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1947 Jammu massacres

Thanks a lot Kautilya for your appreciation and guidance. I think majority of the citations listed out in the references section of the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Jammu_massacres particularly qualify as reliable and neutral sources and I have studied them thoroughly. However I will surely further research on the content and try to develop it. I would like you to kindly elaborate what you meant by historically reliable sources, which as you mean are lacking currently. And I'm sorry for spreading out any half-baked information to other pages. I sincerely apologize. I'm still new to editing in Wikipedia and will refrain from doing anything as such in the future. Anyhow I'm not trying to sensationalize the incident as you have opined, I'm fully aware of the sensitiveness involved in the content and so I'm being much careful and absolutely neutral. After all its a 60-year old event doesn't mean it can be conveniently ignored, its occurrence had deep impact in the origins of the Kashmir conflict. My only intent is to bring this historically significant and event to readers knowledge despite being covered up due to political censorship as I can see. Apparently there are very few reports in the media or the historical accounts in India regarding such a mass killing which has been highly consequential. Despite having so many repercussions, it is quite seldom mentioned in any of the discussions about the concerned phases in our history. Therefore I feel that it is to be elaborated and given its due importance in the history, at least by simply acknowledging and stating that it occurred so, and by making people just aware of its occurrence to enhance their knowledge. I believe it is one of the fundamental mottos of Wikipedia. Thank you once again for the help and please continue to provide support with your valuable suggestions, if you may. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vamsee614 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Vamsee, yes it is an important event and it needs to be documented, but we don't do anybody any service by putting up random propaganda materials on Wikipedia. As I have pointed out on the article talk page, the numbers that are often thrown around are theoretically impossible. Chattha's thesis is a good source, and Christopher Snedden's book is an excellent source. You need to read them thoroughly, not just take little bits and pieces.

• We also need to make it clear that the violence in Jammu was an extension of the partition violence in Punjab and NWFP. It didn't come out of the blue. All said and done, Jammu still has 33.5% population Muslim (and Poonch is still 90% Muslim), which is infinitely better than what the neighbouring Punjab has managed.
• And, you can't take any British source as being neutral and third-party. The British were up to their necks in both India and Pakistan and various individuals bought into their stories. So, we can't just narrate what the sources say, but we also need to dig into what kind of a source it is, where the information is coming from (read the footnotes).
• We have reasonably good information that at least 70,000 were killed (Snedden's book, page 53, table 2.2). That is about the only thing I am certain of. The Pakistanis claim that another 200,000 migrated to West Punjab. But 270,000 is already too high a figure. There weren't enough Muslims in the Hindu-majority districts of Jammu to give such a high figure.
• The timing also needs to be studied carefully. The earliest 'massacre' in Table 2.2 occurred on 20 October. In contrast, Liaquat Ali Khan ordered the invasion on 12 September, more than a month earlier. (See the Timeline of the Kashmir conflict). Any suggestion that the massacres were the reason for the invasion is plain false. It is propaganda.
• It is also not clear that the Muslims started migrating because of the massacres. The first exodus of Muslims was reported on the 26 September. (Again, see the Timeline.) By then the Maharaja had appointed Mehr Chand Mahajan as the Prime Minister and he was telling New Delhi that he was willing to accede to India. That is reason enough for pro-Pakistan Muslims to migrate.

You need to read the policy pages WP:NPOV etc. to get an idea of how to approach a subject like this. Even though the topic needs to be documented, the frantic piece at which you started pushing unreliable and half-baked information to tons of pages was a serious problem. For all historical content, you need to use WP:HISTRS. Saeed Naqvi, for example, does not qualify. Both Chattha and Snedden are fine. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:17, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

@Vamsee614: After comparing the figures from the 1941 census and the 2011 census, I think the figure of 237,000 is believable, provided it is understood as the number killed plus the number migrated. The author of the The Times report is apparently a partisan, which explains the sensational wording. The number I get from the comparison is 192,000 which is likely to be an underestimate due to the variability in the population growth rates. However, there were no additional 200,000–300,000 that are supposed to have migrated. The 237,000 figure represents the total loss. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:57, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

"The removal of the Muslim population in Jammu region is evidenced clearly in the 1961 Census of India. In Jammu province, about 123 villages were ‘completely depopulated’, while the decrease in the number of Muslims in Jammu district alone was over 100,000.(59) It is possible to point out that the inter-religious violence that occurred in Jammu included a possible ‘genocide’ of Muslims in September-October 1947. The Maharaja of the Dogra Hindu state was complicit in the targeted violence against Kashmiri Muslims. Out of a total of 800,000 who tried to migrate, more than 237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated by all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs.(60) There is evidence of similar behaviour in other Princely States. A police report pointed out that over 250,000 Muslims alone were missing in the Sikh state of Patiala.(61)

references

54 The Journey to Pakistan: Documentation on Refugees of 1947, pp. 298-9. 55 Interview with Zafar Butt, Sialkot, 16 January 2007. 56 Interview with Khalid Ali Gujar, Sialkot, 16 January 2007. 57 Interview with Kawaja Tahir, Sialkot, 16 January 2007. 58 Interview with Zarar Hussian, Sialkot, 15 January 2007. 59 The Census of India, 1961, Vol. V1, cited in M. H. Kamili (ed.), Jammu and Kashmir: Census of India (Delhi : Manager of Publications, 1967), p.42 and p. 157 and pp. 359-60. 60 ‘Elimination of Muslims from Jammu’, II, The Times (London) 10 August 1948, p. 5"

--- Pg 184, Partition and Its Aftermath: Violence, Migration and the Role of Refugees in the Socio-Economic Development of Gujranwala and Sialkot Cities, 1947-1961 by Ilyas Ahmad Chattha.

you don't find this reasonable?

Vamsee614 (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. I have seen this stuff on web sites. It didn't occur to me to go look for it in Chattha's thesis. I am surprised that he was allowed to put it in as it is. This is bad. But note that this is one source among many. WP:NPOV tells you to study all the sources and include what represents the scholarly consensus. I am afraid Chattha is mixing fact with fiction.

