pass judgment on what the Croats think about the Ustashe. They know that the rest of the world thinks the Ustashe were Nazis, but, goodness me if I ever wrote that Israel sees apartheid in South Africa no differently from its own army's actions. What's certain is that Croats and Bosnjaks don't want a holier-than-thou from any Serbs about the Chetniks. --VKokielov 22:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lake Volta

Interesting - I've found several sources which claim Lake Nasser is the largest artificial lake in the world, and yet it seems to be around 6,000km² - decidedly less than Lake Volta. I suspect that I was right the first time and Lake Volta is indeed the largest artificial lake in the world. Warofdreams 10:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I need your help

Joy, I need your help regarding User:Hipi_Zhdripi. Please check out his contributions. They are not vandalism per se, but certainly give me headache. Please check out his talk page and his contribs, and tell me what you think. Thanks in advance, --Dejan Cabrilo 22:11, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I am not sure if he constitutes a vandal, and I am not exactly sure what to do about his edits. He sure made a mess so far, and it's a huge job to clean up after him. (I am sorry to sound so POV, but once you get a good look at his edits, I think you will see what I am talking about) --Dejan Cabrilo 07:53, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Capitals

Joy, hteo bih da se konsultujem sa tobom u vezi jednog clanka. Rec je o clanku Capitals_of_Hungary. Ne vidim osnovu po kojoj su Sisak i Sremska Mitrovica uvrsteni ovde kao Madjarsake prestonice. Ta dva grada niti su se nalazila na teritoriji danasnje Madjarske, niti su se nalazila na teritoriji istorijske Madjarske, u vreme kada je ona obuhvatala te teritorije. Dakle, pominjanje ova dva grada u ovom clanku mi lici na kradju Vojvodjanske i Hrvatske istorije. Prema tome, predlazem da se to brise iz ovog clanka. Medjutim da ne bismo potpuno obrisali ovo, ta dva grada kao istorijske prestonice rimske Panonije treba pomenuti u posebnim clancima koji su predvidjeni za to. Ja sam vec napisao clanak Capitals_of_Vojvodina, gde sam pomenuo Sirmium, a napisacu i clanak Capitals_of_Serbia, gde cu ga takodje pomenuti. Tebi predlazem da napises clanak Capitals_of_Croatia (posto ja bas nemam podataka o toj temi) i da tamo pomenes Sisak, a zatim mozemo ova dva grada izbrisati iz clanka o prestonicama Madjarske. Da li se slazes sa mojim predlogom. User:PANONIAN

Moram reci da se ne slazem bas potpuno sa tvojim poslednjim izmenama u clanku o prestonicama Madjarske. Smatram da nisi morao da obrises gradove: Aquincum, Savaria i Sopianae. Shvatam, kojim si se principom koristio ovde, ali mislim da taj princip bas nije odgovarajuci. Navescu jedan primer. Kada bismo recimo pisali istoriju Srbije, postavilo bi se sledece pitanje: da li da istoriju Srbije pocnemo od Ilira, Tracana i Rimljana, ili da je pocnemo od Sarmatije i Bele Srbije u Polablju, posto su Srbi tamo ziveli pre nego sto su dosli na Balkan. Moram primetiti da se u istorijskim knjigama koje sam citao o toj temi koriste oba principa, dakle, neko pocinje istoriju Srbije od Ilira, a neko od Sarmata, a tesko je reci ko je u pravu. Istorija Srbije, Madjarske ili Hrvatske nije iskljucivo istorija ovih drzava u vreme kad su postojale sa tim imenom, nego istovremeno i istorija geografskog podrucja na kom se te drzave nalaze. Na primer, ocigledno je da za vreme turske vladavine Srbija nije postojala, ali u istorijskim knjigama o Srbiji se pise i o vremenu turske vladavine. Prema tome, pisati u istoriji Srbije samo o vremenu kada je postojala pod tim imenom, a iskljuciti istoriju tog geografskog podrucja u vremenu kada Srbija nije postojala, je jedna nepotrebna iskljucivost. Sta je poenta? Smatram da su rimski gradovi Aquincum, Savaria i Sopianae deo istorije Madjarske i da bi ih trebalo vratiti u clanak (makar pronaci neki poseban odgovarajuci podnaslov pod kojim bi se mogli staviti). Sto se tice clanka o prestonicama Vojvodine, taj clanak sam vec nedavno napisao, i to koristeci oba pomenuta principa. Dakle ukljucio sam prestonice istorijskih pokrajina koje su se nalazile na teritoriji danasnje Vojvodine, kao i istorijske prestonice Vojvodine i Srema (Temisvar i Debrc), koje se nisu nalazile na teritoriji danasnje Vojvodine. Zaista ne vidim razlog da ne koristimo oba principa, kako kod ovog clanka, tako i kod drugih clanaka o prestonicama Madjarske, Srbije, Hrvatske, itd. Inace, moja primedba na clanak o prestonicama Madjarske je bila ta sto se Siscia i Sirmium tamo nisu mogli uvrstiti ni po jednom od dva pomenuta principa, ali to nije slucaj sa ostala 3 rimska grada. Sto se tice toga da li je Vojvodina imala mnogo prestonica, samo uporedi taj clanak (u kom sam nabrojao 8 prestonica), sa sadasnjim clankom o prestonicama Madjarske (u kom ih ima 5). Pretpostavljam da je to dovoljno za poseban clanak. User:PANONIAN

Joy, vratio sam 3 prestonice Panonije u clanak o prestonicama Madjarske, a dopisao sam ih tako da izgledaju minorno u odnosu na glavni tekst (kako si rekao). Pogledaj da li se slazes sa tim kako je napisano. User:PANONIAN

Balkan NPOV page

Pisem vama trojici koji ste se prijavili jos onomad na m:South Slavic NPOV page (Hariju, Xjamu i tebi), posto sam napravio neke izmene, a potaknut desavanjima vezanim za stranicu en:Kosovo. Dakle, definitivno treba to da aktiviramo. Preko toga, ja sam promenio ime u m:Balkan NPOV page zato sto mi se cini da tako ima znatno vise smisla. Treba ukljuciti u to i Albance, ali i Grke itd. i videti sta dalje. Meni se cini da je dobro da napravimo template koji kaze da je ta i ta stranica pod obradom Balkan NPOV page i da tamo treba razgovarati i sl. --Millosh 19:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Tesanj population

Oops, that would seem to be a mistake on my part. I received that figure from [8], although as it happens I can't read Croatian. However I felt I could understand enough of it (Populacija, Bošnjaci, Srbi seem somewhat self-evident) that I could make sense of the figures. It seemed to me "stanovnika" meant something similar to "people" or "population". I didn't realize it was a municipality as well as a town. Looking at it again, it seems the town's population is 5.668 and the municipality's is 52.249. Sarge Baldy 14:58, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Banja Luka

Joy, if you have time could you visit Banja Luka page (see discussion page also). I've been dealing with user Oldadamm who also passes himself as 81.93.75.129 . It has been difficult to reason with this person and his edits and occassional vandalism on several other pages have been going on for months. Thanks. --Dado 04:45, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

1991 BiH census Muslim vs. Bosniak

83.93.2.84 keeps changing your 1991 census information in various articles, replacing the word 'Muslim' with 'Bosniak'. While most Muslims in BiH now identify themselves as Bosniaks, I don't think it's very accurate to change the census information just because of that. I was going to edit it, but because of the scope of the issue I thought I'd check with you first. You probably have more experience dealing with these sticky situations. Thanks. --Thewanderer 20:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Template:Titlelacksdiacritics

Why the specificity to diacritics? Considering TFD. -SV|t 22:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

From Template talk:Wrongtitle

Considering that there is very little distinction between proper use and oversuse of this template, there should be some enforced rules regarding what does and does not get used. I think that this is all improper, and only highlights a technical issue, which there isnt even an agreement to classify it as a difficulty The "Foo should be foo" is a good example of this problem. The fact that its use is primarily limited to Roman alphabet-based systems is an ethnocentric concept of policy - why is a Swedish name called "wrongly titled" when a Chinese name is not? Its really very inconsistent, and only serves the purpose of advancing various diacritic systems. Further its not "wrong" - its policy to name things in English - not in any other language. The fact that there is limited capability for the latter should be a positive bellweather for the future, not a basis for complaining about the problems. -SV|t 21:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Obavesti me...

... o glupostima koje se objavljuju ovde glede veze Srba i ameba. Najbolje je na mojoj strani za razgovor na srpskoj Vikipediji. Sad sam izmenio Zahumlje. Pogledacu slicne stvari... --Millosh 16:50, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Da li je i ima li izvora o tome da je Stefan Vojislav srpsko-hrvatskog porekla ili ne? (Ovo je o Duklji.) --Millosh 20:23, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Znas, ne razumem se ja puno u istoriju ranog Srednjeg veka. I u tom smislu ne mogu nista da komentarisem od onoga sto si ti napisao. Jedino, svakako, da je sasvim u enciklopedijskom duhu i da u tom smislu nemam zamerki. E, sad. Stvarno mislim da bismo te stvari morali globalno da resimo. Otud i ono moje stvaranje South Slavic NPOV-a i preimenovanje u Balkan NPOV. Lakse cemo sa sranjima izlaziti na kraj ako zajedno stojimo za odredjenih formulacija. Hajd pogledaj ono sto sam poslednje uradio: m:Balkan NPOV page/principles. --Millosh 15:28, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Steward

Razgovarali smo malo (na srpskoj Vikipediji) i, bar mi koji smo razgovarali, smatramo da bi bilo dobro da se prijavis za stewarda. Ja te podrzavam, a verovatno je da cete podrzati i odredjeni broj drugih sa srpske Vikipedije. Lakse mi je da cimam tebe nego nekog na engleskom :) --Millosh 12:03, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

Apparently. I expected you to be the one to edit what I wrote. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Croatian_language&action=history

Thank you for editing the Yugoslav article. Remember, I'm looking from the side, so you have everything over me. --VKokielov 17:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Delete "secular equation"

Would you please delete the "secular equation"? Both "secular equation" and secular equation are established by me, but the one with quotations are rarely, even never, be used. Please note that they both redirect to Characteristic polynomial. The request is to delete "secular equation", not Characteristic polynomial. Thank you

Jacob grace 05:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much. :D ^^ Jacob grace 16:56, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

What do you think?

Here's a citation about kajkavian from M. Stevanovic's book:

"oblik vokativa je jednak nominativu; čuvaju se stari oblici množine imenčkih oblika, uglavnom kao i u čakavskom. Kajkavsku deklinaciju karakterišu još i krači oblici množine...: bregi, lugi, listi, duhi. ...u instrumentalu...: menom, tebom, sebom; oblik genitiva...kaj...je česa; pokazne zamenice...u sažetom oblicima:ki, ka, ke; nastance [prideva] preneli su se i na tvrde: trdega, kukuruznega, crnelem); brojevi...sačuvali promenljivost: pred sedmimi letmi; nastavak...imperative množine -ete: držete, nesete, hodete: futur nesvr glagola se pravi od prezenta glagola biti i radnog prideva glagola koji se menja: budu ljudi šli, bum kopal; a od svršenih glagola za futur se uzima oblik prezenta: ja dostignem vas; kopaj i najdeš; ako ja izdravim tebe ne ostavim)"

What do you think? Worth anything? (I ask before I poop any more on your article). --VKokielov 04:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Clergy

Please restore these pages. I'll let you know when I'm finished with them.

• Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Clergy
• Template:VfD-clergy
• MediaWiki:VfD-clergy

-- Netoholic @ 17:26, 2005 May 27 (UTC)

Nevermind, someone found where this ended up at (Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Croat Catholic Ustashi clergy), so I'm all set. -- Netoholic @ 19:20, 2005 May 27 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

I think this looks better. - 69.212.70.138 21:33, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Counties of Croatia

you are ignorant and you are lying. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:27, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

nevertheless I stop at letter O for now. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:33, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

it was not meant offensiv, just a matter of fact. you are ignorant about overwhelming usage of uppercase and you are lying if you state that I provided not any real reason for move to uppercase. Maybe you are good Debian developper, but you should not start lying. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

but then, nobody except you ever complained about that being lowercase.

and nobody but you reverted them to lowercase. There were also posts that really liked one naming scheme for all: "regularizing the links for this page is likely to result in something marvellous happening... -- The Anome 14:27, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)" Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Subnational entities

What I see from History of Austrian Empire seems to suggest:

župa/županija (hrv,slk?,...) = Gespanschaft (deu) = megye (hun)

the latter both are translated as county, so province probably would not be good for Hrvatski zupanije. Nobody claims that "X County" is the official name. It is the same thing wiht all the other entities. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:08, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I never heard Gespanschaft until some month ago when I saw it in wikipedia. de:WP says it was used starting in middle ages, befor it was Komitat from latin Comitatus. If Zupan is translated as Prefect, than it could also be Prefecture? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Whether prefecture or county - this is a seperate matter. But the term that is chosen should, with respect to upper/lowercase, not be different to the other subnational entities. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

copyright in .yu

You wrote:

The same image was created in the former (socialist) Yugoslavia and as such does not enjoy any copyright protection. I don't believe this is correct. Do you have a reference as to the (non-)existence of authorship laws in former Yugoslavia? --Joy [shallot] 22:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Reply:

Former (socialist) Yugoslavia did not poses such laws or agreements that pertained to works (created) in the country. The whole concept was considered alien and contradictory to the socialist (i.e. communist) idea. As far as providing any evidence, I duly ask you to provide evidence to the contrary. Otherwise you have just an opinion.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scorilo"

P.S. - I know see you are from Croatia, considering you might have lived in those times I suspect you are aware that conditions and economic relationships did not require such laws. What there was was in regard to foreign agreements and it mainly pertained to works by foreign authors. The fact that there were no private mass production/publishing enterprises precluded the need of such contingencies as copyrights in a Western sense or understanding of the word today. There were however regulations that enabled one or other state agency to have absolute right in publishing certain information, however this did not constitute or was not regulated as ownership since theoretically 'the people' owned everything. Also any rights to any works tended to be protected via contractual obligations and not laws per se.

---

However, Zagreb Film, Jugoton etc did exist in SFRY, and I am pretty sure they had some legal basis to protect their authors. It's possible that this was post-1974, but it's also possible that it was applied retroactively. I'd really have to see the text of the old law to state anything with certainty. --Joy [shallot] 11:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Reply:

At that time (and place) they didn't have the conception of our understanding of copyright rules. Such issues if they even came-up for dispute were resolved based on contractual obligations according to existing laws in the court of law that had the jurisdiction. But there were no (general) laws against reproducing or copying authored items or for protection of private (i.e. individual) ownership, so any infringement could only be direct based on a contract, and not universal. Essentially there were no laws directly protecting Intellectual Property in SFRY.

