User talk:NJInce
At Joseph Brant, you added that he died at "Burlington Beach", but you did not add a source to support this, and Burlington Beach is not mentioned in the article. Could you explain? Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- In the subsection "Death" the article states: "Joseph Brant died in his house at the head of Lake Ontario (site of what would become the city of Burlington, Ontario)." This location was historically called Burlington Beach, since the city of Burlington did not exist at the time. The hyperlink I included for Burlington Beach links to the Burlington, Ontario page.
- I looked for a source online stating that Brant died at "Burlington Beach" but did not find one. This source says he died at "Wellington Square (now Burlington)". What is your source to support that Brant died at "Burlington Beach"? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Joseph Brant called his home at the Head of Lake Ontario (today known as Burlington) "The Beach" (see for example Kelsay, Isabel Thompson (1984). Joseph Brant, 1743–1807, Man of Two Worlds. Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press. ISBN 978-0-8156-0182-1). He was the first resident in this area other than the Mississauga, so it wasn't known as anything other than "The Beach," except when it was called "Burlington Beach" to signify its proximity to Burlington Bay. Wellington Square was only founded three years after Brant died, see [1]. I am not stating anything that is not already stated in the article. The place I said he died is the same place as in the section "Death." I am only clarifying that in 1807 the name for this place was Burlington Beach, while still linking to the modern community of Burlington. If this explanation does not satisfy you, please do not contact me here, but rather make your own independent edit on the article.
- In other words, "Joseph Brant died in his house at the head of Lake Ontario (site of what would become the city of Burlington, Ontario)", as was stated in the article. The terms, "the head of Lake Ontario", "The Beach", and "Burlington Bay"--as were mentioned in the Kelsay book--weren't official "places", but words made up by Brant to describe the un-named place he was living. Calling it "Wellington Square" is also not correct--as you've pointed out--because this place was not yet named that. Would you agree then, that calling this place by the unofficial Brant-invented place name "The Beach" is also not correct (because it really isn't a place)? Magnolia677 (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Excellent. This conversation feels more productive now. Burlington Beach actually was widely adopted as the name for the the place where Brant built his house. See for example Smith's 1846 Gazetteer of Upper Canada, or see this [2]. It was widely used in British military dispatches during the War of 1812, as was Burlington Heights for the elevated spit of land at the opposite end of the bay. Unfortunately, Burlington Beach is not used much presently as a geographical expression, and a Google search will just turn up beaches in Burlington. Some variant on The Head-of-the-Lake as the location of Brant's death would be correct but not very specific, as this could refer to anywhere in what is today the greater Hamilton region. My solution to this problem was to give as his place of death a toponym someone in the early 19th century would have used (including Brant himself), but then to also provide the hyperlink to the present day city of Burlington within the boundaries of which his death took place. This may be an overly creative way to maintain historical accuracy while also helping contemporary readers, but I do not see an alternative solution. Creating a Wikipedia page for Burlington Beach (which is a major geographic feature in Lake Ontario) might be helpful in the long term, but is not an immediate fix.
- Ah, ok. Well sourced indeed. The problem now is that "Burlington Beach" leads to an article that never once mentions "Burlington Beach", so it should not link there, per MOS:LINKCLARITY. Are you able to create a redirect? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I can understand that a link shouldn't lead to an article that doesn't contain the words. No, I haven't made a redirect before. Perhaps the easiest solution is just to the place of death back to Burlington and be done with it. 21:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Fixed. Cheers. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I can understand that a link shouldn't lead to an article that doesn't contain the words. No, I haven't made a redirect before. Perhaps the easiest solution is just to the place of death back to Burlington and be done with it. 21:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, ok. Well sourced indeed. The problem now is that "Burlington Beach" leads to an article that never once mentions "Burlington Beach", so it should not link there, per MOS:LINKCLARITY. Are you able to create a redirect? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Excellent. This conversation feels more productive now. Burlington Beach actually was widely adopted as the name for the the place where Brant built his house. See for example Smith's 1846 Gazetteer of Upper Canada, or see this [2]. It was widely used in British military dispatches during the War of 1812, as was Burlington Heights for the elevated spit of land at the opposite end of the bay. Unfortunately, Burlington Beach is not used much presently as a geographical expression, and a Google search will just turn up beaches in Burlington. Some variant on The Head-of-the-Lake as the location of Brant's death would be correct but not very specific, as this could refer to anywhere in what is today the greater Hamilton region. My solution to this problem was to give as his place of death a toponym someone in the early 19th century would have used (including Brant himself), but then to also provide the hyperlink to the present day city of Burlington within the boundaries of which his death took place. This may be an overly creative way to maintain historical accuracy while also helping contemporary readers, but I do not see an alternative solution. Creating a Wikipedia page for Burlington Beach (which is a major geographic feature in Lake Ontario) might be helpful in the long term, but is not an immediate fix.
- In other words, "Joseph Brant died in his house at the head of Lake Ontario (site of what would become the city of Burlington, Ontario)", as was stated in the article. The terms, "the head of Lake Ontario", "The Beach", and "Burlington Bay"--as were mentioned in the Kelsay book--weren't official "places", but words made up by Brant to describe the un-named place he was living. Calling it "Wellington Square" is also not correct--as you've pointed out--because this place was not yet named that. Would you agree then, that calling this place by the unofficial Brant-invented place name "The Beach" is also not correct (because it really isn't a place)? Magnolia677 (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Joseph Brant called his home at the Head of Lake Ontario (today known as Burlington) "The Beach" (see for example Kelsay, Isabel Thompson (1984). Joseph Brant, 1743–1807, Man of Two Worlds. Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press. ISBN 978-0-8156-0182-1). He was the first resident in this area other than the Mississauga, so it wasn't known as anything other than "The Beach," except when it was called "Burlington Beach" to signify its proximity to Burlington Bay. Wellington Square was only founded three years after Brant died, see [1]. I am not stating anything that is not already stated in the article. The place I said he died is the same place as in the section "Death." I am only clarifying that in 1807 the name for this place was Burlington Beach, while still linking to the modern community of Burlington. If this explanation does not satisfy you, please do not contact me here, but rather make your own independent edit on the article.
- I looked for a source online stating that Brant died at "Burlington Beach" but did not find one. This source says he died at "Wellington Square (now Burlington)". What is your source to support that Brant died at "Burlington Beach"? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
DYK[edit]
I nominated an article that you wrote for Did you know on the main page - Template:Did you know nominations/Catharine Brant. SL93 (talk) 09:14, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
DYK for Catharine Brant[edit]
On 16 October 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Catharine Brant, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Clan Mother Catharine Brant had the right to nominate the Tekarihogen, the most important civil chief of the Mohawk nation? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Catharine Brant. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Catharine Brant), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
— Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
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