• Let us interrogate the key figure: the number of Muslims killed. He says 237,000 were killed, and ignores the escape clause that appeared in The Times article: unless they escaped to Pakistan. Where is Chattha accounting for the people that escaped? We have a reliable analysis that appeared in Dawn in 1950 or so, that said that 200,000 refugees arrived from J&K in September-November. If so, that would leave only 37,000 unaccounted for. (I am not taking the Dawn figures at face value either, but that is the analysis and reconciliation that Chattha has failed to do. Snedden does it.)
• Where did the figure of 800,000 come from? That appears to be the total number of Muslims in the Indian-controlled Jammu province, chopping off the Poonch district into half. But Poonch was under the control of rebels throughout 1947, except for a garrison stuck in the fortified Poonch town. Were Muslims trying to migrate from their own territory? What about Rajouri, where the Muslims made up 68% of the population (or higher)? Were they trying to migrate from there too? If so, why didn't they? Bhimber is only a short hop away.
• He cites the The Times article for both the figures. But, Snedden, reading the same article says that 411,000 Muslims were vulnerable. No mention of whether they were trying to "migrate". Chattha mentions this figure at the bottom of page 180 (of the thesis), but ignores it. This is substandard.
• Chattha tells us that over 100,000 Muslims decreased in the "Jammu district alone". He is correct there. My calculations indicate that about 140,000 Muslims disappeared from the Jammu district. But what about the other districts? He is citing the 1961 census. So he knows the picture for all the districts. Why not tell us? By saying "Jammu district alone", he is trying to imply that things were equally bad in all the other places. But they weren't.
• Our sources also tell us stuff like this: To a limited extent threatening statements against the Kashmir Government issued on Radio Pakistan by Musim leaders who had migrated to Pakistan also added fuel to the fire. “Every time one of these leaders issued a sharp statement from Pakistan radio, firing on Muslim neighbourhood intensified.” The so-called "Muslim leaders" were the Muslim Conference leaders, to whom the Jammu Muslims subscribed. The Muslim Conference leaders were waging a war on the State, ignoring the fact that they had "hostages" inside. The conflict was also political, not purely communal.

If you don't have access to the Snedden artices/books, I suggest that you read at least the Kashmir Life article. It is not ideal, but it will at least give you some breadth that you are currently lacking. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I also tried to find out if Chattha has anything to say about the fate of non-Muslims in Mirpur and Poonch, but I couldn't. Perhaps you can dig into that. 20% of the Mirpur population was non-Muslim and 10% of Poonch jagir was non-Muslim. There were massacres there too. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

References

Regarding edit summary

I try to add edit summaries often, as a frequent editor on Wikipedia often when I correct grammar such as full stops, capital letters and pronouns I may forget the edit summaries. Rest assured, no bad intentions (Wiki id2(talk) 00:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC))

That is acceptable. But some of your edits to that page were substantial, even controversial, but carried no edit summary. Also, when you make a series of edits, there needs to be some indication of which edit is doing what. WP:Twinkle gives you a bunch of canned edit summaries that you can use when there is nothing substantive. It is best to always include an edit summary. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Your profile says 85% of your edits lack edit summaries. So it is a more serious problem than you are making it out to be. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes that's acceptable, I didn't know such a profile exists. Thank you for informing me. Having looked at it in depth, the bulk of my edits were in 2010 and so since then a lack of edit summary can be changed by adding one now (Wiki id2(talk) 00:31, 29 November 2016 (UTC))

Zero in the context of Khmer numerals

Kautilya3 needs to stop edit warring by reverting my edits three times in a row. Khmer is not Indian numeral system, but part of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system as clearly listed in the article. Referencing a random piece of information regarding Khmer numerals when talking about the Indian numeral history is irrelevant and lowers the quality of the article. You may as well cite what was going in China during that time frame, but it has no meaning in the context of this article. Anithinks (talk) 00:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Cold war (general term)

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Undoing my text and then threatening of Warring on my revert

Kautilya3, messaging me for reverting my changes while failing to see that repeatedly undoing my original text without a reason, different than what was directed to me, is warring by you.

Mention of "White Arabs vs Dark South Indians" to define Pak/Paleed has no basis, nor have any been provided by you. Have you? Citations can be added for my text (and some I already did), but does not make them wrong, unless proven wrong. Please undo what you did to my text. My edits are under one section and related to that section alone. You can add "citation needed" to it. ([user:Sholokov|Sholokov])

@Sholokiv: You added text here and, after revert, add it again, without any discussion. This is called WP:Edit warring.

You have also ignored the justification provided in my revert: Removing WP:OR and off-topic content; this is on caste system in "India" not caste system in "Islam".

• (1) WP:OR means original research, content representing your own views, not those of reliable sources. All content added to Wikipedia must be verifiable, supported by reliable sources. What is worse, you have added it in the middle of a sourced segment which is attributed to a scholar Barth, making it appear as if your OR is part of what he says. This is absolutely not acceptable.
• (2) "off-topic content" is referring to content that is not directly related to Caste system or that of India, which is what the page is about. Pak/Paleed discussions, entertainers, tawaif dancers, and brothels etc. are completely off the deep end. They have no place here.
• (3) This article is about Caste system in India. What kind of "hate" Muslims have for which groups etc. is not the business of this article. You are welcome to go and start a new article to document all such things.

When unsourced text is deleted you are not supposed to re-add it without providing a reliable source. See WP:BURDEN. In this particular case, you need not bother, because it is off-topic anyway, and it will get deleted. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:United States Senate election in South Dakota, 2016

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Modi

Of all the edits you could have chosen to revert, this? Vanamonde (talk) 14:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't have a full picture of what is going on with all the reverts. If they are under discussion, I would let them be, for a while. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:19, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

This gives you the clearest picture. The rest is twaddle over images and captions. Vanamonde (talk) 15:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Chetan Bhatt

Hello, Kautilya3. It has been over six months since you last edited your Articles for Creation draft article submission, "Chetan Bhatt".

In accordance with our policy that Articles for Creation is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the {{db-afc}} or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:17, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:North Korea

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Please comment on Talk:Sciences Po

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Sciences Po. Legobot (talk) 04:28, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for requesting a Wikiproject reassessment of the Sciences Po page. :) We're stuck, and we do need help! If you're willing to help further, may I point you to this thread. I'll let you form your own opinion, looking at how things started to get out of hand here, since I obviously got heavily involved in this mess... Good luck if you decide to dive in! SalimJah (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Gosh, I didn't realise that the page has been protected till March 2017. I have never seen such a long protection!