Also for a modern (i.e. Western), and evolving, understanding of copyrights see: http://creativecommons.org/ and http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/002852.shtml

Origin of Serbs

Prvo, aj malo sredi svoju talk stranu :) --Millosh 15:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Drugo, pogledaj clanak. Video sam kod tebe da si pominjao Alane u vezi sa Hrvatima... Sve u svemu, ne znam sta da mislim o tom clanku. Postavio ga je neki User:Olgeralbanian i stvarno mi je nejasno kako da tretiram clanak. (Panonian ga je premestio iz clanaka History of Serbs i Serbia.) Elem, sve to ima nekih dodirnih tacaka sa stvarnoscu. Uzmimo, upravo povezuje Srbe i Hrvate sa Alanima, Osetima, a time i Pasutima. Interesantno je da su meni ocigledni recidivi ovoga medju Srbima (da li ga ima i medju Hrvatima?), po cemu su Pasuti najpoznatiji danas. Hajd, baci pogled, pa se ukljuci u pricu koju smo zapodenuli Panonian i ja. --Millosh 15:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vec kako se zovu... Cuj, situacija na strani za razgovor je opustena, jer o tome pricamo trenutno samo User:PANONIAN i ja. Bilo bi dobro da izlozis ono sto si mi rekao tamo (na engleskom)... Meni se cini da se Panonski malo navukao na hipotezu (iako nije od tih ;) ) i poceo je tretirati zdravo za gotovo :) Verovanto zato sto je to stavio neko ko se deklarisao po nicku kao Albanac. Daklem, samo daj smernice glede toga tamo, pa da on nastavi sa ispravkama prema neutralnijem izgledu strane. Posto je vec krenuo na tome da radi. --Millosh 21:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry

I wasn't censoring. My delete finger is too fast. --VKokielov 01:20, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your award

I'm not the only one. Give me a day, I'll get all of wiki:sr behind it.  ;) They all appreciate what you do here. --VKokielov 01:44, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Awww, thanks :) --Joy [shallot] 11:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Medjimure

We did not reach an agreement yet on how to spell Medjimurje Party in English. I am aware that one writes Međimurje in Croatian, but the đ is not a character in the English alphabet. The article on Medjimurje uses the dj in stead of the đ. If one googles, English articles use dj. So let's write Medjimurje in English and Međimurska in Croatian. Electionworld 21:13, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bahasa Serbia

Thanks, I've changed it. Muijz 00:04, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A new "intro" for Yugoslavia

I don't like the current intro on Yugoslavia - it's inaccurate, not in prose and looks ugly :) I wanted to write a new intro but it turned out rather long (see User:Zocky/Sandbox). I'm not sure what to do with it now. I'm toying with the idea to make it into the history section (as it's formatted now) and move the text from the current history section to History of Yugoslavia, where it would probably need to be expanded some more. Any ideas ? Zocky 14:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Brankovici

Joy, you can make distinction between two Brankovici despots if you know when exactly each of them ruled. Djuradj Brankovic ruled between 1427 and 1456, while his grandson Djordje Brankovic ruled between 1486 and 1496. Besides this, I saw your language templates. I created bs-2 (Bosnian) language template, so you can add this one to your page. :) User:PANONIAN

Ok, I will try to make a proper redirect wherever George Brankovic is mentioned. User:PANONIAN

Also, maybe this could help:

• [9]
• [10]

User:PANONIAN

There are only 4 redirect pages for George/Gyorgy Brankovic. Three seems to point to proper article, but I am not sure for this one: Ferenc_Erkel. User:PANONIAN

---

Macedonians vs. Macedonian Slavs

Dear Joy, at the moment there is a poll taking place on the Macedonian Slavs talk page to which you could make a significant contribution both as a contributor and as an admin. Thank you in advance for your participation. Ivica83 13:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wish to applaud your effort to keep the poll on this neutral; I should point out that abstaining won't do it - only non-abstaining votes are counted. Septentrionalis 20:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Boroevic

hi there. i wasn´t aware that accents do not work, although they do with "í" for example? very strange.. the "von Bojna" is necessary in my opinion though. do a search, and you will find more "Boroevic von Bojna", because that was his complete name, and Wikipedia has a policy of accuracy and completeness. it is also debatable with the Boroevic or Borojevic, can you provide convincing facts that it was spelled Borojevic and that it´s the same as Boroevic? most of the literature I found says Boroevic.. Antares911 11:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Re:new stub types

Hi Joy - um, you do realise that you're meant to wait a week before making new stub templates, don't you? I mean, it's unlikely anyone would have objected to law-bio-stub, but it's worth waiting just in case anyone comes up with better suggestions for it... Grutness...wha? 00:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough - I must admit I've been very tempted to make some early too, but I feel I'm already too "pushy" on WP:WSS, so I haven't. As to SQL, I don't think I'm able to help there. Other than word processing and graphics, I'm still pretty much just an end-user as far as computers are concerned. Grutness...wha? 23:17, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Croatia ethnic-cleansing image.

Greetings Joy. I'm confused: why did you make this reversion? – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 15:13, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Ljudevit, Franks etc.

OK, thanx, I'll see. Btw, I've edited Vojna Krajina at hr wiki, and will, some time later, the article on "RSK". Since I got a lot of extra writing on various non-wiki stuff, feel free (if you find time) to alter en wiki pages on "RSK" and Vojna krajina using hr wiki material. Mir Harven 12:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

renaming cuisine of country articles

Hi, you are renaming quite a number of articles. Is there a consensus for doing so? --Vsion 21:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have a slight preference for using "/adjective/ cuisine" too, but there is also a valid reason for using "cuisine of /noun/", see comment in Talk:Cuisine of China. I just wish to highlight this to you. Good Luck! --Vsion 21:14, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

imdb template limitations

• Original reply copied here.

Actually I just tested it with Luków, as it is using the {{titlelacksdiacritics}}), although it is in the title; and it seemed to work fine. Are there any other titles that currently have them that I could try it with? <>Who?¿? 22:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Miladin Prso

Obrisao sam "srpski". Cuj, slobodno se prijavi na srpskoj Vikipediji i izmeni ono sto mislis da ne valja. Nije potrebno da tamo neko drugi menja... Sto se tice mogucih prepucavanja i problema, to ce se brzo lokalizovati. Na sr: vazi NPOV kao i na en: i nema tu sta da se raspravlja ako fakti kazu jedno a interpretacija drugo. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 28 June 2005 10:23 (UTC)

Plural migration

It's Migration, not Migrations. It is references to the "Germanic people". Nice job waiting for other members to chime in before making the move, and moving it to the wrong name, which now cant be easily fixed. Stbalbach 28 June 2005 16:45 (UTC)

Cuisine moves

I'm definitely not thrilled with the moves, and I think it would have been much more sensible to at least wait for consensus first. I've made comments at Talk:Cuisine. And ou maight want to try archiving this page now. --Dmcdevit 28 June 2005 23:27 (UTC)

Care help to a newbie? :-)

I can't sort out in Wikipedia documentation if this is posible so I decided to ask you as you seem to be experienced and you did copy-edit the article in question... On sl:Bijelo_dugme, there is a image which I'd like to display in en:Bijelo_Dugme. The image is obviously already uploaded to Wikpedia, I just have to link it. Doing the [ [Image:Bijelo dugme nasllovnica Kad bi bio bijelo dugme.jpg] ] did nothing... :-| It seems image databases are language speciffic. Is there a way to display a picture already uploaded, but in a different language section? Dijxtra 2 July 2005 15:50 (UTC)

Oops! Can we undo this?

Hello, sorry to be a bother, but I was trying to figure out how to remove a POV Template from a page and I ended up removing the POV Template from the Help page. I can't figure out how to restore it 71.113.238.12

Fixed. --Viriditas | Talk 3 July 2005 08:17 (UTC)

De-sysopping Shallot

Hi Joy. User:Shallot is still an admin. Do you have any objection to de-sysopping that user account? dbenbenn | talk 5 July 2005 16:03 (UTC)

Hungary

Hi Joy,

While doing your copyedit to this article, you altered the time of migration of Slavic tribes. Did you do it on purpose? To me, although I'm not an expert, the original EC text sounded more plausible. If this change was intentional, could you possibly support it with sources on the article's talk page?

KissL 6 July 2005 13:19 (UTC)

OK, so I'll need to pass the question on to Juro (it's apparently him who added that to the Pre-history article).

And, yes, the phrasing is way better, I forgot to say THANKS for that. :)

KissL 6 July 2005 13:48 (UTC)

Somebody's been messing around...

Vandalism. See:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/ARD_and_Jwalker&action=edit , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bosnia_and_Herzegovina&action=history etc. Mir Harven 7 July 2005 12:28 (UTC)

RFC?

In my opinion, the RFC on ARD and JWalker is confusing to the point of illegibility. There is a template for new RFCs; might I suggest that you work from there and fill in the fields? This is not really an issue of bureaucracy, it's just the fact that you would get a lot more feedback if the RFC were easier to read. Radiant_>|< July 7, 2005 12:44 (UTC)

• (in particular, "at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed" - that is far from obvious from the current text). Radiant_>|< July 7, 2005 12:44 (UTC)

You're free to join the discussion. An to invite anyone interested. I'm wailing for experts in the field <vbg>. Mir Harven 7 July 2005 13:31 (UTC)

• I'm afraid I don't have time to look into this case deeply, but if you write this down somewhat clearer I'm sure you get the feedback you seek. However, it was pointed out to me that this may be borderline vandalism? Excessive reverting (even if below the 3RR), repeatedly adding nonsense to articles, or ignoring consensus can each be grounds for blocking the user if other approaches, such as warning and discussing, have been tried well, and failed. Or you can always ask aroudn on WP:AN/I. Radiant_>|< July 7, 2005 14:10 (UTC)

Not only this..

Better check other pages (B&H etc.). It's vandalism, not just RFC mess. Mir Harven 7 July 2005 13:28 (UTC)

Hm...maybe I'm wrong. It occured to me that Talk BH page was changed. OK then..Mir Harven 7 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)

to answer your question...

... the admin who removed the "cleanup-importance" tag from all the articles that had it was David Gerard. -- Antaeus Feldspar 9 July 2005 02:17 (UTC)

Zlatiborski jezik :)

Dakle, nisu bas gluposti, ali je notacija losa. U standardnoj lingvistickoj notaciji to moze biti govor ili dijalekat (mada je i dijalekat prejaka rec). Znaci, taj bi mogao da se klasifikuje kao: IE -> balto-slovenski -> slovenski -> juzni -> zapadni -> stokavski -> ijekavski (mada mi se cini da je danas ekavsko-ijekavski) -> novi -> (jebemligasta) -> zlatiborski. Ali, to se ovde ne radi, vec se koristi uglavnom Etnologova klasifikacija; po kojoj ovaj ne moze biti zaseban jezik (poredjenja radi, standardni hrvatski i zagrebacki dijalekat sa dosta kajkavskog uticaja su medjusobno dalji nego i standardni hrvatski i standardni srpski od ovog govora). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 04:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

"Nisam odavde" ;) pa sam ukratko skontao da treba da stavim "disputed". Mada mi se cini da je zlatiborska literatura samo "dubious" (ili kako vec). Ti si tu iskusniji, pa te molim da vec sredis te tehnikalije. Inace, za koji dan cu se ovim pozabaviti (cim se malo naspavam :) ). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 04:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

E, da. Zaboravio sam da ti se zahvalim za naznaku za ovaj tekst :) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 04:40, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Zlatiborian

If you write me any sentence in English, I'll translate it for you to Serbian and to Zlatiborian. Do you want to try this? Serbian and Croatian have many common words, but I'm sure you won't ever say that Croatian is not a real language.

Croatian war

Sorry, I forgot to make the redirect again after deleting the copyvio on the page. After deleting 50 or 60 copyvios I start to get forgetful :) Thanks for putting it back.--nixie 22:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Re: Ancient-Egypt-stub

Hi Joy - you wrote: I wonder, how did you rename Egypt-stub to Ancient-Egypt-stub and change the category? I'm asking because of Template_talk:Cleanup-importance#category name.

I didn't - I simply proposed it at WP:SFD. It looks like User:Grm wnr did the actual work on the changeover. BTW - isn't it time you archived some of this page? It's extremely long! Grutness...wha? 00:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Chronicum Venetum

We'll see. Btw- this page is 141 k long. Time for page-cut. Mir Harven 18:08, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

You're right about the "yat"...

I think...but let me check my sources. why is it "ja" in Russian? And what do the Slovaks call them? And, remember, you call them "Slaveni" and not "Slavjeni". --VKokielov 18:32, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Did it come out wrong? I meant to make an e with an ogonek. --VKokielov 18:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll check first, and if it was a nasal, then I'll revert. Thank you. --VKokielov 19:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Shortcut WP:WPC

I've changed WP:WPC so that it now goes to WikiProject Countries, and added that shortcut to the project page. WP:Cal is the new shortcut for WikiProject California. BlankVerse ∅ 22:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Zlatiborski, opet

E, ovaj je napravio krs svojih zlatiborsko-nacionalnih clanaka. Da neko pravi slicnu pricu o Vojvodjanima, opet bi tu bilo velikih problema glede tacnosti podataka (npr. ne postoji vojvodjanska nacionalnost [niko se ne izjasnjava tako; odnosno, ako se neko tako izjasnjava, u pitanju je broj ljudi koji ne ulazi ni u kakve statistike], iako su Vojvodjani znatno blizi tako necem). Da se slikovito izrazim: to bi bilo kao da neko kaze da na postoji nacija/etnicitet sa Cresa. Dakle, na odredjenim clancima sam stavljao da su disputed (napravicu potpuni spisak clanaka), mada mi se cini da su za brisanje; ukljucujuci i sliku image:Симбол Института.JPG, koju koristi "The Institute for the Zlatiborian language and literature". Dakle, koliko shvatam, za disputed je dovoljno da objasnim na strani za razgovor o cemu se radi, dok mi ono drugo (ukljucujuci {{ifd}}) zvuci previse naporno. Sve u svemu, kao sto rekoh, nisam bas preterano upucen u metode upozorenja, pa te molim da uzmes stvari u svoje ruke. Covek ili hoce da izvrgne ruglu Vikipediju ili ima opsesivnu zelju da napravi zlatiborsku naciju. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 07:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Sumerian

Who associates highly sumerian origin of magyars with racism, fascism etc.? [11]. In hungary, mainly communists, in abroad, mainly pan-slavic racist anti-hungarian propagandists. Gubbubu 19:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC) (hungarian)

Dead Facts, not live horses

My response to UCLA and the other stuff is on My talk page. I'm about the last person on earth to get into the ethnic arguments -- far too cowardly. Geogre 15:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/ARD and Jwalker

Thank you very much for notifying me. Sango123 17:28, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Re:Re:Sumerian

Sorry then, I surely missed it. Gubbubu

Question

Friend...I apologize for asking something which may be obvious, but as an educated person I wanted to get the real "low down"...aside from alphabet, how different in intelligibility are Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian? Thanks a lot! ~ Dpr 05:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all your help! So basically, if you are proficient in one, you will understand about 80-90% of the others? ~ Dpr 19:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional information. I understand. I suspect that's true of several clusters of partially-mutually intelligible languages/variants. Best! ~ Dpr 22:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

From Sargeras

OK, I have added three paragraphs in our discueeion; first concerning about Serbia-Vojvodina and Croatia-Dubrovnik; second concerning several more facts and the last containing a short summary of the entire history of Dubrovnik and the sorroundings.

I must say that I am surprised to see so much falso info; I admire the Habsburgs, and yet their years are not correct. The years differ on different pages (same peoples' years). I have corrected several, but I am simply sick of correcting others. Then, in the page concerning the history of Bulgaria, look at the years in which the Bulgarians became ORthodox Christians (even BEFORE the two churches split?). And at the page with our discussion on Croatia, Shallot says that Yugoslavia is a socialist country (the correct use is country, not state) based on the fact that it's name was The Federative Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia. How about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? And the existence of the communist party of Yugoslavia (KPJ)? And, plus, all the discussions about the errors I start, no one seems to be interested! I hate changing info without other peoples' agreeing.

As for another matter, I need a third party opinion. Tell me what do you think is the number of executed in the Independant State of Croatia. Now, you write in range (x-y) and write other peoples' sources, but I would preffer if you would just give your scale.

P. S. this page is far too long; split it or delete some closed discussions Sargeras 12:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Ahm, OK, but what about my three paragraphs at the discussion and the fact that this page is too long? And I wanted your personnal opinion, written by you. P. S. Will you help me preserve the correct onfo of Wikipedia? (onsidering the above-mentioned) Sargeras 12:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Nm, I just noticed several Serbist propaganda articles, but they're gone now, silly me :). You're totally right on the other matter. It is unfortunate that history repeated itself so primitivly in the civil war of Yugoslavia. I have seen a part of the city turned into a death-camp and I have also seen rivers of corpses floating across the rivers. Horrors that spreaded from Istria to Kosovo will be remembered only by us that have seen that; and their truthful horrific story will never be told. NTW I have written a little more in the discussion of Croatia. Hope that you get time to read it. :) Sargeras 09:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, Joy, since you're probably not there I am closing the discussion :( I would still like to hear one thing from you: What woul you do, if you were the president of the Republic of Croatia in 1989? Imagine that I am the president of the Federation of Yugoslavia; and try to re-enact things. Rewrite history. Do your best; I know that it is almost impossible to ask someone to think on that matter, but just try it out. I really want to hear you out. (Start from the rapid decrease of Yugoslav centralised power, and with the ascending of the separatist movements in Slovenia, now about to come to Croatia too) Well, I will be waiting. Sargeras 17:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, where the heck are you??? Sargeras 12:16, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

You have to nominate early for DYK

You should know the policy is to not put items older than 72 hours on DYK, which is why I could not accept Ivan Lupis in the latest update. Next time send it up a little earlier if you can. Thanks.--Pharos 02:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• Interesting facts certainly don't cease to be interesting after three days, but the point of DYK isn't really to highlight interesting facts; it's to highlight some of the better of the very newest articles, to show how Wikipedia is growing all the time.--Pharos 18:53, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Actually I've been thinking about it, and I see your point. The overly short period does hamper article quality and variety of selection, among other things. Please see my proposal to extend the period to 7 days at Wikipedia talk:Did you know.--Pharos 20:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Serbs

I think that this article has no need to be locked any more. You can just block that user. --M. Pokrajac 08:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

List of people by nationality

You're obviously a highly respected user around these parts. Respect to you on that. However, I feel I ought to mention that I'm having trouble with the page List of people by nationality. Over the past week or so I've put in loaaaads of work adding new nationalities, but still respecting the original editorial suggestions, yet it has been turned back to its original skeletal state. What would you suggest? - Anadine.

