User talk:Narutolovehinata5/Archives/2024
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Happy New Year, Narutolovehinata5!
Narutolovehinata5,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Abishe (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.
Abishe (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
New article create for you
Hi @Narutolovehinata5, please create Japanese voice actress Fūka Izumi she has a two main voice roles: Utena Hiiragi from Anime: Gushing over Magical Girls and Rin Rindō from Anime: Highspeed Etoile. So would like to create the article and submit to did you know article? Source for Fūka Izumi: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=201580 Lovemuhcko (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm currently busy with some real-life work but I can write her up an article once those are done. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Please create the article now! Lovemuhcko (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
2024
Like 2019, remember? Same hall. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The 2023 picture is from the Abel Fest in Köthen, celebrating the tercentenary of Carl Friedrich Abel, a viol virtuoso, composer and concert organiser in London (together with Bach's youngest son), born on 22 December 1723 in Köthen, where the new catalogue of his works was introduced, - my story today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I have a DYK on the Main page, as you know, but my story would be different, about Figaro, - this Figaro. The artist appears privately and in the role. I invite you to take a look, even if it's in German. Same for the conductor whom I can't take a DYK unless I make him a GA. I'll try again with the next singer, probably Cherubino, but the title role would have made more sense. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
On the Main page: the person who made the pictured festival possible --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Invitation to Organize Feminism and Folklore 2024 Writing Competition
Dear Narutolovehinata5/Archives/2024,
Hope you are doing well, Wishing you a Happy New Year!.
We extend a heartfelt invitation to you to organize the Feminism and Folklore 2024 writing competition, which is scheduled to take place from February 1, 2024, to March 31, 2024. This year's edition of Feminism and Folklore will concentrate on feminism, women's issues, and gender-focused topics, aligning with a Wiki Loves Folklore gender gap focus and featuring a folk culture theme on Wikipedia.
This year we have created two new Tools for the Feminism and Folklore project. The tool is called Campwiz. This tool is created by the international Tech team of Wiki Loves Folkore especially crafted for Feminism and Folklore project. The tool works as same as fountain or dashboard but has extra abilities required for jury and submission of articles.
To create a new campaign on Campwiz, organizers to follow these steps:
- Go to the tool link: https://tools.wikilovesfolklore.org/
- Select your wiki on which you want to organize the campaign (enter the name or short code, such as "en" for English Wikipedia).
- Give your campaign a name example "Feminism and Folklore 2024 on English Wikipedia)".
- Select the start and end dates (note: keep your start date as Feb 1 and end date as March 31).
- Provide a description for your campaign (you can briefly describe the campaign in this section).
- Make sure to keep the checkboxes ticked for "Allow users to submit articles that were not created but expanded." if you want to use the campaign for expanded articles also.
- Keep minimum added bytes as 4000 and minimum added words as 400 and click next.
- In the jury section, keep the checkboxes ticked for "Allow jury members to participate in the campaign" and "Prevent jury members from seeing each other's votes." As per your preference.
- Under the jury search box, type the username of your jury and click on the "+" button to add; you can add multiple jury members.
- Click next to review and then click on save.
With this we have also created a Missing article tool. This tool identifies articles in the English Wikipedia that are absent from your native language Wikipedia. You can customize your selection criteria, and our tool will provide you with a table displaying the missing articles along with suggested titles. You also have the option to download the list in both CSV and wikitable formats.
Both tools, the Missing Article Tool and the Campwiz Tool, are now available for public use during the Feminism and Folklore campaign. You can find more information about these tools here: https://tools.wikilovesfolklore.org/
There are also some changes in the rules and criteria's. Please go through the rules below.
- Minimum Length: The expanded or new article should have a minimum of 4000 bytes or 400 words, ensuring sufficient depth and coverage of the chosen topic. The local organizers are free to choose the minimum length criteria as per needs of their local Wikipedia and must be clearly mention on local project page.
- Language Quality: Articles should not be poorly machine-translated, ensuring that language quality and readability are maintained at a high standard.
- Timeline of Creation or Expansion: The article should be created or expanded between 1 February and 31 March, aligning with the specified contest timeline.
- Theme Relevance: Articles should directly address the theme of feminism and folklore, exploring connections between gender, cultural traditions, and intangible heritage.
- No Orphaned Articles: Articles must not be orphaned, meaning they should be linked from at least one other article to ensure visibility within the Wikipedia ecosystem.
- No Copyright violations: There should be no copyright violations, and articles should adhere to local Wikipedia policies on notability, ensuring that the content meets the standards for notability.
- Adequate references and Citations: Each article should include proper references and citations following local Wikipedia policies, ensuring the reliability and credibility of the information presented.
Learn more about the contest details and prizes on our project page here. Should you require any assistance, please feel free to contact us on our meta talk page or via email.
We eagerly anticipate your enthusiastic coordination and participation in Feminism and Folklore 2024.
Thank you and Best wishes,
Feminism and Folklore 2024 International Team
--MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:51, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Happy Birthday!
 | Happy birthday! Hi Narutolovehinata5! On behalf of the Birthday Committee, I'd like to wish you a very happy birthday! Enjoy this special day! The Herald (Benison) (talk) 00:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |  |
Women in Red February 2024
Announcement
Tip of the month:
Other ways to participate:
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--Lajmmoore (talk 20:09, 28 January 2024 (UTC) via MassMessaging
Due diligence
Are you sure this was the correct glyph? DS (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean? The tick? I used it because I couldn't access the Proquest source and was relying on the quotation. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:56, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- a) just to be clear, you knew that your library account includes free ProQuest, right?