I guess if all the editors that edit-warred figure out a way to forward, you might be able to convince the admin to unlock the page.

I already have the talk page on my watch list and I will be happy to help. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

FYI: some of the action is also happening here. Exhausting, but I keep cool! :) SalimJah (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I hadn't seen this. Yes, it would be interesting to make incremental change, there's a lot that needs work. Creative ideas are most welcome. ^^SashiRolls (talk) 18:02, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi SashiRolls, I am just trying to get some agreement among the editors so that we can get the page unlocked. We have to be patient and take one step at a time. Things are not clear cut even though both the sides think they are. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

OK. I assume you responded to the straightforward referencing issue I raised, which is a useful first step towards getting the page unlocked. The more basic improvements that admin has to make, the less sympathetic s/he will be to those who are forcing administrative action for basic edits. In re: "diplomas" / "degrees", if you are French (which I'm gathering you are not?) you know that a Sciences Po diploma is worth a lot more than a diploma from an average university on the finance job market for example. I can tell you that many Grande Ecole system students who intend to continue in academics are encouraged to simultaneously jump through the hoops necessary for a public univ degree (which are considerably reduced based on coursework done at the Grande Ecole).

This article should put to rest any suspicion that a Science Po degree is somehow substandard: http://orientation.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/03/15/a-quoi-mene-vraiment-sciences-po/ SashiRolls (talk) 11:24, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:BITE concerns

I think your comments against that user on Talk:India as well as User talk:Pppooojjjaaa were BITEy. It's true that they were arguing perennial proposals but these were rebuked quickly enough. It was uncalled for to further comment on their behaviour and scrutinising each contrib. Edit-warring was minimal besides that one revert of my edit. Cmon, we've seen worse experienced editors on India edit-warring and not even discussing on Talk versus multiple editors; if anyone deserved to be rebuked so badly, it was them. I'm saying this because I feel guilty that no one (myself included) speak up against such people at times but newbies are soft and frequent targets. Surely everyone feels something when they see a newbie quit because of this rather than grows into a (much needed) editor who learns from mistakes. We all came here making such mistakes, righting the wrong etc, no one expects someone to just register and know everything. This editor was misguided and may have had competence issues but this still wasn't justified. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Ugog, thanks for the caution. I agree I probably came on too strong. I was put off by the constant bombardment of the talk page, not so much that he/she was a newbie. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:32, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom case

Dear Kautilya3,

Yes I am aware of the case that I filed, I did ping Towns Hill and Tiger7254 before you did, given that I filed the case, however they have yet to respond. I think once they have replied then the arbCom can decide?
I believe that the phrase regional power is referred to further in the article given that Kashmir is divided between both India and Pakistan (regional dispute) as well the fact that Pakistan was involved in Afghanistan during the Soviet era (another regional intervention)
Furthermore, I stated the rationale regarding my treatment at the hands of Tiger7253 who had mixed his ad hominem attack on me with the essentially impersonal nature of referencing, as a result I sought arbitration to decide as to whether such personal behaviour possessed any legitimacy. Thank you for contacting them and I hope they reply soon
Kind regards (Wiki id2(talk) 01:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC))

The ARBCOM case will not be accepted. You did not follow the procedure.

To complain about the conduct of editors, you can approach WP:ANI or any admin that is active in the area. ARBCOM is only the last resort when all else fails. I have now given a warning to Tiger. If their conduct does not improve, you can make further complaints to admins. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:37, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

That is fine, I'm okay with ArbCom not opening the case because I wrote on the first line, that I have not filed a case before, and did not know how such a procedure would work. Thank you and to the other Wikipedia editors for giving me the link to file for verbal harm from Tiger, I did not know about this link (I was only aware of ArbCom as it features prominently on wikipedia) and was informed by ArbCom and yourself about the other places to settle disputes. But I will file separately regarding unnecessary personal insults. With regards to your notice to Tiger7253 yes I see it has warned him about the need for dispute resolution (Wiki id2(talk) 12:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC))

Furthermore, I took on your advice about providing an "edit summary" (or have tried to do so as much as I can without forgetting) can you please provide me that link so I can see what percentage of my edits have a summary and the log/history of my recent edits.
Kind regards,
(Wiki id2(talk) 12:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC))

On your home page, there should be menu called "User". Under it, you can follow "Analysis" and "XTools", which generates the analysis page for you. There are also other Analysis tools which provide information about your activities. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 12:30, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

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Oh, dear. What a mess! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Disputed status of Gibraltar

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Somnath

You reverted the following edit I made. I did not fully understand your reasoning. Can you elaborate?

In 1299, Alauddin Khilji's army under the leadership of Ulugh Khan defeated Karandev II of the Vaghela dynasty, and sacked the Somnath temple. According to Taj-ul-Ma'sir of Hasan Nizami, the Sultan boasted that "fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword" and "more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors." - previous

vs.

Next was Alauddin Khilji's army, under the leadership of Ulugh Khan, who sacked the temple; the Sultan claimed "fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword" and "more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors." - my edit

(67.81.108.138 (talk) 22:51, 17 December 2016 (UTC))

Actually, it is not a big deal. It is almost the same. (67.81.108.138 (talk) 22:58, 17 December 2016 (UTC))

You expanded the Yagnik and Sheth source for content that is not in the book. You can't do that! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Ok, understood. (67.81.108.138 (talk) 23:08, 17 December 2016 (UTC))

References

Please comment on Talk:And you are lynching Negroes

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:And you are lynching Negroes. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Singapore Changi Airport

I would like to move this article to just "Changi Airport" and drop 'Singapore' from the name. This would be in line with airport articles like Heathrow Airport and Indira Gandhi International Airport. The common name for Singapore's only international airport is simply just "Changi Airport" (http://www.changiairport.com/) and the 'Singapore' in front is a redundant addition. I however do not have the necessary privileges required to move the page, so I was wondering if an admin would be able to do it. Thanks Tiger7253 (talk) 12:19, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Tiger, you need to follow the procedures stated at WP:Requested moves. If you are sure that it it is not controversial, you can request a "technical move". Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 12:43, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Fidel Castro

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Apparently random question

What would I talk to you about ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cleareng (talk • contribs) 09:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

You can talk about the Indian subcontinent.