Thank you!

Thank you for your welcome! Yes, I already thought about writing an article about Rovinj and I'll do it as soon as possible... ;) --Ivana 11:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

You may be interested

You might be interested in this current vote: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Roman Catholics -Doohickey

Dialects in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia

E, ovo je besmislica. Kao sto sam ti tamo rekao, taj pojam je bio SFRJ propaganda. Niti su cakavski i kajkavski srpski li bosnjacki; niti je torlacki bosnjacki ili hrvatski. A sistemi su medju stok., kajk., cakav. i torl. su toliko razliciti, da ih je smesno trpati u isti kos ako ne postoje politicko-propagandni razlozi. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll let the citations speak

From Morocco: Morocco was the first nation to recognize the fledgling United States in 1777 and has the oldest non-broken friendship treaty with the country, the Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship, which has been in effect since 1783. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were the American signatories. The United States legation (consulate) in Tangier, is the first property the U.S. owned abroad. It now houses the Tangier American Legation Museum. Morocco was granted Major Non-Nato Ally status in June 2004 and signed free trade agreements with the United States and the European Union.

From Republic of Dubrovnik: In 1776, The Ragusan Republic became the first foreign power to recognize the government of the United States.

How shall we sort it out? How does one sort out these trivia? --VKokielov 02:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Answer on Isthmus of Dubrovnik

• Ahhhh - in edit mode, you would have seen the imbedded comment noting that the isthmus is part of the isthmus category, not to mention notable and famous in and of itself, inasmuch as Dubrovnik rivaled Venice (and still does, at least as a tourist city, in many ways) as a major player in the Mediteranean Sea during the late middle ages and early renesance. I'd guess with a little digging, the isthmus itself should turn up some interesting information sufficient to flesh out a short article. I was merely trying to expand an article that referenced it, so thus wiki grows! FrankB 23:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
• Darn! To make matters worse, I just discovered my original fixes and edits to Isthmus ended up so deep in collateral edits of things dealing with Ice Ages, Glaciers and related esoterica such as Snowball Earth, that my original all-but-finished edit (? edits?!!!) evidently got shoved out of temporary memory, so denying me time to save it (and probably one or two others). Darn it, hate when that happens!

FrankB

suzerainty

So many times you have had to correct me, it is nice to just once return the favor. ;-) Dejvid 18:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

measurements

hi shallot, i thought i could ask you or one of your friends a somewhat technical question. what units of measurement does croatia use? i assume they use metric, but what about for pressure? does the country use bar or kpa? or something else? do you know where i can find more info on the subject? thanks, jeff

Removing comments

OK, I removed my comments only. Pleased?--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 11:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Minor edits to History of Croatia

Dobro večer. My apologies for having introduced errors whilst I was making all those edits to History of Croatia and thank you for having corrected me :o) — OwenBlacker 19:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Paddy Ashdown

Dear Joy - regardnig my removal of the last sentence from the article on Paddy Ashdown- see my comments in the discussion about the article - MarianL 08:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

TEmplate:catneeded

A very very good and needed idea, just would it be possible to get some bot going over pages and adding this template? There is Perle and some other. Because I doubt that anybody will manually add it since it's much easier to add a category itself.

Stubs, xxxx births or deaths, 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, and bunch of other clean up & maintenance categories should not be counted as valid categories. Renata3 11:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

History of Dalmatia

Hi Joy,

why did you returned the lines that aren't supposed to be there?

Eastern Orthodoxy came in Dalmatian Hinterland in 18th century, with fugitives from Ottoman territory. But if you count from the Great Shism, Eastern Orthodoxy was at first in the cities. Byzantium. Hinterland itself was divided between Roman Catholicism and Bogomil creed, when the latter appeared.

Dalmatian city-states fell back for support to anyone who was willing to "help", when necessary. Not just Venice.

Then, there is no need for the line "Dalmatia never attained a political or racial unity and never formed as a nation...". Why it should? Neither Pannonia attained it, but nobody mentions it. Dalmatia always was just an administrative region, which got its name after the Illyric tribe that lived only on the part of that territory.

Sincerely, Kubura 15:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

bash shell disambiguate in Unix

Joy, I put in the proper link to the bash shell in the Unix article. The original one was a redlink. Please test the link before you revert my edit. If you think it is better, maybe we should create a redirect from Bash shell to Bash. Gbeeker 15:23, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Umm, you broke the link by adding " shell". The edit was unnecessary at the time when it was done, so I had rolled it back. Someone created that redirect in the meantime. --Joy [shallot] 20:50, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I actually removed the ' shell' to fix the redlink. I suspect that the redirect may have been in flux when you did the revert. No harm done, it all looks good now. Gbeeker 21:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I saw the discussion about vandalism (Request for Comment) and the medeival principalities

Wait a moment.

Didn't the Christian Church split after 1000 AD?

So how do you distinguish a Serb from a Croat before then? --VKokielov 18:15, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course. But then the Serbs should annex Lusatia.  ;) --VKokielov 23:49, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Croatian "RSK" census

Idi vidi http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Republika_Srpska_Krajina, "Netko nema pojma..." Mir Harven 22:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, this 450+ k population figure from 1992 to 1995 is laughable. They (Martić, Babić, Hadžić,..whoever) inflated those figures to boost a morale. The numner was from 200 k to 250 k in all four sectors. http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska_Krajina#Procjene_broja_stanovnikaMir Harven 08:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• • The official census held in the spring of 1991, just before the war began, showed that 555,540 people lived in the territory of what became the RSK. Of these,

   * 331,619 (59,7%) were Serbs,
   * 168,026 (30,2%) were Croats and
   * 55,895 (10,1%) were other Yugoslavs, Muslims, Hungarians, Slovaks etc.

• • The increase in the Krajina's Serbian population was almost certainly due to Serbs from other parts of Croatia moving to the Krajina to escape ethnic tensions in their home regions.

• • Where did you get these fairy tale figures from ? There is the official Croatian census published in numerous books- and it is given at the second table on the page. The figures (300 + k Serbs etc.) you put here are a pure fiction. If needs, I'll put the whole stuff online. Just as ICTY sloppy rubbish isn't enough. Geez...Mir Harven 14:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • Then, delete the trash. Why endorse someone's crappy math ? Mir Harven 16:44, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected articles

Just letting you know that I unprotected lots of Serbia and Bosnia related articles that I see you protected back in July. They had been protected for over a month, and I feel that's too long for a wiki. I also removed their listing from Wikipedia:Protected page. Let's hope this long period of protection has helped things to calm down. Shanes 23:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, well

My dear friend Joy-shallot, I had noticed that someone has re-arranged the info in the Croatia article, percisly not to include the Serbian history (twice Dubrovnik) as it says that it was originally Byzantine (Roman) and Venetian. Between those two stood ", Serbian" before as it became a part of Duklja before Venetia. I scrolled across the Croatian Dubrovnik-concerning websites, and I noticed that not only the Serbian perios is completly missing, but they mentioned tw times in the history when Dubrovnik was frontiering a Croatian state (besides the fact that it was engulphed by a Serbian nearly all the time). I don't mind it, I got very much used to being discriminated just for being an Orthodox, as I spent the last three weeks in Croatia. I can't tell you in short notice my experiences, but I asure you, you won't like them. Everywhere where I turned I saw only hatred, further destruction and etc. I will write to you, if that isn't a problem, as I need an opinion of someone... well... of a Croat (you made me say this you know, I was going to say Catholic Yugoslav). I noticed that in the history of Croatia, it says: "The civilian population fled the areas of armed conflict en masse: generally speaking, thousands of Croats moved away from the Bosnian and Serbian border, while thousands of Serbs moved towards it." and at several other cases it keeps forcing the reader to understand that Serbs are evil. It does not mention the hundreds of thousands of Serbs that abandoned their homes, forcibly; nor the thousands killing in 1991-1992 in Osijek, during Bljesak and Oluja, and after the war; in the 1995-1997 turmoil years which saw major ethnic cleansing (the Croatian government calls it "criminal acts"). That sentence I quotted makes the reader think that the Frontier had only a minority of Serbs and that only later "thousands moved in". When in fact, it happenned with the cities like Knin: tens of thousands of Serbs moved out, tens of thousands of Croats moved-in. I also noticed it says that Alexander was assassinated by radical groups (evading to mention the Ustaša and VMRO separatist movements) P. S. I discovered that the Bosnian and Frontier Serbs were generally called Četniks and Croats Ustašas; that is the reason why I referred to "Ustasha war plans". Oh, and, don't be mad at me, by I noticed that you rather make me proove things are NOT true, rather that making me proove that they are. And I would like a mention of Croatia's gigantic refugee problem in it's article (if that is even possible). 212.62.33.4 10:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

You can respond to me in here. HolyRomanEmperor 16:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Could you please look at http://www.hrvatskiustaskipokret.com and the links there? Send me a comment, will you? HolyRomanEmperor 17:19, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Višegrad

I'm glad to have your input on the page for Višegrad. I've read Andrić's The Bridge on the Drina and am looking for a more extensive history of Višegrad. - Ghidra99

Sheshelj

I'm not so worried about Sheshelj as I am worried about whether it is wise to talk about rhotacism and the quality of oration. Especially when his rhotacism has naught to do with the dirt of his character. --VKokielov 15:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Archive???

Did you ever think of archiving this page? You could use User talk:Joy/Archive 1 or something similar. Your talk page is quite long and takes a while to load for some of our slower users. Just thought I'd mention it. --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I figured you would know how. I was just trying to be helpful to those of us with really slow computers. Pardon my intrusion. My humblest apologies if I offended you. --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 21:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

May I ask why? I won't post about this topic again on your talk page, since it's so long already, and there is no need for me to make it any longer than it has to be. --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Class action against the vatican

Well done , and I am very glad you are so multi-lingual . It is strange co-incidence that you seem to have done this work at this moment in time . I just re-highlighted Bill Dorich on the BXVI page . I am having a lot of trouble from Str1977 , ever since I entered this organ . I strongly suggest you police the other language versions to be able to see how deep the apologia goes . Of course my appearance here alerts him and others to your presence, but then they will see what you have done anyway . This is all very sad and dirty , but it always was . Oh dear . Famekeeper 22:13, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I can only suggest you read the discussion page on BXVI and follow my sordid history . I have a head-ache . it takes me a thousand lines of fighting to get one line of text in here . I am deeply peeved at what has to be church intervention - either that or I am mentally ill . I had a life , work . I need help , but not for an illness , unless WP is an illness . I get Str reverting me any time I do anything controversial , and Robert McClenon more recently . I pretty much have had to abandon honest attempts at editing and just remain arguing on discussions. Mind you , I can see their point of view .If I ever do write anything new, its like a race before the whirlwind sweeps it away . They are shameless- but appear superficially quite reasonable , until you see what they achieve . G'night.Famekeeper

ICE

Hi, I hadn't realized that you had made a revert on redirecting this. Could you see my comments on Talk:ICE (disambiguation)? Zoe 23:38, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Re: reparation demands

"As far as calling it gigantic, I don't think that's accurate, because many of the refugees have waived their status as such - there were only about 14,000 house reparation demands registered with the government at the peak, which would imply that a large part of those 140,000 Croatian Serbs in Serbia never filled out the forms. Well, either that or all families had ten members, which is impossible." you said. I find that I am very insulted by that claims. Most of the Serbs can't go back because the Croatian government won't pay the damages. We have been fighting that Croatia repairs our two hous for that past eight years; sending formulars for 16 times alltogether. And we hired a lawyer to get us back our apartment in Karlovac. He was a Serb; and everyone called him a "četnik lawyer" so we had to find a Croat. You see, they said that they won't return it because we weren't there for six months reporting! (we couldn't because of the war)The lawyer said that we have a case because the man moved into our apartment two months after we left. But after eight years of endless payments to the lawyer and struggle we simply couldn't afford it and have noticed that the Croatian government actually does not want to ever return our things. So, while my cousins are here dying on the streets of hunger (Serbia is a very poor country when it reffers to refugees) because they spent their last nickels to send those forms, with only a tiny hand actually returning, I find you very offendive :(.

It is me, Sargeras, reffer to me this way. HolyRomanEmperor 12:48, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Let me hear yo out

Here we go; please, do read carefully this, as I want to hear your comments. I was very surprised when I payed a visit to our grandfatherland; as, unlike I expected, the nationalistic ferver GREW in the past few years; not only amongst catholic Croatians (Croats), but Orthodox Croatians (Serbs, if you MUST) too.

1. I was very dissapointed when I saw Sanja's Top Show several years ago (I really liked the Yugoslav New Phosils group); as it's sole purpose was Croatian propaganda. Although, the situation is much clearer there as it is now a rather amsing show. I guess those Germans that bought RTL have finally saw it with their own eyes.

2. The Show: "Oluja nad olujama" (the Storm of storms). I have noticed that the show-man kept repeating: "...after the Serbs (generalizing again) have committed the greatest crime since World War II..." which is at least a little exaggarating. Some time, in the middle of the show, a general said that there were indeed cases during and after the Storm Operation (just after that French official proclaimed that the Storm was a genocide operation, whether planned or not) like Varivode. I can't even BELIEVE that he LIED ON NATIONAL TELEVISION. Guess from which village I was watching that show..... I will give you a hint... Varivode. I have been visiting my grandparents there for the past 5 years, and I asure you; NO ONE WENT TO PRISON FOR THE CRIMES. There were several accusations, but the suspected were released. The entire village was torched and the few survivors had been brutally killed, except one, a cousin of mine, Marija Dukić. She had witnessed the slaughter and wonderously escaped certain death. When she fled to the main road, she hitchhiked a ride. The driver asked her: "How many of you (Serbs) are still down there?" she answered: "well, around 15." She lied; everyone was killed in the village. She lied because she KNEW that they would either leave her or dump her somewhere in the wilderness. The driver then added: "...and you Serbs are even complaining that we aren't dressing you nicely..." Then someone compared the rockets launched at Zagreb with the Germans' V1 and V2. But then I saw president Franjo Tuđman, of whome there is no doubt that he was a criminal, and heard his nationalistic, and even for Croats exaggerated testimonies; like, after greeting the capture of Knin, the expulsionof Serbs from it and the fall of Krajina. he said something like: "...it was a croatian uprising, in the spirit of the Croatian people of Croatia; a true Croatian spiritual thing. " etc. Then I saw several recordings of Croatian soldiers spreading "justice" and "rightiousness". Then they interviewed a Croatian citizen in a town that was just released. He said: "My wife is Serb, she ran off with the other Serbs when your forces invaded..." and the soldier-journalist said: "WHAT? She LEFT YOU?!?" Then another journalist was interviewing an old lady that lived with the Serbs in the former Frontier (Krajina) about the worthlessness of the serbian valute "dinar". The lady said "I don't know; I can't remember" for at least five times and the journalist kept harrassing her. When the Croatian populace started to talk about the "orthodox returners" and them not returning mostly; the recordings were stopped.

3. Then there was a football player of the Croatian representation when it played against Brazil. He said: "When God helped us before, outside the playground, why shouldn't he help us here?"

4. I have noticed that in general, Croat- was being forced until recently. For instance, during the sport competitions, it was said: "...dragi Hrvati i Hrvatice..." but that is not today like it, because Croatia has far too many tourists to use that kind of propaganda.