References

Saraiki dialect -> Saraiki language

Hi, you're welcome to comment in the move discussion taking place at Talk:Saraiki dialect. Thanks! – Uanfala (talk) 10:52, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Confusion

I don't understand this edit summary. I mean, I know the saying but not how it applies here. I'm not around for at few days at least. - Sitush (talk) 01:34, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Sitush, I have tried to keep the good edits, the infobox, the url clean-up etc. (I do this using a case-by-case diff analysis tool I have on my editor.) Have a good Christmas! Hope you are feeling well. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:56, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Cold War

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Mir Shah and Shah Mir Dynasty

I need your help. In Shah Mir and Shah Miri dynasty these vandals keep changing the origin of the Dynasty. Is there anyway to protect this article and block these vandals. I don't want to get in trouble for reversing their vandalism multiple times. Plus, origin has already been discussed and agreed. (70.192.71.56 (talk) 06:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC))

No, it hasn't been agreed. The pro-Swat people seem convinced of their theory, but haven't really discussed anything, nor brought any sources. I will look again to see if there are any better sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Kashmir source

You are indeed correct. The source is indeed given, The Hindustan Times, http://www.hindustantimes.com/static/the-young-militants-of-kashmir/ but the money claim is utterly at variance with the what the article actually says. It is a mangled attempt to describe economic incentives given to the area by the Indian Govt as Pakistani subsidies to engage in terrorism. You were correct to revert, however the biggest issue with that edit was the attempt to completely misrepresent a source. Either WP:CIR or a deliberate attempt to misrepresent a source are the issues here. I suspect elements of both. Regards Irondome (talk) 01:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, the editor didn't actually add a source. He/she merely tagged an existing source with the new content. So, it appeared as if it was sourced. This is a standard tactic the clever vandals use! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Ha! of course. I should have checked the source trail thoroughly before reverting. My apologies. I hope all is well with you! Irondome (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2016 (UTC) we

Muslim conquests of the Indian subcontinent

I believe we may have our work cut out for us.[1]

FYI, J.E. Ellam is referred to as "Captain" in a number of places, suggesting a non-historian. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:21, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, please feel free to revert. Not only is this a dated source, it is also a [[WP:PRIMARY] source pushing a particular view, which, according to the author's own admission is WP:FRINGE. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I have removed some questionable sentences not supported by their sources, along with copied information and information by non-historian/unreliable sources. I am thinking the article needs a good dose of neutrality. User:Polyenetian seems to be trying to highlight massacres committed by Muslims.

Judging from the copy & pasting, racist comments and outright lies, perhaps an Admin would be better suited to address Polyenetian's POV editing.

Your thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Kansas, I think you need to relax bit. I know it is frustrating to keep watching pages like this, but that is how Wikipedia works! The guy got a block for his personal attacks and I gave him another warning before Christmas. He seems to be quiet for now. Admins won't block people for merely POV-pushing, but only if they persist with it despite reverts and warnings. Please feel free to give him any more warnings he needs. It is indeed difficult to decide what is neutral when we are dealing with massacres. The reliable sources themselves have that difficulty, let alone our editors! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:23, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

New addition to Kashmir

Do you think the following addition on page 'Kashmir' under subsection '1947-1948' would be a good idea? I think the sentiments of the individual religious and ethnic populatiions in each part of the former princely state need to be included. What do you think?

According to Christopher Snedden, political divisions within the state demonstrated that Jammu and Kashmir was a disunited and essentially undeliverable entity. In 1947 the political scene in the state was dominated by two parties: the National Conference and the Muslim Conference. The National Conference was opposed to accession to Pakistan while the Muslim Conference was in favour of accession to Pakistan. The National Conference was popular in the Kashmir Valley where perhaps 50% of Muslims and many Hindus supported it. The Muslim Conference was popular in Jammu Province. Muslims in Western Jammu as well as Muslims in the Frontier Province Districts strongly wanted to join Pakistan however Muslims inside Kashmir Province were ambivalent about Pakistan, possibly due to their natural attraction to secular thinking and because the popular National Conference leader, Sheikh Abdullah, was pro-India. Snedden states that despite the National Conference's apparent popularity inside the Kashmir Valley, it was not the most popular party there. Prem Nath Bazaz's Kisan Mazdoor Conference also had unquantifiable support in the Valley. The CMG, the best-informed English language newspaper on J&K affairs, on 21 October 1947 reported that the southern Kashmir Valley, which was apparently the 'stronghold' of the Kisan Mazdoor Conference, witnessed a massive upsurge in favour of Pakistan. However, the Hindu and Sikh population of the state, both in Jammu Province and in the Valley, was strongly pro-India, as well as the Buddhist population.

Towns_Hill 12:07, 27 December 2016 (UTC) (Towns Hill)

Hi Towns Hill, yes, indeed, the political fragmentation of the State's Muslims along Jammu-Kashmir axis is well-known and needs to be stated. The views of the State's Hindus is, on the other hand, much less understood, but I can probably dig up some sources for that later.

• I am not comfortable with attaching a percentage figure (50%) to quantify the National Conference support, which seems to be Snedden's personal guess. Copland says that he can't say, and I regard him as more knowledgeable about Kashmir than Snedden. Copland also points out that the election boycott called by the NC in 1946 was nearly 100% successful in the Valley. So 50% is way off the mark.
• The Muslim Conference certainly wanted to join Pakistan, which was its official position by August 1947. And, it had significant support in the Poonch and Mirpur districts. Whether all Muslims in these districts "strongly wanted" to join Pakistan is questionable, but I can go along with the idea that MC was stronger than NC in those districts. (Do you know that MC even tried to team up with the Hindu Sabha in Jammu (the present day BJP)? It wasn't as strong as it is made out to be.)
• By "Frontier districts", Snedden probably means Gilgit and Baltistan (even though the entire Ladakh wazarat was officially a "Frontier ilaqa"). There is no evidence that these people "strongly wanted" to join in Pakistan. Yaqub Khan Bangash says that he can't say. They would have probably liked to stay independent.
• By the way, Sheikh Abdullah wasn't as "pro-India" as he is made out to be. He understood quite well the problems that would arise from acceding to either India or Pakistan. As a matter of fact, Nehru also understood those problems. That is why neither of them forced the issue. If only the Muslim Conference waited for a year or so, some reasonable solution would have been found.
• As for the Kisan Mazdoor Conference, I don't believe what Snedden is claiming. (And, I don't think CMG was particularly well-informed either.) I will try to double check with other sources.