5. Then I noticed in the programme, when te TV show "Jelena" was announced, in its short description it said: "serbian show" when at other places it reffers to drama, humoristic show... etc.

6. Everything Serb in Croatia is generally, minimized. Nikola Tesla is surely, accepted, but they now ask that Belgrade returns them his remains. The ethnicity which Croatia (almost generaly) rejected now wants a member of their society. Then, on several occasions reffering to the Croatian national anthem "Lijepa naša", it was said that it was written by an Orthodox Croat; even though there is a slight possibility that that even may be true, it is a well-known fact that he concidered himself a Serb Frontiersman. I hate when I see declarations like "Croatia will be PURE of Serbs" and hear "Lijepa naša" in the background. When there was a show about the famous agent 007, Bond, James Bond, it was said that the writer was insipired by a friend of his, unknown exactly who he was. We all know that it was an agent in the British Intelligence that was, well, if you will, a Serb.

7. Then there is the Branimir Glavaš situation. That evil-doer and cold-blooded killer is today a wealthy and appealed Croatian polititian. He commanded the BOB (Braminir's Osijak Battle-unit) which did terrible acts of torture and liquidation in Slavonia. It is a well-known fact that he not only KNEW about the ethnic cleansing, but ORDERED it as well. Đorđe Petrović and Čedomir Vučković were captured, beaten, forced to drink liquid acid and eliminated, later. There were places in the Dubrovnik street were these acts were covertly committed, one including a private house. The first witness was Josip Fehir who was sent to work for Glavaš by his own father, Krunoslav Fehir. Josip was a witness-under-protection. His identity was hidden. And Krunoslav, his own father, blew up his son's cover... As the witness claimed the first man was eliminated in front of Glavaš's very own eyes. And then Glavaš ordered: "Immediatly eliminate the other." Two more witnesses appeared against Glavaš, one of them possiblz Andrija Getoš Branimir Glavaš is nowdays resting on an Adriatic Island with several cars a yacht, his own private Mansion and a very young girl. He only stated that: "...and if you want to know anything about the things that happenned there, you should ask Šeks, for he was the one in charge there."

8. Vladimir Šeks, in Karlovac announced several times in 1991 that "...the Serbs will not be able to lead a policy like they have before..." and several other threats. Next to indirectly being involved in the crimes of Branimir Glavaš, he is one of the most powerdul men in Croatia.

9. Anto Đapić, the mayor of Osijek had claimed several outrageous facts the Osijek was a "peaceful zone".

10. everyone can remember the Paulin Dvor...

11. Ante Gotovina; look at http://www.antegotovina.com/ by the way

12. Karlovac is my birth place, and my beloved city, and yet today is a terrifying warzone. The criminal in Karlovac is amongst the highest in all of Croatia (one Roma woman has around six children and they are constantly looting). The beautiful Orthodox Church of St. Nikola in Karlovac was burned by the Ustaše members of the Croatian Army. The government had payed for the reconstruction of the church not so long ago. A construction fence was raised around it. No long ago, on the fence was written: "you build, and we will tear down again" next to a huge U. My dad's friend, one of the main people assigned for that project sarcasticly invented a slogan: "you tear down, but will pay again, and so shall we build again."

13. Knin: the SDSS (Serbian Democratic Self-Directive Party) formed a coalition with HDZ so that it could remain in power; while on regional elections, in Knin, HDZ "couldn't come with an agreement with the Serbs" as said the 25-year-old mayor of Knin. She said, in honor of the Storm Operation, that "...the people have returned and peace and prosperity can begin again..." when in fact, most of the citizenz of Knin are living in exile, outside (which is the reson why SDSS got so many votes) and the current citizens are newcomers mostly. It was also said that "...Knin's once famous factories and companies have crumbled and the city has lost it's greatness..." Ofcourse, that happens in a place when you generally change it's population.

14. Crvena Zvezda: The journalist Milan Jajčinović spoke about the return of "Arkan's Warriors" a. k. a. "the Red Devils" to Croatia. He spoke that there is no doubt that they will be wild, destructive as they were... etc

15. When I visited Kistanje, you don't even want to hear how tense the situation is there: the Croats hate the Serbs, the Serbs hate the Croats....

16. General-Colonel of HV (Croatian Army), Mladen Kruljac, ordered a deserted JNA (People's Army of Yugoslavia) sniperist, Tomislav Abramović, to shoot several civilians, as his ex-soldier Želimir Dragočević claims. And I donćt need to mention the cold war between Mladen Kruljan and Ante Prkačin that goes on still today.

17. During the Inter Zaprešić-Crvena Zvezda match, the Croatian police and para-military forces kept the Delije (cheerers of Crvena Zvezda) that had come from Serbia under a strong grip. Several of them were returned to Serbia just because they showed "three fingers". A citizen of Zagreb, the capital of Croatia, Stefan Nemanja, was beaten by several brigands just because he wore the "compomising T-shirt of 60 years of Crvena Zvezda". And a huge array of weaponry was confiscated that was prepared for the Delije. Several Crvena Zvezda busses were even hit, and the most "original" attack on the Delije was a tiny rocket launch. The cheerers of Zeprešić have even sang several Ustaše songs! Remember what said Milan Jajčinović?

18. The State-of-Union of Serbia and Montenegro has requested from the Republic of Croatia that the Croatian government should pay a war damage in the amount of around 4,5 billion Euros: 2.000.000.000 for the lost years-of-service; 1.000.000.000 for the apartments; 420.000.000 for buisiness locals; 267.900.000 for houses; 244.500.000 for the furniture; 190.500.000 for the automobiles; 191.500.000 for the tractors; 190.500.000 for the cattle; 15.200.000 for ranges, 22.800.000 for electric ranges; 25.000.000 for washing machines; 22.200.000 for refrigerators; 22.800.000 for TVs; 8.800.000 for the heaters; other household artefacts were not counted. That would not be fer both as the number is too little, and it should not be payed to the SCG government but to US, after all, WE are the victims, not THEM. I have heard that there were several acusations that the number is far too high. If my father's house, our apartment (with artifacts and works of art dating from the Industrial Ages) and my Grandparents' house, together with all the forests, vineyards, olive trees, crop fields and animals (that were used for target practise) yield not much below 1.000.000 Euros, what do you think what is all-together? And were 380.032 emigrated refugess from 1991-1995 in Croatia; not counting several hundreds of thousands that are still concidered citizens of Croatia, only in refuge.

19. the Croatian journalist in New York, Jadranka Jureško-Keto, is a very vile person. She said: "The Serbs have (generalizing, again) Vuk Drašković in their politics who claimed in 1965 that Jasenovac was a gargantuan crime, and in 2005 that the Storm was a genocide operation." The intonation of that sentence was probably supposed to be sarcastic. In 1965. as she claims, Franjo Tuđman stopped Tito from raising the "600.000-900.000 victim memorial of the Jasenovac internment capm; and claimed later that the number was 28,000. The numbers of Jasenovac were over 50,000 CONFIRMED back then; and now, the number is around 80,000-100,000 althought the frequent researchers of many scientists (Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, German, American, Russian, etc.) cross 300,000-350,000 and go as high as 700,000. She also wrote: "The Serbian "Veritas" claims that 250.000 Serbs were exiled and 2.500 killed in the Storm" (both numbers are very different and a little higher, actually) Then she wrote: "We Croats don't have Franjo Tuđman from 1965. so that he can negate even these false claims."

20. After Croatia lost to Serbia and Montenegro in (vaterpolo, pomozi) the Croatian trainer claimed that: "...we will be able to defeat the Serbo-Montenegrins as soon as 2007. if the team (and the state) don't fall apart before it."

21. in the night betwen 18th and 19th July this year Čedo (80) and Miljko (71) Medić were assaulted in their own homes and beaten in the Lišani Ostrovički. They are not safe even in a Serbian-populated town-village.

22. Borovo and Trpinja were mined several times (the areas populated by Serbs)

23. Dušan Karić was LINCHED in Karin near Obrovac. The Croatian authorities first claimed that the Serbs had done it in order to make the Croats the bad guys, then withdraw that claim.

24. 1.908 returners were on the list of thise who had to be arrested and judged for crimes. The number fell to around 1.400 after the Croatian authorities were forced to make a revision. S.K. was arrested in Baljci near Drniš, Belimir Stanković, the man whome he "harrassed" didn't identify him and he was released. S. Š. was acused of harrassing Croats in Ervenik near Knin in 1992. In 1993.togethor with 29 more people, he was acused and convictd for 10 to 15 years of prison. None of the acused were present on the trial. When he voluntarelz surrendered, the trial was led again, and ALL of the witnesses had changed their testimonies. He was released.

25. The Logic of Victory: A journalist bz the name of Davor Ivanković said: "The Americans threw nuclear bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki; the Soviets killed nearly 10,000 German refugees in the Baltic by sunking their boats; Winston Churchil had aproved the bombing of Dresden, a city with minimal military security and hundreds of thousands of German refugees; yet they all WON. Why couldn't Storm then, no matter of the casualties or exiled populace be concidered a Victorius operation?" Well, if he is still primitive like that, then why don't we send him to Alexander the Great of Macedon in the 4th century B.C., ad let him burn-down rebelling Thebes for Alexander and either kill in place, or take to slavery its citizens.

26. and yet the journalist Jasmina Popović speaks with words of both great wisdom and a little offensive to the Serbs. She said: "What to do with them: they can't go back, since they rebelled against their authorities and committed heavy atrocities, nor can they stay in exile!?"

HolyRomanEmperor 12:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Srijem

Joy, why have You moved my article to Srem/Srijem? I don't want to unnecessarilly multiply the articles, but there is already the article with Hungarian name Szerem, then article with Serbian name Srem, why are You putting my Srijem under Serbian term (why the page isn't Srijem/Srem, this way is Srem on the first place?). Why can't we, the Croats, have a page, which has Croatian name? If You want to merge articles, You could've merge Szerem to Srem also. Generally, it should be Syrmia, which is international term for our Srijem.Kubura 13:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Template about name dispute

Please check Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Macedonian_naming_dispute. Perhaps you can share your opinion and clarify the creation of this template. Thanks. MATIA 13:58, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Since you, Joy, were there "at the beginning" so to speak, can you explain for me why there is a template for the Macedonia naming dispute, but not for the Chinese, Samoan, or New Guinean naming disputes, to name a few. It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a well-organized clique dedicated to enforcing their viewpoint has subverted normal Wikipedia standards in this area. Is that right? Thanks for your time, Friejose 14:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I left a response on my talk page for you, Friejose 15:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Serbian point of view

Even if it is your opinion that the government of Croatia were "a group of unelected wannabe criminals", this is totally unacceptable in an encyclopedia article, and not in accordance with our Wikipedia:NPOV policy. It was previously dediced not to label any state "puppet state", as in the case of the German Democratic Republic and other states which were, from a western point of view, viewed as Soviet puppet states. Also, "attack" is not a neutral wording. Italy and Germany were allied with the King of Yugoslavia and the intervention was approved by the legal head of state. This needs to made clear in the article. I'm going to remove any POVs or attempts to rewrite history from Serbian POV which are inserted there. 83.109.161.6 14:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It is not for Wikipedia to decide which governments are "legal", which would have terrible implications and lead to endless disputes, and which have nothing with NPOV to do. The Croatian government was the actual government of Croatia, and we have to stick to it, just like we have to stick to the fact that the various communist governments of Eastern Europe were the actual government of those states, even if considered "illegal" by former or current governments. 83.109.161.6 15:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Concerning proposal

That should not be done because the computer that I (Zec) sometimes use has other users that might occasionally be editing on wikipedia Zec 23:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

== Sorry ==

I found that I accidently responded to you in the ICE section, :( sorry.

"During which time was it part of Duklja? I can't say I recall which exact period you are talking about. It's important because the Duklja before Stefan Nemanja was not actually very Serbian, saying it like that would be a distortion of another kind. --Joy [shallot] 11:56, 23 August 2005 (UTC)" If you want, I will give you a detailed mapped info about Dubrovnik and it's Serbia-Croatia relations. And what do you mean not mentioning Serbia before Stefan Nemanja??? It is a well-known fact that it was called Rascia (Raška) until the forming of Tsar Dušan the Great's Empire of Serbs, Arbanasses and Greeks, after which (although a feudal anarchic period until the Ottomans was in store) Serbia was the general name in use. And the union of Rascia and Bosnia (later inculding Zeta/Docleia and Zahumlje/Hum) is the concidered a first unified Serbia and that was even before Docleian Serbia.

And you missed my notes of the history of Croatia articles being rather far too short. A reader would think that Croatia is a war-torn country that was created in a civil war (by un-orthodox means) with "some ancient lineage" Where are Tomislav, Krešimir, Zvonimir, Mihajlo Pupin's legacy, Nikola Tesla, Grgur Ninski, Josip Runjanin, etc...?

A link to Montenegro and Serbia is still wanted, you know?

HolyRomanEmperor 11:01, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know and understand everything you meant (by the way, you can freelly if you want stop being so polite in our discussions, I have seen by now that you are a good, truthful person; quitte opposite of Mir Hrven) but you should see some of his contributions. Even you told him, once "... I don't know even how do you expect to be taken seriously" on one matter. And I think that he is well, something at least a little more than a Croatian nationalist. He openly speaks about global Serbian fascism. HolyRomanEmperor 13:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

And why do you not want to connect Duklja etc. with Serbia? Prince Petar Gonjiković (892.-917.), the ruler of Rascia, Docleia/Zeta, Travunia with Konavli, Hum and Paganija/Neretvia is generally concidered as the first known Serb leader/ruler. Then the Principality of Dalmatia, ruled by Princes Višeslav, Trpimir and Mucimir from 800.-910. and the Principality of Pannonia, ruled by Princes Ljudevit Posavski (819.-828.) and Braslav (880.-910.) cannot be concidered Croatian states? But everyone accepts these facts... I would like the links to Montenegro and Serbia in the Croatia article, please.HolyRomanEmperor 13:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, now, what about the upper-mentioned? HolyRomanEmperor 13:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the borders of Peter Gojniković's Serbia are the first know borders. Just give me several days and I will upload his country's territories. Why didn't you continue to read my very-long post??? HolyRomanEmperor 17:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Either you're not there, or you're ignoring my posts. You put the link to Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Croatia article. The Georgaphy article is only leading to Serbia and Montenegro (I meant seperatly, as two different countries related to Croatia) There is the lets-say-from-a-foreign-point-of-view same language. The History of the countries is as close as Germany and Austria; and far more closer than England and America. Their mentioning is simply logical. I don't understand your need to make me more percise. HolyRomanEmperor 14:29, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize, my friend (I guess I have some kind of a phobia that you will forget about my posts :) ) I will wait as long as you want me to. Could you read Mir Harven's posts on talk page? HolyRomanEmperor 18:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Mir Harven

For Gods' sake Joy-Shallot, this Mir Harven keeps speaking of total nonsence. WHat is wrong with thaat man??? He says that the WWII death toll was too high; that that Republika Srpska is an illegal state based on chetnik fascism and ideology of pro-serbism and ethnic cleansing! There are many other things... HolyRomanEmperor 21:57, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Croatia is nothing but a fascistic and nationalistic state based on Ustaša ideology (the fact that the Croatian people is Croatian by itself and in many other factors, and can not be compared to any other nation in the world). The traces of Croatian extreme Croatian nationalism date back as far as the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja, from the Docleian times, which has many un-accurate and false facts, probably some were even "slipped-in" recently and is generally, mainly fictional. The book "came-to-the-surface" and is accepted by many Croats only recently, probably because of the harsh Croatian nationalism. It is a lame fact such sources are "digged-out" only for national propaganda. Croatia was created by King Tomislav, who expanded the country significantyl and waged wars on its Hungarian and Bulgarian rivals. Tomislav was known as a protector of Serbs later; and his plans were probably encompassing the creation of a unified Sour Slav state (Sclavinia) first by acquiring all Serbian territories. But Tomislavć's enlightening rule cam to passč and the new Croatian rulers were harsh nationalists who executed several Serb officials that had fled from the Bulgars to Croatia with the Serbian Prince Časlav. Prince Časlav reconstructed Serbia, annexed the Prinicipality of Bosnia from the Kingom of Croatia (because its population was majorly Serbian and the local Serbs didn't like Croatia as a national monarchy), but died in combat with the Hungarians, tried to stop their advance across the Danube. Bosnia became an independant Principality and finally completly abandoned the primitive and age-old ways of Croatia, and paved the way for the creation of an important (Serbian, later also, to a point, Croatian) Realm. Later, Croatia became a part of the Kingdom of Hungary. It was ruled, during it's first several ages, by the Šubići (a dinasy which later became of Serb blood as well). The region later underwent a period of Hungarization and harsh feudalism, but gave little resistence to the changes of the order in Croatia. The situation was peaceful, at various time, oscilated. The Hungarian rulers moved a part of the Croatian nobilty to a region that they could more easily control and that would create a "living wall" for the Hungarian King, Slavonia. Croatian propaganda is again well know, as this common realm with the Hungarians is often know in Croatian as the Croay-Hungarian kingdom. And the Croatian historians mostly reffer to the fact that the Croatian nobility called the Habsburgs to come to power (it was actually the Hungarian) The Serbs, both the natives and those that are fleeing from the Ottomans, have proven to be exellent defenders, as is well-known that they were often reworded by the Holy Roman Emperors. The proposition of the official language of Croatia and Slavonia Serbian, was short-lived and almost never released. The Croatian politicians have deceived a plan how to use the Entente's opposition to the Alliance (Austria-Hungary was its part) and the tensions between Austro-Hungary and Serbia: the Yugoslav plan; which originally only meant a transition-government as a means for an independant Croatia. After World War I, Croatia and Slavonia became a part of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. Several Croatian politicians wanted an independant Croatia, and have even got approvements by several noted groups and factions from within the state. But due to Serbia's acquisition of Vojvodina, Montenegro and several Bulgarian territories, as well as the promises made for Bosnia and Herzegovina and several other Austro-Hungarian former territories to be joined as well, Croatia would be a very small independant political entity. So the Croatian politicians agreed with the Serbian Prime Minister, Nikola Pašić, to create the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Soonly, the Vidovdan constitution was approved, which cancelled all historical provinces (but which had no real "autonomous" power) of the Kingdom (Serbia, Montenegro, Vojvodina, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia, the Slovenian Lands) The Croatian politicians strongly opposed this because the name of their "state" disappeared from the maps (even though so did, Serbia, Slovenian Lands, Montenegro...etc.) Stjepan Radić, a politician fighting for his Croatian people was assassinated by the extreme anti-nationalists. The there are the terrorist Ustaše, who fought with terrorism. When the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was created, soon after, the King was assassinated bz the Ustaše in coalition with another radical group (even thought the Yugoslavism dream finalz came to reality) in Marseilles (although this was negated by the Croatian authorites, because they didn't want to seem "terroristic"). The autonomous Croatia Banovina was created, an extremly pro-Croatian orientated part of Yugoslavia. Then, in World War II, the Croats committed the greatest crimes ever done (the Independant State of Croatia) on the History of former Yugoslavia. I don't need to mention the 1970s new separatistic Croatian attemps. Then, the war escalated with mass pro-Croatian anti-Serbist fascism and nationalism in 1991-1995, emulating with the greatest displacement of the population of Croatia in 1991-1995, when 300,000-400,000 left and many were brutally murdered. I have already noted the facts about the extreme present Croatian nationalism and fascism which goes on for the past decade.

			                                    Mir Harven mk II

Do you really think that normal persons will buy this rhethoric, elbeit "proven", nonsene (they are all "facts" according to Mir Harven's way of understanding them) HolyRomanEmperor 13:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Rms125a@hotmail.com

I've added an incident on WP:AN/I about our mutual friend User:Rms125a@hotmail.com evading his 3RR block. Demiurge 20:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Lawsuit removed from BXVI

Hi-yeah, along with Abraham Lehrer demand . Famekeeper 09:30, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Vasco da Gama

An article that you've edited before (Vasco da Gama) is nominated for Article Improvement Drive. If you want go there and vote. Thanks. Gameiro 02:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Re: Let me hear yo out

I cant wait to hear the rest of your replies (regarding my quitte long post).

Well, to avoid those early-mentioned problems, let's talk in English. About the anger-control, well, yes; just like when I was angry at you when you mentioned about those numbers of returners. My apartment was confiscated by the coalition of two extreme right-wing (demonic, but that is only my personla opinion) parties: the HDZ and HSP (of which the latter is terrifyingly extreme, as they called themselves Ustasas on several occasions. There is absolutly no quarrel that my apartment will stay in the hands of that dark, repulsive Janjevac lone-man which now occupies it; nor that a large population of my brethren will never be able to return.

Shurely you remember the 14 Croats that Tudman called personnally to return to the grandfatherland? Only two of them have a job. There are not only emigrants from Bosnia and Herzegovina, you know.

I stated that Sanja Top Show is rather very interesting, but it's previous episodes... during te Storm's celebration two-three years ago. One started with: "Good morning croatian citizens of the Republic of Croatia on this beautiful Croatian morning.

The "Oluja nad olujama" show was on HRT 1 (please re-read the sections about my village, Varivode)

You think of Gurovic. Yes, I don't agree with his tattoo; but I don't get the strong opposition of Croatian government of it. There are many citizens which have tattooed Ante Pavelic (which is, I think we both agree, far worse). By the way, recent researchings report that the Četniks killed mostly Ustasa (next to the Partisan, German, Italian, Hungarian, Albanian and Bulgarian) armed forces. But when it comes to civilians; the researches incline that they mostly killed Serb civilians, since they mostly opperated on Serbian-populated lands; and yet most Serbs supported the anti-monarchistic Partisans. About the de-Tudmanizacija process. I think that the de-Milosevicacija process has exceeded all neccessary levels in Serbia and Montenegro. In here, one of the two most powerful parties are DS (Demokratska stranka) and G17+; while in Croatia, HDZ (Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica) and HSP (Hervatska Stranka Prava) are very influential. Please, not the adverbs in the parties' names. I can draw the HDZ-SPS and HSP-SRS line freely; although the Socijalistička Partija Srbije has absolutly no real importance in the politics anymore and the Srpska Radikalna Stranka lost the attempt to seize political power in the past elections; ending even her political importance, while HDZ simply won't give up. SPS sent Slobodan Milosevic to Hague and SRS sent Vojislav Seselj; both of their leaders. You get my point. In Croatia, the nimber of victims is minimized and the Ustasas proclaimed "no so bad after all" (look www.hrvatskiustaskipokret.com it is very powerful and influential). DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN A CERATIN CROATIAN POLITITIAN SAID THAT IN JASENOVAC, "Mala Florami" was held? While one the other hand, in Serbia and Montenegro, there are two very popular and influential (serbian, not to make a confusion) groups talking that the entire "srpstvo" has turned into a machination of pure and general evil towards non-Serbs. Every fridaz I here watch BBC - Srebrenica and every thursday (litterally every) BBC - Ervenik. The people here has absolutly no knowledge of the war itself. When I told my little three-zear-old cousin that he is a Serb, the first thing that he said is: "Why are we naturally evil?"

I might add, that one man from Varivode (which I knew), Gladovic, not so long ago (most of my examples date after the war) went to Zagreb, where he was "accidently" machine gunned. He got several bullets through his neck.

I would also like to hear zour opinion on the Holy marking of Krajina's fall in cathedrals every year (in which is the head of the Croatian Catholic church involed) . You know, the "thank yoo, oh God, for helping us cut off all seven heads of the seven-headed monster" etc.

There is absolutly no need for a History of Serbs or Serbs in Croatia article. The desired info could just be copied into History of Croatia and Serbs articles.

Look at the discussions in Croatia's talk page. There, under the username Shallot you said that much less than 100.000 Serbs left Croatia in 1995.

HolyRomanEmperor 18:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Red and White Croats and Serbs

• So, the White Croats inhabited regions a little west of Zadar and are most definetly ancestor's of present Croats.
• The Red Croats inhabited the coastline regions of Zeta, Hum, Duklja and Travunija, although this is often sporadic because of De Administrando Imperio the fact that those lands almost immediatly became Serbian; and left to be that way for a long period of time, and that many Serb rulers come from those regions.
• The original White Serbs are Serbs from Lužice in Germany, and their derivates came to roughly areas of Dubrovnik and a little west. According to Constantinte's De Administrando, they inhabitted Red Croatia.
• The Red Serbs, are the long-extinct founders of Rascia (Raška)

You see, those facts are all too rough. So let us just count out the "Reds". Read http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/origins.html This rhethoric nonsense actually makes sense and has proofs. But I strongly oppose it. It is impossible to claim such facts. HolyRomanEmperor 18:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

the Serb Orthodox Cathedral Church of Saint Nicholas in Karlovac

Tell me, Joy; what do you know about this? Don't look up somewhere; just tell me what you about it. HolyRomanEmperor 18:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Pagania/Neretvia

You might be interested in reading [[12]] It contains very interesting and detailed info; almost anything you want to find out about Neretvians. The reason why I am litterraly firing from an artillery placement posts onto your talk page is that I had returned from a 2-week vacation and my free time is slowly starting to run out. Don't get me wrong, take all the time on Earth you need to read them. HolyRomanEmperor 10:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Pacta Conventa

Joy, you seem like the person to ask about this. There's a single article responding to query "Pacta Conventa" and it pertains to an event (or a couple of events) in Polish history (XVI century). I was thinking that a Pacta Conventa disambiguation page should be made. The article on the year 1102 mentions the event, but not by this name, and the History of Croatia refers to Pacta Conventa with no link, as there is no article. So, a disambiguation page and a little content copy-paste from Medieval Croatian state or just a link to it? Thanks. Damir A 03:24, 4 September 2005 (PST)

CHV

Since you posted on this stub, you might be interested in this. Str1977 22:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Croatia-related stubs

Hi there,

I found it rather amazing that Croatia-related stub category didn't exist, especially becouse Croatia-geo-stub did. So I created it and started putting articles in it. And then I wondered if what I'm doing is OK. Becouse, hey, how come nobody came to the idea of making that stub category... And, moreover, I'm not quite sure what articles should be included in the category. So I turn to you for a piece of advice. I'm pretty sure that there are suposed to be in Croatia-related stub category: White_Croats, Liberalism_in_Croatia becouse they talk about Croatia or Croats as a nation, but then again, I'm not sure about this one: ISO_3166-2:HR, becouse this is primarily article about a standard, and I'm definitely not sure about these: Azra, Film (music group) as they were popular in former Yugoslavia. So, my question is: Is excesive stubbing bad? Meaning, if I have second thoughts about putting an article in a stub category, do I put it there or do I leave it out since we don't want to have articles that are in 5 different stub categories? I did a bit of searching and found lots of articles that could fit in Croatia-related stub category, but they already are in a stub category (bio stub, political party stub, ect...), so what do I do? Leave them alone or go and add them to Croatia-related?

And, then another question. Where do I ask questions and put notices concerning Croatia? :-) Say, I created this stub category and would like to inform other Croats on Wikipedia of it's existance, so they could re-stub their articles (I find it much more effective than searching myself or announcing on stub sorting project) or just be aware that the category now exists and can be used in the future. Or I just want to ask whether anybody would like to help with something regarding Croatia, or... well, I mean, Internet is all about communicating, so where do Croats comunicate on Wikipedia (or even, do they?)?

--Dijxtra 21:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, my

I just saw one herzegbosnian .org site. I can't even believe that someone even makes that fascistic piece of nonsence. "pessimus dux Sclavorum" — najgori kralj Hrvata... appareantly someone either thinks that no one speaks Latin or his mind it so incredibly corrupted by mortal sins that they have to draw for every possible straw. I really feel sorry for the poor editors of that site... HolyRomanEmperor 13:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The "Serbian" telenovela is exactly what I find strange (it makes me think that it is pointed out to give a choice to the people whether or or not they will watch something made by Serb hands) About James Bond; as I said, you can't find almost anything "Serb" or "Montenegrin" in here. I found it on several British intellegence refference websites, there is an article of him right here in wikipedia. Jureško~Keto is the main reporter for Croatia in the United States of America. I really donćt think that the capital of Zagreb is a back~hinterland (a man was linched there not long ago) Can't wait to hear from the rest of your replies... HolyRomanEmperor 17:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I would like to hear your opinion about the sacral marking of the Storm, still... HolyRomanEmperor 20:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Yugoslav First League

Since we're the only ones editing that article (which isn't a bad thing :) ) I'll just make a section in here as your "mailbox" regarding that talk page. Please go see the Talk:Yugoslav First League. --Hurricane Angel 04:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

On the Yugoslav Cup I noticed you left the section as (FRY), are you sure about that? I would like to see the Cup and the First League articles to be identical in their structure, so we should either move the FRY cup winners to SCG or return the FRY league champions to the league article. Know what I'm saying? --Hurricane Angel 21:47, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the "wacko formatting", I was hoping someone would do that eventually... I'm not very good with tables :) --Hurricane Angel

OK

Yes, as much as bad as it may seem, the "blessing" is truthful. But, as is always, it is just an exception. I mean, you can't really generalize that during world war II the entire branch of the Catholic church in NDH collaborated?!?!!? I can't wait to hear from you about the other comments... hear from you soon. :) HolyRomanEmperor 15:17, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

That about Mir Harven was just an analogy (I have just reverted his to thoughts completly to the other side, although keeping the same intensity) I would also like you to view up my other comments (especially about the lie including my village, Mir Harven is very reluctant on answering that one) HolyRomanEmperor 11:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Eurobasket

Hi, I reverted your edit of Eurobasket 2005 page concerning the fact that Belgrade is the (only) host city. The thing is Belgrade was picked to be a host by FIBA Europe, not Serbia and Montenegro, logo and all other relevant material show that Belgrade is the host, and not the whole country. Also, when Belgrade was host in 1961 and 1975, other Yugoslav cities also hosted the competition.

Opening ceremony was held in Belgrade, all games from quarter-finals until the end of the competition are being held in Belgrade, only 3 out of 4 preliminary groups are in different towns. And of course, money matters - the organization was party financed by City of Belgrade, not Serbian or federal gov't. My analogy would be last Olympic games, where Athens was the host (and not Greece), but competitions were held in Salonica and Olympia as well.

Anyways, enjoy Eurobasket ;) Meelosh 22:47, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

New stubs

Thanks for your note on making new stubs. {{Polymer-stub}} was listed at WP:WSS/P on 5 September 2005. Physchim62 08:06, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

discussion of your changes in Masturbation

Any comments to Talk:Masturbation#some_changes_to_the_Masterbation.23Law_section?

Debian "releases"

Hi Josip. On Testing (Debian), you added that "Testing is not a release, because as soon as one snapshot of testing gets released, it loses this label and a new testing goes live." However, [13] refers to stable, testing and unstable as "releases". Obviously, this is not a traditional sense for "release" in the two last cases. Neither of us are native English speakers, so it may be harder to judge that. But supposing that keeping Debian and Wikipedia jargons compatible would be good, did you discuss the use of the word with Debian, or see a discussion about it? IMO, if Debian is at fault, it would be good to determine if the usage can be fixed so that we have clear ways to document.

---

Following your reply, it looks like you misunderstood where the word is most confusing : The top of the page reads : "Debian always has at least three releases in active maintenance: “stable”, “testing” and “unstable”." This has been the perhaps strange wording since as long as I can remember. The "Debian Releases" title acknowledges this is no error. It is also generally used for example on #debian to ask people which...distribution they use (Which release do you run?). Perhaps the general use in Debian only comes from that page. Since you seem to say that this is not an intentional use, do you think it's worth checking www.d.o bugs for a report about this, and open one if there's none?--Chealer 18:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

---

I forgot to add..."distribution" is not necessarily better than "release". From Debian's first sentence : "Debian[, organized by the Debian Project,] is a [widely used] distribution". Several other sentences in that page consider Debian *a* (and therefore 1) distribution. But if Debian is a distribution... "The “stable” distribution contains the latest officially released distribution of Debian." could translate to "The “stable” distribution contains the latest officially released distribution of a distribution." This shows that distribution would have a somewhat ambiguous meaning. We know that the general meaning of "distribution" is the one as in "Debian is a distribution".