Thanks very much for asking! And, for giving detailed references! -- Kautilya3 (talk)

@Towns Hill, please see this edit to Timeline of the Kashmir conflict. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:54, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Towns Hill, Srinath Raghavan says, On 29 September Sheikh Abdullah was set free. Soon, emissaries from Pakistan were approaching him; but Abdullah remained noncommittal. In fact he had already decided in favour of accession to India and had begun shaping public opinion.[16]

That would seem to support your assertion that he was "pro-India". But does it, really? The same Abdullah blocked Kashmir from getting integrated into India, despite enormous pressure. Three years later, he turned around and wanted to make Kashmir independent. That doesn't seem particularly "pro-India".

Sheikh Abdullah was a politician. And, politics doesn't go linearly, as pro-X or anti-Y. Everything is dependent on the circumstance, based on pushes and pulls. On 29 September, he knew that Kashmir had to accede to India because it couldn't withstand the armed insurgency that was happening in Poonch and Mirpur. The rebels already got 4,000 rifles from Akbar Khan, and they outnumbered the Kashmir State Forces something like 10:1. So, the State had no chance. Abdullah was merely using India to keep Kashmir from falling into Pakistan's hands.

Sadly, India wasn't good enough for Kashmir. It still isn't. Neither is Pakistan. So, we need to stop fighting and let Kashmiris figure out for themselves what they want to do. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Towns Hill, you have corroboration from Henry Lawrence Scott that the NC enjoyed 50% support in the Valley. So you can go with that figure. (This is a very nice article available in full online. I highly recommend it.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:58, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Arbitrary break

1. Unfortunately Kashmir is jumbled up with Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit and Azad-Kashmir so much that the issue becomes complex and hard to understand both academically and politically. (Towns Hill)

I agree. We do need to straighten out the extent of "Kashmir" here. See the discussions at Talk:Kashmir/Archive 5#Extent of "Kashmir" and Talk:Kashmir Valley#Arbitrary break, where Fowler&fowler and I appear to have switched sides. I still prefer the present Kashmir page to be retitled Kashmir region, and a new article to be developed on Kashmir proper. At the moment, we don't have a page that is truly devoted to "Kashmir" and that is a great disservice to Kashmiris. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

2. There is an increasing realisation amongst Valley Kashmiris that Jammu, Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan were never really 'Kashmiri' and have no real reason to participate in Kashmiri nationalism. Jammu was culturally and ethnically an extension of Punjab (it was united with Kashmir very artificially) and the Muslim-Hindu divisions in it were similar to what happened in Punjab. So Valley Kashmiris are increasingly realising that Jammu and Azad Kashmir (also Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan) should be allowed to go with the countries they naturally feel inclined to (and which they are already administered by). However, in 'Kashmiri' history the feeling that Kashmiris have lost their political independence dates back actually to Mughal times. And it is increasingly felt that this sense of political independence should be exclusive to ethnic Kashmiris. I think the information on this should be firmly included in the Wikipedia entries on this subject. (Towns Hill)

I am glad they are realising that. Until recently, it was the JKLF irredentism that ruled the day. It would be good to see evidence that they are realising it.

However, thinking in terms of "countries" won't get anybody anywhere. All the parts are still interconnected and they have always been. (See, e.g., the Shah Mir page). I don't think they can live without each other. All the parts are really tiny, which don't have enough weight to survive in the modern world. So thinking in terms of "countries" with rigid national boundaries won't solve any problems. The idea of a "condominium" has often been mentioned. During the Musharraf times they came close to it. I think Modi has enough power to do it. But it is not clear if Nawaz Sharif does.

Also, the Kashmiris are yet to prove that they can govern themselves. In six decades of independence, they haven't yet produced a single decent Chief Minister. They keep blaming India and Pakistan for all their problems, but they don't yet understand their own internal problems. If India tramples on their rights (in a manner of speaking) that is a result of they themselves trampling on the rights of Jammuites. Autonomy for Jammu was promised in the 1952 Delhi agreement, but never delivered. That can be the first step towards a condominium idea. And, Kashmiris can do it themselves without anybody's help. Why don't they? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

3. There are scholarly sources (which I think should be added onto Wikipedia) which state that respected individuals such as Dixon advocated that the LOC should be finalised as an international border except for the Kashmir Valley which should be the place which gets a plebiscite to choose between not two, but three, options (i.e independence). The sources (such as Snedden) further expand on the point that India also advocated for the inclusion of Kashmiri-speaking areas in Azad Kashmir in such a plebiscite. I believe Dixon was one of the few people who actually realised what the Kashmir issue was all about. (Towns Hill)

The so-called "Dixon Plan" was actually Nehru's proposal. And Snedden is wrong to think that Pakistan rejected it. (He doesn't provide a citation.) The reason the Dixon Plan fell apart is clearly stated: He also assured Liaquat that the voting would be fair: in the plebiscite area, government functionaries would be replaced by UN appointees. Dixon should have known better; for Nehru had explicitly ruled this out during the discussions on an overall plebiscite. Unsurprisingly, Nehru rejected the idea yet again. See also Noorani. Hundreds of pages of UN reports have been written which document this position of India. Nobody in India would ever accept any conditions that undermine the accession of Kashmir. You can ask them to make political concessions. But you can't ask them to negate the accession. The UN mediators never understood this point, including Dixon. Or, perhaps he did. But Pakistan didn't want to risk a plebiscite with Sheikh Abdullah in power. Strangely enough, it expected that India should risk it. Nehru was happy to accept the risk. But he needed an honourable settlement, not one where India could be seen as being bullied, by either Pakistan or the world powers.