So what do you think? Should Debian look for a new word to describe testing and unstable? "Package pools" sounds pretty technical. Branch doesn't seem to fit for a distro.--Chealer 19:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Sveta Nedelja

Zanima me izvor podatka da je Sveta Nedelja najveća općina u Hrvatskoj. Kako znaš da sam bio User:Jugoslaven? :) Luka Jačov 11:44, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Ne znam, malo sam sumnjičav jer mi je nekako logičnije da se takva općina nalazi u rjeđe naseljenim djelovima zemlje. U svakom slučaju bi to trebalo provjeriti i napisati stvarnu površinu u članku. Luka Jačov 17:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Well...

Notification, your talk-page is heavily bugged. I suggest splitting or moving old discussions to the Archive HolyRomanEmperor 17:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

'three' as a link

That's better; thank you. Tony 01:10, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Corpus Christi

Hi, Joy! As creater of Corpus Christi I was hoping you can help me out. In the opening paragraph, there is a link to Episcopal Church which is a disambiguation page. Can you offer any guidance as to where this should be directed to instead of the disambig page?? Help :-). -Roby Wayne ^{Talk • Hist} 05:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Great! I am glad to know I wasn't losing my marbles :-). I didn't think you added it, but I saw that you had originally authored the Corpus Christi article--so I thought I'd start with the beginning. Anyway, we'll just live it as a link to the disambiguation page where the reader can select which route they want to take. Thanks for your time!! >: Roby Wayne ^{Talk • Hist} 10:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

This info

I want to add this info in Karlovac. I am doing so in the English version; but in the Croatian, some user Elephantus is keeping a strong ustaša-like regime. That about Jasenovac play, I think it was the President of Sabor, or something called like that, of Croatia.

- Cathedral Church of Saint Nicholas – built between 1785–1787. Iconostasis painted by Arsa Teodorovic and wall-frescoes by Dragutin Inkiostri Medenjak. Church served as storehouse for objects looted from the Serbs and Jews (1991–1945). Church twice damaged: during direct war operations in 1991, and by explosives outside the zone of conflict on Christmas, 1992. "...We entered the remains of the church from the south, because the narthex was demolished and the choir loft had collapsed, blocking the west-side entrance. The altar apse was completely demolished, falling towards the parapet of the iconostasis. The roof had fallen into the nave; beneath the beam in the middle of the church one can see the great chandelier; a part of the ceiling still remained... The inside walls lean outward. They could fall at any time... Everything in the church was demolished..." (Report of 2 September, 1992). Church completely razed in 1993.

- Diocesan Residence built in 1882 – housing a large collection of portraits of Bishops of the Diocese of Gornji Karlovac. Diocesan Treasury: from 1985 housing many icons, books and liturgical items, removed from Monasteries and Churches of the Diocese during the Second World War by Ustashas, returned to the Serbian Orthodox Church only in 1985. Diocesan Residence broken into, pillaged and destroyed. "On 25 December, 1993, at 0410 hours, following Midnight Mass on the occasion of Roman Catholic Christmas, a very strong explosion occurred in the Bishop’s See. The Diocesan Center was destroyed."

- The Diocese of Upper Karlovac comprises the most western Serbian territories: Banija, Kordun, Lika, Krbava, Gorski Kotar, as well as northern Croatia and Istria. It was named after the town of Karlovac, where its See is located. These territories have been settled by Serbians ever since the 15th century, and more intensely in the first decades of the 16th century. The main settlements were Zumberak and Bela Krajina, and then the areas near Gomirje and Gorski Kotar. During Turkish rule in central Lika (1528–1699), the Serbians moved to cragged, rugged land of Lika from Dalmatia, while Serbians from Bosnia settled mostly in Krbava. Many of them migrated from there to Austrian-held territories, i.e., to the area of the Vojna Krajina (Military "Buffer" Zone).

- During the 16th century, the spiritual life of Orthodox Serbians of this area was guided by the metropolitans of Dabar-Bosnia. The See of this Metropolitanate was at one time in Monastery Rmanj, at the tri-juncture of Bosnia-Dalmatia-Lika. When parts of Lika, Banija and Krbava, which had been to this time under Turkish rule, were liberated at the end of the 17th century, a separate Diocese of Karlovac-Zrinopolje was established (1695). The first Bishop of the Diocese was a refugee from Bosnia, Metropolitan of Dabar-Bosnia Atanasije Ljubojevic (1696–1712).

- In 1713, the Diocese of Karlovac-Zrinopolje was divided into two: the Diocese of Karlovac-Senj-Coastlands and the Diocese of Kostajnica-Zrinopolje. Danilo Ljubotina, Bishop of the former, founded his Episcopal Residence in Plaski. During the 18th century, the areas under Austrian rule were administered by the Bishops of Marca.

- Roman Catholic proselytism and forced conversion to the Uniate Church (recognizing the authority of the Roman Pontiff) were a constant danger for Orthodox Serbians within the borders of the Diocese of Karlovac. Proof of that religious aggressiveness is the fate of the Serbian people in Zumberak, forcibly subjected to the Uniate Church in the 17th and 18th centuries. In that disparate struggle between the Roman Catholic Church, supported by the Austrian Court and Army, the loss of Zumberak was inevitable. Moreover, the military authorities, under the advice of the Roman Catholic clergy, expelled Orthodox priests, denying the Orthodox Bishop access to these regions. In order to preserve the Serbians in the faith of their fathers and the spirit of Saint Sava, Bishop Pavle Nenadovic (1744–1749), later Metropolitan of Karlovci, founded a "Central School" in Plaski for the educating of young seminarians. Also through the efforts of this eminent Bishop a similar school was established in Zaluznice, near Vrhovina. Bishop Danilo Jaksic (1751–1771), a Hierarch of great pastoral devoutness and holy life, also worked hard for the enlightenment of Serbian youth. Thanks to his zeal, a school in Metka was opened.

- In the historic line of the Bishops of Karlovac the following are mentioned: Atanasije Ljubojevic (1688–1712), Danilo Ljubotina (1713–1739), Pavle Nenadovic (1744–1749), Danilo Jaksic (1751–1771), Josif Stojanovic (1771–1774), Petar Petrovic (17714–1784), Jovan Jovanovic (1784–1786), Genadije Dimovic (1786–1796), Stefan Avakumovic (1798–1801), Petar Petrovic Vidak (1801–1806), Mojsije Miokovic (1807–1823), Lukijan Musicki (1828–1837), Evgenije Jovanovic (1839–1854), Sergije Kacanski (1858–1859), Petar Jovanovic (1859–1864), Lukijan Nikolajevic (1865–1872), Teofan Zivkovic (1874–1890), Mihailo Grujic (1891–1914), Ilarion Zeremski (1920–1931), Maksimilijan Hajdin (1932–1936), Sava Trlajic (1938–1941), Nikanor Ilicic (1947–1951) and Simeon Zlokovic (1951–1990). The present Bishop of Upper Karlovac is Nikanor (Bogunovic).

- In World War II, Bishop Sava Trlajic of Upper Karlovac was martyred. The Bishop was arrested on 13 June, 1941, together with thirteen other prominent Serbians, among whom there were also three Serbian priests. They were confined in a barn belonging to an Ustasha camp-officer Tomljenovic, where they were tortured in various ways. When they were being beaten, the church hymn "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ…" (Gal 3:27a) was played on a record-player. From there they were taken by freight-train to Gospic on 20 June. Bishop Sava was allowed to say good-bye to his 83-year old mother, but with his hands tied and legs fettered. In mid-August of 1941, Bishop Sava Trlajic was taken to Mount Velebit, where he was, with numerous other Serbians, thrown into the pit "Jadovno".

- During World War II, the Diocese of Upper Karlovac endured an unprecedented spiritual genocide: 116 Serbian churches were destroyed, and 39 heavily damaged; two chapels were destroyed, along with 84 parish homes and other church buildings (53 being dynamited and 31 set afire). Church libraries and archives suffered the same fate: 154 archives were destroyed, 13 plundered. Out of 171 church and monastery libraries, 154 were destroyed while 17 were pillaged.

- This devastation of Serbian holy sites on the territory of the Diocese of Upper Karlovac continued even after the war. The places of worship which remained after the war, in general damaged and demolished, were totally destroyed on the strict order of "the People’s authority". Thus, the "People’s Committee of the Municipality of Udbina" on 22 March, 1960, addressed an official act to the Serbian Orthodox Church, i.e., the Diocese of Upper Karlovac, stating among other things: "Our People’s Committee of the Municipality, at its meeting of 14 July 1957, and on the basis of legal sanctions, has passed a decision concerning the destruction of what is left of the walls of buildings set afire during the war or demolished by other means… In reference to this, and as on the territory of this Municipality there are still a number of such walls of burnt down Orthodox churches (Josan, Mekinjar, Svrackovo Selo, Mutilic, et. al.), we have addressed ourselves personally to Your Diocese in Karlovac, with the demand that these walls be finally, after 15 years since the end of the Second World War, be removed, i.e., torn down. In the event that you do not undertake measures, this People’s Committee will be forced to do so on its own, and to demolish those walls at the expense of the above-addressee." This decision was signed by Bogdan Korac.

- The war of 1991–1995 added to this distress, thus continuing and confirming the continuity of the spiritual genocide on Serbian ecclesiastial monuments within the boundaries of the Diocese of Upper Karlovac. In the war from 1991 until 1993, five Serbian churches were demolished, and 18 damaged on the territory of this Diocese. Three parish homes were dynamited and seven damaged. Five cemeteries were destroyed. The Cathedral Church of Saint Nicholas in Karlovac, built during the period of 1785 to 1787, was dynamited by the Ustashas on Serbian Orthodox Christmas in 1992. The church of Saint Spyridon in Petrinja, dating from 1787, was destroyed by the Ustasha at the beginning of World War II; the new church was finished only in 1976. In the present war, this church was several times dynamited by Croatian nationalists, and finally on 12 August, 1991, razed to the ground. The Bishop’s Residence in Karlovac was shelled, plundered and finally destroyed. Thus on Saturday, 25 December, 1993, on Roman Catholic Christmas at 4:18 a.m., the See of the Diocese of Upper Karlovac was blown up by explosives. Within the walls of the Residence the Diocesan Museum Treasury, Archives and Library was located.

- Following the Croatian aggression on the Republic of Serbian Krajina, in August of 1995, the Serbian population of this ancient Diocese was driven out (many being killed), and their churches desecrated, damaged or destroyed. The 18th-century wooden church in Buzeta, near Glina, a unique example of church architecture, was burnt totally to the ground. On the territory of this Diocese, 11 churches were destroyed, while 45 were damaged during the war period 1991–1995. Eight parish homes and other churches buildings were also destroyed, while 14 suffered serious damage. Unfortunately, now that the Serbs have been expelled from this region, many churches and other buildings remain abandoned and exposed to the ravages of decay.

Proscriptions required

This is impossible! Everywhere I find vandalism and NPOV! In the Serbian wikipedia I had almost to declare a martial law under my undisputed rule, and start proscripting the entire site (like Cornelius Sulla, although I am not proud of it :)! Someone had even called Skenderbeg = Đorđe Kastriotić Skender Beg! I think that same violations are overflowing both English and Croatian wikipedias, too! Don't you agree? P. S. Can we make that History of Dalmatia article a little less pro-Croatian? HolyRomanEmperor 15:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Tagging the Daniel Coburn article with {crime-bio-stub}?

I noticed that you tagged Daniel Coburn with {crime-bio-stub}. I've written to the guy who created this stub, because I think it is so overly broad as to make it effectively worthless. They have been tagging Guantanamo detainees with this tag, even though none of them have been charged with any crime, in a real court of law.

Concerning your use of this tag -- you tagged Daniel Coburn, who was never charged with any crime -- but you didn't tag the Ilario Pantano, the guy he testified against, who had been charged with murder. Was this just an oversight? -- Geo Swan 10:34, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. The Pantano article is no longer a stub. Thanks. -- Geo Swan 21:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Hej

Za Croatia što si mi izbrisao: prim. => Općina Dalj\Опћина Даљ i u drugim mjestima (ćirilica u hrvatskom jeziku?) i vidi State mottos wikipedia članak koji kaže "Bog i Hrvati" kao hrvatski oficijalni moto. Možeš li srijedit Eparhiju Karlovačku za mene? Nemam više YUBC :( Puno hvala unaprijed. Sačekat ću malo, pa ću onda vratit moje promijene ako ti nećeš stići dotad. HolyRomanEmperor 17:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Pa, na hrvatskom je tako... :) No, šalu na stranu, ispitujem malo situaciju o Ruđeru Josipu Boškoviću i Ivi/Ivanu Andriću, i pravo da ti kažem, više ne znam ko je ko. Išao sam kod jednog Beogradskog univerzitetskog profesora koji otvoreno tvrdi da je Katarina Pejić bila Srpkinja (a to nije onako kao što su nas učili :) Dok s druge strane, dokopao sam (ugh, ovog puta validne izvore) da je Nikola Bošković bio Srbin. Malo me smara :( ali ako te interesuje iskucaću... A što se tiče Dalja, pretpostavljam da ono nisi vidio na televiziji prije... mjesec il' tako nešto; prikazana je Osnovna škola. U njoj predaju tri Srbina. Školski sabor je sazvan kako bi diskutirali o peticiji za otpuštanje tih profesora (jer, kako predsjednica tvrdi, ne žele da im hrvatska djeca poprime srpski akcenat :P ) Na snimci se vidjela jedna tabla (mislim da je ispred škole, ali ne smijem lupati gluposti) na kojoj piše Dalj/Даљ. A ti daj što možeš o onoj dvojici. Vjerovat ću ti kao i uvijek :) HolyRomanEmperor 18:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Popravio sam članak o Duklji, i stavio link za Ancient Doclea. Neko je pobrkao Bar sa Podgoricom (lokacija je ušće Zete i Morače). Stric iz Podgorice mi je e-mailovao još nekoliko linkova. (Da li se sijećaš ono davno kada smo diskutirali o asimiliranju? Imam primjer. Moj ujak je oženjen Hrvaticom, a djeca su im katolici — što misliš koje će b... koje su nacionalnosti? Vjerojatno će ujak biti zaboravljen za koje desetljeće, i porodica će biti stopostotna hrvatska, zar ne? plus to, moj ujak nema sinova; kapiraš što 'oću da ti kažem? asimilacija nije dug proces, već je ustvari trenutna...) HolyRomanEmperor 18:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ajd, ovde cu, mrzi me da to ide na sve strane... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

1. Otac/deda Rudjera Boskovica je bio srpski velikas. Ipak, Rudjer je bio Dubrovcanin. (Informacija od profesorke dubrovacke knjizevnosti sa Univerziteta u Beogradu, koja nije nacionalista.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
2. Ivo Andric se sam deklarisao kao Srbin (informacija koju imam, izmedju ostalih, i od Mira Harvena). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Nisam uopće imao pojma o toj drugoj strani priče. Zašto idioti uopće nisu i to stavili u prilog??? Što se mene tiče, ako ima očevidaca i dokaza, takvi ljudi bi trebali ići na sud. Što se tiče jezika. U Srbiji i Crnoj Gori stoji da su pored oficijalnog srpskog jezika, da se regionalno koriste i: albanski, madžarski, hrvatski, rumunski, rusinski i slovački; a u manjim mjestima i bugarski, njemački i poljski (no, samo Bugarski je lokaliziran i u statutu), kao i generalno da je u upotrebi i romski (ciganski). No, Hrvatska je za razliku od ove multi-etničke unije nacionalna država (od nedavno) pa ti to vjerojatno nećeš razumjeti.

Što se tiče Paganije, trebalo bi dodati link do one anarheologije; i mislim da se slažeš da bi isto trebalo da ima link do ... hm... bilo čega srpskog. Knez/Župan Petar Gojniković je vladao Paganijom kao jednom od više zemalja kojima je vladao (kao Karlo V nad Španijom i Njemačkim carstvom), dok je Knez Časlav Klonimirović Vlastimirović bio samo u dobrim odnosima sa Neretljanskom zemljom (imao je velikog utjecaja, otprilike kao Sovjetski Savez u Istočnoj Njemačkoj) I kao što vjerojatno već znaš, Časlav se sreo sa nekim lokalnim velikašima u Paganiji. Najvjerojatnije nije bila pod direktnom Časlavljevom vlasti. Znam da sam ti obećao slike, malo se odužilo, ali ćeš ih dobit uskoro. Slike su iz oficijalnog Historijskog Atlasa Jugoslavije, pa mogu da jamčim da je Petar Gojniković vladao Paganijom. Tek kasnije je Paganija pala pod isključivi hrvatski utjecaj, nakon što su njihove udružene mornarice pobjedile kod Makarske... (joj, koga ono biješe?) Možeš li ga pomenuti u članku o Paganiji?