Unfortunately, the more Pakistan tries, the more it gives the impression of bullying India. And the Indian position hardens ever more. The best thing Pakistan can do for Kashmir is to back off. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

4. It should be noted that while Sheikh Abdullah at times did certainly advocate a pro-India position, the Kashmiri population was ambivalent about both Pakistan and India (though both certainly had supporters in the Valley. The former even had the backing of the socialist Kisan Mazdoor Conference led by Kashmiri Pandit Prem Nath Bazaz and that party was very popular in the southern section of the Valley). The natural allegiance of most ethnic Kashmiri Muslims was always in favour of an independent identity. They were ambivalent about Pakistan and never were truly enthusiastic about being with India either. Even Sheikh Abdullah made sure that Kashmir would get maximum autonomy if it were to join India (but for many Kashmiris even this was not enough). In other words he didn't join India wholeheartedly. (Towns Hill)

I agree with most of that. But I am not sure of the bit: but for many Kashmiris even this was not enough. It represents a static view of the situation, but things are never static. Between 1953–1974, there was an active Plebiscite Front, which coloured people's perceptions. That still didn't stop them from supporting India in the two wars. Between 1974–1989, there is considerable evidence that people were reconciled to being in India. But by 1989, the National Conference had become increasingly corrupt, and people sought political alternatives. National Conference didn't let any opposition come up, and things came to a breaking point. Very little of this actually had anything to do with India. But everybody finds it advantageous to blame India for it. I am not denying that there was political game-playing by the Congress party, which is quite deplorable but it is not uncommon in India just as elsewhere. The reasons for the blow-up in 1989 are the inherent problems of Kashmir's own politics, but then it has been exploited by all parties afterwards.

If Pakistan backs off from Kashmir and normalises relations with India, which is in its own interest as well as India's, then Kashmiris will get an opportunity to sort out their own problems. As long as Pakistan keeps meddling, I can't see any change happening. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:07, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

5. There was a sizeable ethnic Kashmiri diaspora in (Pakistani) Punjab during Partition and historically ethnic Kashmiris were discriminated against by Punjabis (of all religions-Muslim, Hindu and Sikh) and Kashmiris in Punjab were known by the derogatory label of 'Hato' (the people of Azad Kashmir and Jammu region also used this term for Valley Kashmiris) and the community was stereotyped as being 'cowardly'. I believe this attitude carried over into Liaquat Ali Khan's attitude when he stated “…[T]he people of Kashmir were bound to vote, in the plebiscite, in favour of whatever administration was then in power. The Kashmiris were an illiterate and oppressed people, and they would be bound to favor the authority in possession. If an Englishman went as administrator, they would vote to join the United Kingdom,”. Liaquat Ali Khan was from the UP-East Punjab area and carried the same attitude towards Kashmiris which stereotyped them as a cowardly and irresponsible people. Similar attitudes were held in India by the 1950s. I think the above quote from Liaquat Ali Khan is important to convey Pakistan's perspective on Kashmiris in 1947. Note that this quote is from the December 1947 meeting between Liaquat Ali Khan and Nehru (the meeting is given only a cursory mention on the Kashmir Conflict page). (Towns Hill)

6. It should also be noted that not all Pandits are pro-India. Even today there are some Kashmiri Pandit nationalist activists (example Nitasha Kaul), just as not all Kashmiri Muslims are pro-secessionist. However, this fact is watered down often because religion is a strong source of strength for Kashmiri nationalism. (Towns Hill)

In Kashmir, I root for a new generation of politics represented by people like Shehla Rashid Shora. In Pakistan, likewise, I root for the new generation represented by people like Alia Amirali. These people recognise the real issues of the society: governance, development, fighting corruption/nepotism/discrimination etc.; not religion, not nationalism, not sloganeering and certainly not terrorism. The question is how long it will take for people to sign up to this new brand of politics. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:26, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

References

AE case

I have mentioned you in an AE case I just filed: Link. Thank you. Soham321 (talk) 18:24, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Sarah Jane Brown

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Sarah Jane Brown. Legobot (talk) 04:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

User:BlueGreenYellowRed

This User:BlueGreenYellowRed keeps on edit warring with me and lots of other editors. Literally that is what he/she does everyday on wiki. Plus, he/she uses multiple IPs to edit war against wiki editors as well. Can you please help in telling him/her to stop edit warring? This is not productive to wiki at all. (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 16:08, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

Hi, anybody can give a warning for edit-warring. Please use the templates

• {{subst:uw-3rr|Article|Additional text}} -- for 3RR warning
• {{subst:uw-ew|Article|Additional text}} -- for generic warning

I am not an admin. So I shouldn't get involved in matters that are too far off my areas of interest. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Who can I contact? An admin you can recommend who oversees India related articles? (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

SpacemanSpiff and NeilN are active in the India pages. But you need to provide evidence of misbehaviour. Giving an edit-warring notice is the first step. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:43, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks man! Always appreciate your help. (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 16:55, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

I see you already gave him/her a warning. I also put my warning there as well here. Thanks again! (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 17:02, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

Why do you think my warning was removed? I followed your recommendation. here (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 17:59, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

It seems that you copy-pasted my warning, and somebody thought you were game-playing. In any case, the next step is to open a talk page discussion on the article's talk page. If the user doesn't respond but continues to edit-war, then you can approach an admin. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 18:20, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, I will do that.

Also, MBlaze Lightning, why did you undo my warning? (2600:1001:B025:A55A:F9A9:484D:8452:5820 (talk) 18:46, 30 December 2016 (UTC))

Need advise

Hello again,

I think User:BlueGreenYellowRed, User:TurkPathan, and this IP are the same. Because when I check their location it seems like the same spot and similar edits. If they are the same individual, this is not allowed on wiki. Can you please tell them to cut it off (using multiple accounts to edit war with me)? (2600:1001:B01F:57AA:88C9:9E38:F39D:74A1 (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC))

Rechecking the location and edit history, I "think" all of these accounts belongs to User:Barthateslisa. (2600:1001:B01F:57AA:88C9:9E38:F39D:74A1 (talk) 18:53, 31 December 2016 (UTC))

Ok, I will look into it. Relax and have a Happy New Year! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:07, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks buddy! It was great working with you for the last few years. I keep getting your "thank you for your contribution" posts. Always appreciate it. (2600:1001:B01F:57AA:88C9:9E38:F39D:74A1 (talk) 19:11, 31 December 2016 (UTC))

One question. What do you mean by there are the "same spot". How do you know the location of editors? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:26, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

On the bottom of the contribution page. There are account info esp. for the IPs. (2600:1001:B01F:57AA:88C9:9E38:F39D:74A1 (talk) 19:41, 31 December 2016 (UTC))

I found another IP of this user. (2600:1001:B01F:57AA:88C9:9E38:F39D:74A1 (talk) 21:20, 31 December 2016 (UTC))

Map

Animated map of Indo-European migrations

You may like this one. Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Impressive! Didn't know you were such a techie! But this goes too fast for me. I need a 'pause' button to understand what is going on. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

+1, impressive indeed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: thanks for slowing it down. It is clearer now. But, are we get into trouble with "migrations" vs "expansions" here?