U čemu je sukob oko Duklje? Grad je dobio ime po Doclei, gradu kod Podgorice. Tu nema sukoba, zar ne? A Bar nije bio centar Dukljanske vlasti svo vrijeme (valjda smo razjasnili, da je famozni pop vjerojatno pogriješio u mnogim stvarima) Kao prvo Bar uopće nije postao Dukljanski do druge polovine X vijeka, kada se centralistička dukljanska vlast prenosi iz Risana u Kotor. Baš u to vrijeme, jedini period kada je Dubrovnik bio srpski (!disputed subject), bio je Dukljanski centar. No, grad Duklja (Podgorica) je stara (prije velike Duklje) prijestolnica države Duklje. Bar, Ulcinj, Kotor i Dubrovnik su bili pripojeni u tom trenu. Bar i Skadar su bili izuzetno važni, ali nakon XI vijeka, Bar postaje glavni. No, nakon XII vijeka, grad Ras ujedinjene Srbije postaje glavni, i Bar gubi svaki politički značaj (zadržava religiozni). Postoje informacije da su čak i Trebinje bile važan Dukljanski centar (no, ako ideš kao Hrvatska po mijestu vladanja (Sisak, Knin, Biograd i drugi) onda moraš reći da je Ston najvažniji Dukljanski grad, jer je to bio Mihailov kraljevski stožer). Kada smo već kod toga, na Pelješcu (ovo sam već pomenuo) i dan-danas postoji mala srspka crkva (populacija). Oni se održavaju stare srpske tradicije i ponose se da "produžuju tradiciju Svetoga Mihaila". A i, mislim da znaš; Nemanjići su Dukljani (i probitno katolici) Stefan Nemanja je rekao da je uspio "obnoviti skoro cijelu djedovinu", jer nikada nije osvojio Dubrovnik (pozivao se na granice Petra Gojnikovića). Od njega, pa do cara Uroša V nejakog, Stefan postaje standardna titula za srpske vladare (jer je Nemanja to uzeo po Stefanu Vojislavu).

Osim toga, ne može se otvoreno reći da je nešto bilo srpsko tek do perioda za vrijeme i kasnije Nemanjića (i tada se država zvala Raška, a za vrijeme feudalne anarhije se ceo Balkan geografski zvao "Servia" - Srbija) Oficijalno ime Srbija je tek usvojeno krajem XVII-vijeka. Onaj ko kaže za Rašku da je Srbija, griješi puno. Duklja, Travunija, Zahumlje i Bosna su sve više "Srbije" od Raške, jer su vođe srpskih konfederacija dolazile prevashodno iz Duklje i Raške. Nemanjići i Vojislavljevići su Dukljani, no, deklarišu cijeli teritorij Raške i "Crvene Hrvatske" svojom djedovinom, i naglašuju, u slučaju Nemanjića, da je prijelaz na Pravoslavlje jedini način očuvanja svoje djedovine, jer je bila većinski pravoslavna, i primorje djelomično katoličko. Duklja je, za razliku od ostalih "Crvenih hrvatskih zemalja" za vrijeme podele 1054. bila pola pravoslavna i pola katolička, no pravoslavlje je skoro odmah zavladalo, a za vrijeme Stefana Nemanje postalo maltene 100%. Katolici su ostali kao većina u Dubrovniku. Kasnije, kako se Dubrovnik širio, širio se i katolicizam. Zbog fanatičke vjere Dubrovačkih vladara, samo je sićušna crkva na Pelješcu opstala do dan-danas. Stefan Vojislav se deklarisao da je podržavao "Orientalnu Shizmu". Konstantinopolj (Ortodoksna Šizma) i Rim (sjetiću se, zaborih kako se zvaše) su od 800. godine vodili hladan rat. Orijentalci Shisme su postali Pravoslavci, a ovi drugi postali Katolici. Nitko ne smije i ne može oduzeti pravo Hrvatskom narodu da svojeta Neretvane, no, za ove druge Slovenske se ne može isto reći. Skoro uvijek su bile vladane srpskim vladarima. Bile su sastavni dio Srbije skoro dugo koliko i Bosne (no, jedino ako želiš računati Bosnu i Otomansku okupaciju - autonomna Bosna).

Plus to, ako staviš na izbor: jedan katolički pop čiji identitet nije poznat, čije tvrdnje iznose činjenice koji očigledno ne mogu biti razmatrane kao historijske, i koji je po nekim tvrdnjama, Hrvat po nacionalnosti (dakle Hrvatski izvor, no nije dokazano jer nije sigurno da li je on uopće postojao na prvom mijestu); dok je na drugoj strani svijetski poznat Imperator Orienta, Romeja i Romejskog carstva, koji je poynat po mnogo više dijela nego taj pop (sa samo malo historijskih nesuglasica) i čiji su identitet, doba vladavine i života, kao i gomilu drugih stvari - potpuno poznati. Kada bi neko odabirao ismeđu ove dvojice, ja mislim da bi skoro svi odabrali Bizantskog cara. HolyRomanEmperor 18:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Još jedna stvar. Kralj Mihailo je 1077. krunisan kao Rex Serviae. Jedini razlog zašto je to "sporadic" je zato što hrvatski nacionalisti odbujaju da prihvate dio svojet teritorije kao srpski, a još i centralni srpski (Ston). Takvo svojatanje je prisutno svugde, kao na primjer sa Ruđerom Boškovićem... Ivom Andrićem (ovaj drugi je obe nacionalnosti, ali hrvatski nacionalisti nahrvatskoj wikipedi-i odbijaju hrvatsko podrijetlo). HolyRomanEmperor 18:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Nego, pitah te za Ivu/Ivana Andrića i Ruđera Josipa Boškovića ako nisi primjetio...

BTW, moja najbolja prijateljica Monika je s majčine strane miješana Srbo-Hrvatica (no, majka joj je katolkinja), a otac joj je Stjepan, potomak nekog (ne znam koji :( ) poznatog Vojvođanskog Bunjevca (možda ćeš naći zanimljivo da se on izjašnjavo u popisu kao Hrvat, a ne Bunjevac, a uopće ne voli Hrvate, govori kako su samo Bunjevci održali svoju tradiciju i čast :) HolyRomanEmperor 20:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

Please stop vandalizing articles. Wikipedia:NPOV is a policy that will be enforced. Also, there are no "private" pages at Wikipedia. By editing or creating a page, you specifically agree that the text may be edited by other users.

protect Bosniaks

Joy would you please, at least temporarily, protect the Bosniaks page? The edit war (& vandalism) on first paragraph does not seem to be stopped by itself. Duja 14:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd better not trip over myself

Hrvatska: I removed the text I'd added, until I hear back. --VKokielov 20:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you...

... for this. Now I have to find where I did what I did before, and do what you did to them :-) —Phil | Talk 07:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Croatian propaganda by "Joy"

Joy stop spreading your low-character propaganda on the article "bosnian church"´. You know very well that the bosnian church wasn't christian at all in any way, it's just a way of expression to call it "church". The bosnian "church" WAS NEVER accepted by rome as a christian church, the bosnian church was bogomil and disappeared since all the bosniak bogomils converted to islam. Your propaganda material is really lame.

Good

Odlicno, mogu li te onda zamoliti da stavis Ivu i Ruđera međ Srbe na hrvatskoj enciklopediji? Latin? Obožavam tog tipa. Prekinuli sa da ga prijenose zbog Haških suđenja, na žalost. :( HolyRomanEmperor

no YUBC conn. must be short. been in Greece. inf (in 1066) = Mihailo Vojislavljević of Serbia and Bosnia - Orthodox. Central Bosnia and western Serbia - Orthodox. Ragusian Byzantine province (ruled by Arsenios Kalathetos, Orthodox Greek) - Orthodox with the exception of the city itself. Hum and mid-western Bosnia - Orthodox. Zeta (ruled by Radoslav Vojislavljević, Orthodox) - majorly Greek Orthodoxs. Croatia (ruled by Trpimirovici, Frangepans and Subici) all Catholic except western Bosnia (ruled by Catholic Subici) which is Orthodox. HolyRomanEmperor 10:44, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

During the reign of Stefan Nemanja (Orthodox) (1187. record) . Serbia and eastern half of the Seaside are Orthodox. Bosnia, central being Catholic, and southern being Orthodox (ruled by Kulin, Catholic) Croatia entirely Catholic with the exception of its hold of western Bosnia (Orthodox), which is ruled by Kosače. Western Seaside, at places Catholic, at places Orthodox, but more Catholic than Orthodox. HolyRomanEmperor 10:44, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

During the reign of Stefan Dušan (1337. record) the Serbian Empire is Orthodox, while its most southern provinces are inhabitted by Greeks (Orthodox too) and its eastern-to-southeastern by Orthodox Bulgars (ruled by a Shishman, Bulgarian Orthodox). Bosnia ruled by Stjepan Kotromanić (Orthodox), Vladislav Kotromanić (Orthodox) and Nikola and Katarina Kotromanić (both Orthodox). While at that time, the majority of central, southern and western (entire) Bosnia was of mixed religeons, with Catholicism being the largest (in all three parts). The Banata of Croatia was entirelz Catholic (with several local Hungarian Catholic majorities). HolyRomanEmperor 10:44, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Bosnian church - Bosniak bogomils

NO "joy" I don't want to understand anything you are saying since it all sounds so damn WRONG, the catholic curch is not a true source, since we all know that the catholic curch used to write falsehood about other religions in order to decline the other religion's identity. The bosnian church dissapeared as the turks came, IT DISAPPEARED SIMPLY because the bosniaks converted to Islam from their previous religion at that time BOGOMIL, but you do maybe believe that bosniaks where christians before converting !! BUT They never were and you know this, the bosniaks don't have anything christian in their history...Kulin Ban himself was bosniak and declared himself as bogomil in his writings...when will you realize that your lives are a big LIE.

how do you manage that?  ;)

You're consistent, and at the same time one day you're a Croatian terrorist and the next, Serbian.

Wheeeew.

Where is their gratitude? Zahvalnost. Blagodarnost. Whatever we call it. --VKokielov 02:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, my talk page is slowly talking its turn into a nationalist propaganda location :(. Anyway, I am studying those infos up-mentioned, because I have doubts that Stjepan Kotromanić was Orthodox, I will inform thee in a day or two. HolyRomanEmperor 10:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

King Mihailo of Doclea

I think you will find this rather interesting:

HolyRomanEmperor 16:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Jedan ti novi Hrvat (A Croat for you)

Robert Luketic Robert Luketić

I think you should leave the redirect on the diacritic variant - but it's, of course, up to you. --VKokielov 00:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Finally

I have finally got the pictures that I promised you. I will upload them soon. I have also noticed that Croatian language is back official in the Republic of Dubrovnik. P. S. Where/how've you been these past days? HolyRomanEmperor 17:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Clarifications

De Administrando Imperio does not mention Travunia and Zachlumia as a part of Serbia. It mentions Travunia and Pagania as a part of the Principality of Prince Časlav Klonimirović Vlastimirović. HolyRomanEmperor 20:18, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Tvrtko se smatrao naslednikom Nemanjića i vjerovatno je htio da se loza nastavi sa njim. To je razlog zašto sam ga stavio tamo. HolyRomanEmperor 20:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Novakovich

I added your name-sake Josip Novakovich. I don't think his name warrants a redirect at all.

I'm sorry they spell their names wrong.  ;) --VKokielov 22:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't find out anything new :) You must have misunderstood me. It seems that you think that my life's goal is to distance away Dubrovnik from Croatia. I don't. I only want the Serbian influence to be remembered as well. The dialect spoken in Dubrovnik is Serbian, and (even Ljudevit Gaj claims that) the reformed Croatian was based on the Serbian language. HolyRomanEmperor 12:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Duklja and other

Sources in here (hundreds of years old) claim that his name at the crowning was Stefan Tvrtko I Nemanjić. He didn't want to continue the Nemanjići dinasty. He did :) HolyRomanEmperor 12:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Clarifications: DAI claims that Prince Časlav ruled over Travunia and Pagania, not Travunia and Zachlumia. HolyRomanEmperor 12:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Will you clarify the Duklja and similiar articles (Travunia and Pagania, not Travunia and Zachlumia) Are there 430,000 Croatian Germans in Germany? HolyRomanEmperor 20:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Will you clarify the Duklja and similiar articles (Travunia and Pagania, not Travunia and Zachlumia) P. S. Are there 430,000 Croatian Germans in Germany? HolyRomanEmperor 20:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I am out of YUBC (I wonder myself how can I even post here). Could you do it? HolyRomanEmperor 19:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The reason why I posted that picture is that according to www.njegos.org, it depicts Mihailo receiving the Pope's insignia. P. S. Did you see the info that I posted to you that I had collected from Greece (regarding religeon of lands and rulers)? HolyRomanEmperor 20:20, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I can't understand your opposal to Stefan I Tvrtko Kotromanić being regarded as a Nemanjić... HolyRomanEmperor 20:24, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Your Highness, Grand Turk, o Supreme Chancellor of the World,

Look at the bottom of Ashkelon: "The name shallot derives from the city's name." :D --VKokielov 01:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

That's Mark Twain's line from "The Facts in the Case of the Great Beef Contract."

I only thought that you would be interested :( Besides, I found out the international name for Zahumlje - Zachlumia. About Mihailo: [14] (the lower is the description of the painting) although, I fail to see anything on the pitcure :S HolyRomanEmperor 12:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The reason is the splitting of the two churches. The line went cross present-day Albania, crossing Kosovo, cutting a third of central Serbia and seperating Vojvodina (continuing then across Wallachia) I think that it is obvious. The splitting was made ridiculously. Luckly, you can't change the rulling family's religeon :) (or can, like with Stefan Nemanja) HolyRomanEmperor 12:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

About Vlastimir, we know. He is descendant from the dinasty that ruled excplicitly Rascia, but his realm also included Bosnia, which, with Croatian interregnums, was together with Rascia the default Vlastimirović domain. HolyRomanEmperor 12:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

vlastimir is the descendant from the traditional rulers of Rascia, we know that he included Bosnia. Rascia with Bosnia (which was also at various times Croatian-controlled) where the default Vlastimirović domain. HolyRomanEmperor 13:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

His heirs, Stefan (870-874) and Petar (892-917), expanded their rule over Travunia and Pagania, whcih then until the dinasty's extinction became it's traditional domain (a part of Serbia). HolyRomanEmperor 13:05, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Mutimir's reign (who actually never ruled, between Vlastimir and Stefan) signified total anarchy, failure. During his reign Trpimir captured Bosnia, while other lands were split by Byzantines and Bulgarians... (you get the picture) HolyRomanEmperor 13:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Petar Gojniković Vlastimirović (892-917) was the first Confederate Serb ruler (he founded the title Grand Prince of All of Rascias) He ruled Rascia, while all four states of the Seaside were subjected to him (he subjected Doclea and Zachlumia, while also giving special vassalage statuses to Travunia and Pagania). HolyRomanEmperor 13:13, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

As the Bosnian chieftains saw this as a weakness, they invited Tomislav to annex them. Tomislav was crowned as King and had a central rule, which satisfied the Bosnians. To satisfy the Bosnian nobility and gentry, Tomislav also gave Bosnia autonomy. Vlastimirovići lost Bosnia. HolyRomanEmperor 13:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The next ruler was the third (after Stefan and Petar) that was Christian, Grand Prince Pavle Branović Vlastimirović of All of Rascias (917 - 910). He ruled the same as his predecessor, although brought a little more centralisation. HolyRomanEmperor 13:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The next was the last Rascian-Serb ruler. Grand Prince Časlav Klonimirović Vlastimirović (927-950) He was the strongest. After Tomislav, the Croatian kingdom became increasingly weaker, so the chieftains of Bosnia seperated and returned to Časlav (Rascia). Časlav nominally ruled Travunia and Pagania, too, since it is known that he resided in those states. He used his Grand princely title to control Doclea and Zachlumia too. Although, the places over which he exerted control were Doclea and Travunia. HolyRomanEmperor 14:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Dubrovnik, Kotor, Bar and Ulcinj were Byzantine enclaves that had to pay taxes to the Serb confederate rulers (before that to the local areal rulers) and they governed the cities in Byzantine Emperor's name. Much like Tomislav with Trogir, Split, Zadar and the Dalmatian Islands (Krk, Cres, Rab.... etc.), only king Petar Krešimir IV fullz incorporated those lands into the Croatian kingdom. HolyRomanEmperor 14:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Dubrovnik, Kotor, Bar and Ulcinj were Byzantine enclaves that had to pay taxes to the Serb confederate rulers (before that to the local areal rulers) and they governed the cities in Byzantine Emperor's name. Much like Tomislav with Trogir, Split, Zadar and the Dalmatian Islands (Krk, Cres, Rab.... etc.), which were later king by Petar Krešimir IV fully incorporated those lands into the Croatian kingdom. HolyRomanEmperor 14:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