Here is a tid bit. "Sapta Sindhava", the land of seven high places (not seven waters), is first attested in Sumerian as bad imin. H. W. Bailey raises the question whether it was taken over from the nomenclature used by the Indus Valley people. How many Indus Valley people might have been there among those we call "Indo-Aryans"?

Were the BMAC Aryans already separated from the Iranians? Could a borrowed god, "Indra", become a central god for them without a large assimilation of the BMAC people themselves? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Haak et al. (2015) speak of "migrations," as so many aother sources, so that doesn't seem problematic.

The "Sapta Sindhava" nomenclature is interesting. The BMAC stood on (close?) contact with the IVC; and I'll bet that the Indian Indo-Aryan population was a mix of steppe/BMAC Indo-Aryans and descendants of the IVC people. The Iranians spread much later, centuries later. Anyway, creating this GIF showed me that "the" Indo-European migrations were not a simple story of some Indo-European cowboys raiding thr steppes; instead, it's a very complicated story of population movements, extending over millennia. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: I am not sure I understand yet the timeline involved. I have to read the articles. But a couple of things that occur to me:

• The "Vedic tribes" didn't come to Punjab first. They settled in Afghanistan's Saraswati Valley (Helmand) first. Then they expanded. The "Family books" of Rigveda were entirely composed in Afghanistan.
• The IE's along the southern front weren't merely pastoral, I think. They were traders. They were selling horses and metals to the urban civilisations to the south. (Remember the "horse trader's grave" at the BMAC, the one with the gold tooth fillings?) Here is a theory. The Indo-Aryans ended up in Anatolia because, the IVC died, and there was no market for horses in India. So they went looking for markets. It was only after the Indian branch established their own Kuru State that they had enough money to buy horses. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

You're right about Aghanistan; The map which shows the migrations toward Anatolia (Mitanni) and India may not be entirely accurate. The first part of your theory sounds very interesting; I've never thought about it that way, but it makes sense, also because the Indo-Aryans were entangled with the BMAC, which had far reaching connections. The second part, I don't know. The Kuru state is half a millennium after the first migrations into India, when there was no BMAC anymore. Checkinh Anthony (2007) The Horse ; p.49-50, makes a link with horse-training, so how about the kings there buying horses and hiring the people to train and take care of them? Regarding the BMAC and its trade-network, I guess I read that at Parpola's "The Roots of Hinduism," but I'm not sure. But I did read it somewhere. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Now have a look at [http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/12/early-indo-european-migrations-map.html this; I'm honoured! :) Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:50, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Very nice!!! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:16, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Caution

It isn't entirely clear to me what your issue is with User:Paine Ellsworth. In any case, if you have already gotten this notice in the past twelve months, my apologies.

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding India and Pakistan, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is WP:ARBIPA. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you that sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Korean ethnic nationalism

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Kashmir

@Kautilya3: There is a relatively recent follow-on book by Chitralekha Zutshi, published in 2014 by Oxford University Press. I read a few pages, RS stuff, and thought it is worth your consideration in that article. I see other editors and you cite her 2004 book. The 2014 updates her past work and covers late 16th century through 20th, the complex history, the linkages between Sanskrit, Persian, and local traditions/institutions/dynamics. Have you read it? If not, perhaps, worth your review and consideration given your stellar efforts with articles in this difficult, disputed space: Kashmir's Contested Pasts: Narratives, Sacred Geographies, and the Historical Imagination, ISBN 978-0199450671. Cheers for your good patient contributions, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:52, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Sarah. I recall watching the video of a talk on this book. Unfortunately, the book is about literary history rather than actual history. So it may be difficult to find stuff that is useful for our articles. But I will look.

I also found the PhD thesis of Andrew Major (whose article in the DA Low book you mentioned). This should be useful for the Maharaja Ranjit Singh article and other Punjab articles. I also found a book by Rajmohan Gandhi that has a good coverage of Ranjit Singh.

• Major, Andrew J. (1996), Return to Empire: Punjab under the Sikhs and British in the Mid-nineteenth Century, Sterling Pub Private Limited
• Gandhi, Rajmohan (2013), Pujab: A History from Aurangzeb to Mountbatten, Aleph Book Company, ISBN 9382277587

Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 00:16, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

One more (pp. 71-72 are on administration system in Kashmir under Mughal and others):

• Shakti Kak (2007). Waltraud Ernst; Biswamoy Pati (eds.). India's Princely States: People, Princes and Colonialism. Routledge. pp. 71–72 (see chapter 5 which is dedicated to J&K). ISBN 978-1-134-11988-2.

Even the 2004 book of Chitralekha Zutshi was driven by literary sources/history, mainly colonial (European) and Dogra records, quoting a lot from sources that disagree with each other. But this is not an area I follow, and my memory is hazy. Worth a crosscheck. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Gilgit

Hello. I am unable to access Bangash's journal article so I wish to see a quote. Moreover this article is dated to 2010 whereas Bangash's article in the Express Tribune is dated to 2016. It seems to me that he might have changed his earlier opinion. There needs to be a reconciliation between Bangash's 'two' opinions. Towns_Hill 00:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC) Towns Hill.

Hi Towns Hill, we really have no idea what the "people" of Gilgit wanted to do. But the powerful guys were trying to set up an independent republic when Pakistan went and took them over. I quoted the exchange between the Pakistani Political Agent and the provisional government in the article itself. Why isn't that enough? Here is the full paragraph for your satisfaction:

On 18 November 1947, the provisional government asked to see the political agent and impressed upon him that in fact they were the real power and that he, Alam, should take all decisions in consultation with them. Led by Captain Hassan and Captain Mohammad Said, they demanded that both British officers be sacked and that they should be appointed in their stead. Alam replied, as recorded by Brown: ‘you are a crowd of fools led astray by a madman. I shall not tolerate this nonsense for one instance. Another squeak out of you, and Major Brown and myself will pack up . . . it will not be long before the country [will be] plunged into civil war. And when the Indian Army starts invading you there will be no use screaming to Pakistan for help, because you won’t get it.’70 After this Hassan was appointed military governor of the Bunji sector and ordered to focus on that mission only. The provisional government soon faded away after this encounter with Alam Khan, clearly reflecting the flimsy and opportunistic nature of its basis and support.

There is no mention of accession anywhere, except in the title of the paper. Hunza and Nagar did want to accede to Pakistan. That is a different matter from the Gilgit wazarat. I know that Bangash contradicted himself in the 2016 op-ed, but an op-ed can never trump a peer-reviewed journal paper.

We should note however the difference between the Gilgit Agency and the Gilgit Wazarat. All the other princely principalities came under the Gilgit Agency. They were subdued by the British without any involvement from Kashmir. But the Gilgit wazarat, consisting of the Gilgit leased area and Astore, were full-fledged part of the state. Man of those people went and studied in Kashmir, including Mirza Hassan Khan and Amanullah Khan. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

References

Please comment on Talk:Real Irish Republican Army

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Pushyabhuti dynasty

Let's discuss this before you revert my hard work. What is wrong with my edits? Please explain. (2600:1001:B00F:BFC8:A9E4:FC87:F252:A974 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

You should have discussed them before you reinstated edits. As such, you are edit-warring.

As for the edits themselves, do you have a history of India book that has Pushyabhuti dynasty as a chapter or section?

Pinging Utcursch for his attention. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:24, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Wow, just look for it in google books. There are a ton of books about this dynasty. here or here. (67.81.108.138 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

I said as a "chapter or a section". Upinder Singh book has it, but coupled with Harshavardhana. It is a 1000 page book, but this is an encyclopedia article a hundredth of its size. The weight here has to be on Harsha, not Pushyabhuti. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:34, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Fine, I get your point. I will reverse it. (2600:1001:B00F:BFC8:A9E4:FC87:F252:A974 (talk) 23:35, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

rejection of my edit on article kathua district

I corrected the wrong figures of population, population density and deleted some irrelevant data . But I found that I got a -447 in my contributions and all my edits got reverted. I provided the evidence and citations for my edits . If you did it please reconsider it alongwith the citations and evidences. I am contacting you because you were the last editor of the page Thank you and sorry if you were not the one who reverted them AnadiDoD (talk) 07:51, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Here are your edits that are still remaining. I have deleted your addition of MP to the government field, because that field is meant for the district government. You are welcome to add that information to the politics section. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Pratagya

Notice the irony of Pratagya Magazine hosting European authors complaining about the dominance of western Indology. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

And, of course, writing in English. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Nothing new. In postcolonial history, we call it "double optics" of "irony"[2] , first used by Terry Eagleton . To put it simply, in order to get out of colonialism, one has to use the weapons of colonialism. The same thing was said by Edward Said as "remapping". :-) Ghatus (talk) 11:45, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

That's why Indians use English and English is so heavily dependent on Latin[3] and French[4].Ghatus (talk) 11:54, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi JJ, that link just took me to some Rajiv Malhotra stuff, no European authors.

But more generally, yes, western Indology does have loads of biases. Indian scholars don't exist in most areas or haven't made their mark (except in History, which was radically changed by Indians after the independence). Religious Studies is especially a problem, because India doesn't even have a field called Religious Studies. The Left-liberal leadership never saw the need for it and it is hard to attract good people into the area. So the "Battle for Sanskrit" is indeed needed, but it is mostly the fault of Indians that they haven't joined it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:31, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Gavara

Reg your edit in balija page . Please put Kavarai (Gavara) under branches. It is one of the branches of the social group. One branch of balija is called kavarai in tamilnadu . It is not the tamil word for all balijas. In tamilnadu, all balija merchants are not called Kavarai (Gavara). It is one branch only.

See Backward Castes list of Tamil Nadu . Entry number 30 refers to Gavara, Gavarai and Vadugar(Vaduvar)(other than Kamma, Kapu,Balija and Reddi) . Government recognizes Gavara is a separate caste. Gavaras who make up Balija form a separate branch.

The Gavara are mainly part of Komati caste since medieval period. Gavara Komatis are the most commonly found subcaste of Komatis in tamilnadu. Details must go to Gavara page and in Komati page.--Anon=us (talk) 10:49, 8 January 2017 (UTC)anon=us

I am afraid a government caste list doesn't settle the issue when multiple scholarly sources say kavarai and balija are equivalent. It is possible that the term "balija" also continues to be used for people who didn't get naturalised in the Tamil country. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Balija is generic name for trader. One can trade in anything. Not all can belong to same branch and social strata. In Andhra, Kavara or Kavarai are separate group. In Tamil Nadu, Kavara are part of Gajulu or Gajula Balija; as is already mentioned in the article. Among them, there was a difference. Previously vegetarian Kavarais married Komati (Gavara Komati) while meat eaters married Gajulu Balija. But since few decades, Gajula and Kavarai marry each other irrespective of religious and dietary differences. However, apart from religious and dietary considerations, biggest difference came from occupational status. Back in time, a textile trader would marry someone of similar background in textile trade. A bead-maker into bead-maker family. Even today, does a guy selling garlands outside a temple, marry into a family of jewelers? People were organized based on type of trade, were separated by occupation and married within same social strata. These differences began breaking down since the British Raj due to education, secular vocations, and upward social movement. There are sources which attest to Gavara / Kavarai being separate group from Balija, such as this and this. Your sentence is best moved to the branch of gajula balija, since the article already mentions Gajula Balija/Kavara Balija/Sugavansi (pure) Balija (to denote Kavara is alter name for Gajula branch). Also because the Francis source details glass making, trade between India and Southeast Asia and mentions ayyavole and manikgraman guilds. Additionally, can you please enhance the Gavara page or merge Gavara into Komati article?--Anon=us (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)anon=us

Please comment on Talk:Betsy DeVos

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Betsy DeVos. Legobot (talk) 04:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)