While we are there, you should look at Medieval Croatian state, it says Petar Krešimir IV ruled the Seaside: Pagania, Zachlumia, Travunia and Doclea(!) Delete that, please. HolyRomanEmperor 14:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

You asked for a reference about Tvrtko: [15] HolyRomanEmperor 17:58, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I hope this gives you some clue on the House of Vojislavljevići. HolyRomanEmperor 13:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

( I just saw Croatia, and user:Elephantus had returned the article to status quo like it was when I first arrived to this encyclopedia (remember the Dubrovnik part etc.?) HolyRomanEmperor 22:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Something is rather strange. I discovered that Stephan Kotromanić (and his next-in-line, also Stefan) were (Serbian) Orthodox Christians. What's more, I now discovered that Tvrtko I is also... Sites like that herzeg-bosnian have silently changed to exclude parts claiming his Catholicism, and decided only to incline his possibility of being Orthodox in one tiny part :S (I am confused...) HolyRomanEmperor 22:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Vlastimirović, not Vojislavljević, sorry. HolyRomanEmperor 21:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You should know a thing: in Demographics, it says that Serbia has 140,000 refugees from Croatia and Bosnia. It doesn't. That is from Croatia number only, and it variates from 140,000 up to 150,000. HolyRomanEmperor 17:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska

Joy. If you have the ability could you please lock the article Republika Srpska. You would not believe the level of nonsense being talked about on discussion page. Thanks --Dado 22:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Pozdrav Joy, vidim da te je Dado kontaktirao. Jednostavno ja pokušavam od članka Republika Srpska napravim jedan neutralan članak koji neće biti uvredljiv za bilo koji od 3 naroda koji žive u Republici Srpskoj. Nisam imao ranije vremena time da se bavim, ali imam sada. Radi se o tome da sam istoriju Republike Srpske prebacio u nov članak - History of Republika Srpska. Pošto je najviše sukoba oko editovanja do sada bilo upravo oko istorijske sekcije, ideja je bila da ove sukobe bar preselim u taj nov članak i time sprečim ove stalne revert-wars oko članka Republika Srpska. Međutim, čini se da je to izazvalo nove revert-wars, jer mi se čini da gospoda Dado i Emir nisu zainteresovani za ozbiljnu diskusiju već za širenje propagande, koja ima za cilj stvaranje unitarne države BIH. Na strani za razgovor kod Republike Srpske sam to lepo objasnio. Ja nisam neki velikosrpski nacionalista koji želi nekavu veliku Srbiju, samo me boli ova nepravda prema srpskom narodu u Republici Srpskoj. Smeta mi to da se bošnjački nacionalizam toleriše i čak odobrava ovde. Moj cilj kod ovog članka je da članak bude zaista neutralan i da ne bude uvredljiv za bilo koga. Isto tako da se u članku ne nalaze navodi koji podržavaju ekstremističke ideje, bilo ideju velike Srbije, bilo ideju unitarne Bosne. Prema ustavu, Bosna je država 3 naroda i dva entiteta, i jasno je da ovakva vrsta propagande protiv bilo kog od ovih naroda ili entiteta nije prihvatljiva prema politici Vikipedije. PANONIAN 01:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Joy, evo samo da ti pokažem da Dado ili njegovi drugovi brišu moje postove sa strane za razgovor. To je očit primer vandalizma:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Republika_Srpska&action=history

PANONIAN 10:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Croatia-related_topics_notice_board

Hi there,

You proposed creating of WikiProject Croatia to me, but I thought I would a overkill... now I found out about this RWNBs and it seems to me that Croatia-related_topics_notice_board would be acceptable solution, since I see there are some active Croatian wikipedians, and I think we might profit from coordination which would be possible with Croatia-reated RWNB... What do you think? --Dijxtra 22:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Rotacija

Kako zarotirat sliku? Luka Jačov 18:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

South Slavic languages category

Number of articles on South Slavic languages is now pretty high and I'd like to add Category:South Slavic languages as subcategory to Category:Slavic languages, possibly with subcategories on individual languages. The catch is, I don't know how :-) -- could you point me to relevant Wiki links or start the job yourself and let me finish it? Duja 08:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I see Joy's bussy, so I'll give you a hint. Say you wan't to transfer Croatian language from [[Category:Slavic languages]] to [[Category:South Slavic languages]]. You edit the article, find the line that says "[[Category:Slavic languages]]" (it's probably somewhere at the end) and, change it to "[[Category:South Slavic languages]]". Than you save the article. And that's it. (I did it now, so you don't have to move Croatian language, you move all of the others ;-) ) Now, the problem is this category doesn't exist. So, I'll create the Categories you need for you, so you can fill them out for practice. There, I created 3 new categories for you: Category:East Slavic languages, Category:West Slavic languages, Category:South Slavic languages. Now you move the languages to their categories :-) --Dijxtra 14:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I already figured out the first part, although I didn't know (and still don't :-( ) how to create the category. I'll probably do it on Monday (thank God it's Friday (TM)). Should I replace [[Category:Slavic languages]] or merely add, since it's a subcategory already?

Replace. If x is subcategory of y, and if you add article to x, you remove y. --Dijxtra 15:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Pomoc neupucenom :)

E, da te zamolim (mozda znas neku precicu u odnosu na citanje obimne dokumentacije :) ) kako (i da li) traziti zastitu strane ako ona ne treba da bude menjana? U pitanju je sors emaila koji stoji u mom imenskom prostoru ([16]), a koji predstavlja (delimicnu) dozvolu za objavljivanje sadrzaja tri sajta koja su posvecena albanskoj kulturi. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello. Have you got free time for our old talk? HolyRomanEmperor 17:03, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello. Have you got free time for our old talk? HolyRomanEmperor 17:06, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Bleh

The Balkans is an ugly place...Woe be me for ever sticking my head in!  ;)

Well. I'm hard pressed to sort the wolves from the sheep sometimes, that's all. Especially when the wolf happens to have some sheep in him. --VKokielov 02:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Bosnians

Care to take a look at Bosnians page and try to settle things down a bit? I tried to make sense of it but ultimatively I gave up from the nationalists' revert wars. (I understand that I'm being hypocritic for asking you to do something that I'm reluctant to touch :-D ). Duja 13:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, and hello!

1) One of my best friends is from Split. 2) Thanks for contributing to at least one of my initiated entries. 3) "Shallot" Tennyson reference? --Benn M. 10:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

So what does shallot mean?--Benn M. 01:54, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

History of Republika Srpska

Joy

Could you please take a look at the History of Republika Srpska article. Other administrators have tried to fix the situation, but I feel that its imperative that someone who truly understands the situation, like you, oversees it. Asim Led 19:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Liburnia

Hi Joy, I jave a question on Talk:Liburnia you might be able to answer. Peace, Alexander 007 23:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Mapa kneževina

Zašto sam zamenio mapu? Zato što na drugoj mapi ima grešaka i lakše mi je bilo da jednostavno zamenim mape, nego da sređujem ovu drugu u fotošopu (a ne vidim šta fali onoj prvoj). Dakle, koje su greške na drugoj: rečni tokovi su presečeni, a i brisanje linija nije baš najbolje urađeno. Čak mislim i da samo brisanje linija nije baš najbolje rešenje. Video sam tvoja dva argumenta za to: 1. da se ne znaju tačne granice iz tog vremena, pa prema tome ne treba ni linije da budu tu, i 2. da su granice Zahumlja bile drugačije. Što se prvog argumenta tiče, sasvim je uobičajeno na istorijskim mapama da se crtaju linije tamo gde se ne znaju tačne granice, jer linija u tom slučaju predstavlja približnu granicu, a ne potpuno tačnu. Izuzetak od ovog je recimo euratlas (primer: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm), ali to je loš način prezentacije, jer prostor između tih država sigurno nije bio prazan. Bolje je imati liniju koja pokazuje približnu (makar i delimično netačnu granicu), nego imati fiktivni prazan prostor (koji u stvari nije bio prazan). Ja imam nekoliko istorijskih mapa koje prikazuju ove 4 kneževine, i na svakoj postoji linija između njih. Prema DAI, one su se naslanjale jedna na drugu, i mislim da zato ne treba da crtamo neki nepostojeći prazan prostor. Što se tiče granice Zahumlja, na ovim mapama što sam pomenuo, granica Zahumlja je različito nacrtana. Zašto tvrdiš da je ovde netačna? I kako ti predlažeš da se poboljša mapa? PANONIAN (talk) 14:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

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Ok, imam ideju kako da prepravim mapu: prepraviću je i uploadovati novu verziju, pa onda reci šta misliš. PANONIAN (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

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Message from HRE

Hello and welcome back, my friend! I am afraid that I must ask a favor from you, I have been blocked for 24 hours by User:Chris_73 a while ago. As you can see on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR I have violated the 3RR wiki rule, but if you see carefully my 4 reverts, you will see that I only returned the Serbian language in all four, and differently (so it isn't really a revert) plus, I have been reverting the enexplained changes of a certain User:Emir_Arven. So, I think that I have more that sufficient grounds for an appeal to my block. And I am asking you to start the process of my unblocking (since I cannot, and you are an administrator). This is an urgent matter. I can't wait to hear from you. Good luck. --Sasa Stefanovic 15:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

This is from HRE too : Tell me whar you think about my articles Duklja, Zeta (state) and Zorsines. --Sasa Stefanovic 15:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Odobrenje, Holi, Sasa i nalog

Sto se tice odobrenja, kako ti kazes da je obicajno pravo na engleskoj Vikipediji. Uzmimo, meni je logicno da se strane kao sto su tekst licence, tekst odobrenja i sl. cuvaju zasticene. Sa druge strane, nije neophodno, to stoji. Ionako vodim racuna o tome, a postoji i istorija. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Holi i Sasa nisu iste osobe :) Sasa ti je prenosio ono sto je Holi pisao na IRC-u :) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Cuj se sa Stemom da ti otvori nalog na serveru da ne bi sifre isle preko neta. Kad vec postoji mogucnost da se to uradi putem telefona :) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

E da, nisam ja taj za kojeg me smatras ;D on je dosao juce na IRC i zamolio me da ti ostavim poruku jer je on blokiran, i rekao je da veruje da ces mu pomoci jer te 4 izmene nisu iste kako on govori. Pogledaj jos jednom ako mozes da li je stvarno tako. --Sasa Stefanovic 02:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

This page HAS to be archived, Joseph. Mi and I have warned you several times by now (just a friendly reminder) :S And, just look at these pages Petar Petrović Njegoš was a Serb and then the page was vandalised by Emir. Then, we had Mesha Selimovich a moslem Serb writer, who is now a Bosniak that considered himself a Serb for the last 11 years of his life. Not to mention the Montenegrin anthem. And he keeps acusing me of everything! HolyRomanEmperor 15:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Isto, dodao sam nesto tamo o onome sto si ti stavio o Dubrovackoj republici, prijatelju. HolyRomanEmperor 15:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Isto, dodao sam nesto tamo o onome sto si ti stavio o Dubrovackoj republici, prijatelju. HolyRomanEmperor 15:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Tamo o historiji Hrvatske bi trebalo nagovijestiti da srpki izvori tvrde 250,000 izbjeglica za vrijeme Oluje, a da hrvatski kazu 50,000-90,000. No, isto treba reci da bi 200,000 bila najtocnija cifra ([17] i [18]) tebi cu to ostaviti... HolyRomanEmperor 15:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Did you know?

• That King Tomislav, Ljudevit Gaj, Josip Juraj Strossermayer, Stipe Šuvar and Latin (Ivo Andric is generally considered a Serb) are the most loved Croats among the Serbs?

• ...that De Regno Sclavorum (the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja, Barski rodoslov)

claims that the Serbs built Dubrovnik (which later merged with Ragusa)? HolyRomanEmperor 16:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• ...that Ivan Gundulić considered Alexander the Great of Macedon a Serb. HolyRomanEmperor 17:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

• ...that De Administrando Imperio and other sources keep Croatian continutinity in Singidion until Srijem's loss to Bulgaria in 926-927

Evo prepravio sam mapu

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Principalities02.jpg

Reci šta misliš. Nema linija, ali ni praznog prostora između, nadam se da je ok kompromis? Ako je ova mapa ok, prepraviću i ovu drugu tako:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Serb_lands04.jpg

PANONIAN (talk) 00:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

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Moja korisnička strana

Evo druga mapa će verovatno sutra biti gotova (ima dosta posla oko nje). Nego, imam problem sa mojom korisničkom stranom, sa šablonom jezici. Prvo su se hrvatski i engleski nalazili na levoj strani, a kada je Jovan probao to da mi sredi, hrvatski se vratio u kutijicu, ali engleski je i dalje levo. Da li možeš to da mi popraviš ili da zamoliš nekog ko zna to da popravi da mi to sredi? PANONIAN (talk) 23:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

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Yugoslavia

I know nobody gives a shit, but think this [19] might help matters when it comes to all them nat'nalists? --VKokielov 06:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello!

I have read many articles pertaining to Yugoslavia and (primarily about the Yugoslav wars during the 1990s) and i am fascinated. Why? I'm not really sure, i just want to know more of where i come from (for you see, i have traced my roots back to Croatia and i have become increasingly interested in Yugoslavia and all things pertaining to it). Oddly enough i even picked up a book about Balkan politics when i really dislike politics in general. Although I must say, reading about the former Yugoslavia during the 70s and 80s was an overwhelming experience, and to read about the downfall and disoulvement of it during the 90s, it really hits a chord somewhere, but since I am unable to directly talke with those who have either lived it, experienced it, or just listen to stories about it, so who betetr than someone who hails from there? Eh, what im basically asking is what is it like? What was it like? It dissapoints me that although people were able to put aside differences long enough to form a country that to me seems grand (at least from what i have read and interpreted) to a gorup of people who seem too prideful and arrogant (and in some ways a bit selfish, depending on what regions they come from) that they ruin a perfectly good country go to ruin andcause an unneeded conflict. Plus i also hope to see if i can somehow track down any (if there are any) relatives that might not have come to America.

Xns

It's not quite so simple; but simple enough is the fact that the Western perception of the Balkans as a safari is wrong. --VKokielov 16:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I know this, although what i have read has been really westernized, this is why i am asking someone who lives there. This way, you will get a much more accurate image of it all. Although i must admit, the west does kind of sugar-coat some things here and there. Xns 17:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Popis hrvatskih gradova

Ispravio sam popis hrvatskih gradova. To su zadnji podaci, a ako te zanimaju općine njih imaš abecedno ili po županijama.

Pozdrav, Andrej Šalov 18:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

EffK is forced to Abandon a Corrupted Wikipedia

I refer you to my response of a few moments ago at 15 December [[20]],http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Evidence#3_December_2005 EffK 02:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Puting free images on wikipedia

Hi there... Just curious, why are you putting free images (like this one) on wikipedia instead on commons? --Dijxtra 16:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

forgotten answers

Nah, I've just re-checked the source. That part was just (Greek) Orthodox propaganda; all Kotromanics were Catholics, they just asumed a strict pro-Orthodox attitude after Tvrtko (crowned in Serb Orthodox monasteries). By the way, you gave no answer should Tvrtko be put amongst the Nemanjics in List of Serbian rulers, so I did not change it. HolyRomanEmperor 17:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Aleksandar Karađorđević or Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia

Any comments? Zocky 20:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)