- b) I meant, were you intending to indicate that you approved of the hook and felt it was ready to go? DS (talk) 04:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of the first part as I haven't actually been able to try TWL yet, but answer your second question, yes the article/hook is good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:44, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Women in Red March 2024
Announcements
Tip of the month:
Other ways to participate:
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--Lajmmoore (talk 20:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC) via MassMessaging
Organising Feminism and Folklore
Hello Community Organizers,
Thank you for organising Feminism and Folklore writing competition on your wiki. We congratulate you in joining and celebrating our cultural heritage and promoting gender equality on Wikipedia.
To encourage boost for the contributions of the participants, we're offering prizes for Feminism and Folklore local prizes. Each Wikipedia will have three local winners:
- First Prize: $15 USD
- Second Prize: $10 USD
- Best Jury Article: $5 USD
All this will be in gift voucher format only. Kindly inform your local community regarding these prizes and post them on the local project page
The Best Jury Article will be chosen by the jury based on how unique the article is aligned with the theme. The jury will review all submissions and decide the winner together, making sure it's fair. These articles will also be featured on our social media handles.
We're also providing internet and childcare support to the first 50 organizers and Jury members for who request for it. Remember, only 50 organizers will get this support, and it's given on a first-come, first-served basis. The registration form will close after 50 registrations, and the deadline is March 15, 2024. This support is optional and not compulsory, so if you're interested, fill out the form here.
Each organizer/jury who gets support will receive $30 USD in gift voucher format, even if they're involved in more than one wiki. No dual support will be provided if you have signed up in more than one language. This support is meant to appreciate your volunteer support for the contest.
We also invite all organizers and jury members to join us for office hours on Saturday, March 2, 2024. This session will help you understand the jury process for both contests and give you a chance to ask questions. More details are on meta page.
Let's celebrate our different cultures and work towards gender equality on Wikipedia!
Best regards,
Rockpeterson
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
The Brilliant Healer's New Life in the Shadows moved to draftspace
Thanks for your contributions to The Brilliant Healer's New Life in the Shadows. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.
Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. Velella Velella Talk 12:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Women in Red April 2024
Announcements
Tip of the month:
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--Lajmmoore (talk 19:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC) via MassMessaging
New Pages Patrol newsletter April 2024
Hello Narutolovehinata5/Archives,
Backlog update: The October drive reduced the article backlog from 11,626 to 7,609 and the redirect backlog from 16,985 to 6,431! Congratulations to Schminnte, who led with over 2,300 points.
Following that, New Page Patrol organized another backlog drive for articles in January 2024. The January drive started with 13,650 articles and reduced the backlog to 7,430 articles. Congratulations to JTtheOG, who achieved first place with 1,340 points in this drive.
Looking at the graph, it seems like backlog drives are one of the only things keeping the backlog under control. Another backlog drive is being planned for May. Feel free to participate in the May backlog drive planning discussion.
It's worth noting that both queues are gradually increasing again and are nearing 14,034 articles and 22,540 redirects. We encourage you to keep contributing, even if it's just a single patrol per day. Your support is greatly appreciated!
2023 Awards
Onel5969 won the 2023 cup with 17,761 article reviews last year - that's an average of nearly 50/day. There was one Platinum Award (10,000+ reviews), 2 Gold Awards (5000+ reviews), 6 Silver (2000+), 8 Bronze (1000+), 30 Iron (360+) and 70 more for the 100+ barnstar. Hey man im josh led on redirect reviews by clearing 36,175 of them. For the full details, see the Awards page and the Hall of Fame. Congratulations everyone for their efforts in reviewing!
WMF work on PageTriage: The WMF Moderator Tools team and volunteer software developers deployed the rewritten NewPagesFeed in October, and then gave the NewPagesFeed a slight visual facelift in November. This concludes most major work to Special:NewPagesFeed, and most major work by the WMF Moderator Tools team, who wrapped up their major work on PageTriage in October. The WMF Moderator Tools team and volunteer software developers will continue small work on PageTriage as time permits.
Recruitment: A couple of the coordinators have been inviting editors to become reviewers, via mass-messages to their talk pages. If you know someone who you'd think would make a good reviewer, then a personal invitation to them would be great. Additionally, if there are Wikiprojects that you are active on, then you can add a post there asking participants to join NPP. Please be careful not to double invite folks that have already been invited.
Reviewing tip: Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages within their most familiar subjects can use the regularly updated NPP Browser tool.
Reminders:
- You can access live chat with patrollers on the New Pages Patrol Discord.
- Consider adding the project discussion page to your watchlist.
- To opt out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
DYK Check help
Hello! In the past, I have nominating numerous articles for DYK, but have never reviewed any. I wish to learn the review process. I have noticed the DYKcheck script, but I have no idea how to use it. All I have done is added "importScript('User:Shubinator/DYKcheck.js'); //DYKcheck tool" to this page, but I do not know what to do from there. I was wondering if you would be able to help me at all? Thanks. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not really the best person to ask regarding this. Maybe try asking Theleekycauldron for help. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
New article created for you
Hi @Narutolovehinata5 Please create Japanese voice actress Minami Kurisaka, she has a main voice role: Riese from Anime: The Banished Former Hero Lives as He Pleases So would to create the article? Source: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=203668 Lovemuhcko (talk) 13:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Probably too soon to have an article if she's only had one main role so far. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
New page patrol May 2024 Backlog drive
| New Page Patrol | May 2024 Articles Backlog Drive |  |
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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
DYK for Fūka Izumi
On 24 April 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Fūka Izumi, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Fūka Izumi became a voice actress despite initially doubting that she could be one? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Fūka Izumi. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Fūka Izumi), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Your question
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In the Liviu Holender nom, you said that you don't understand why I object to Oper Frankfurt being connected to The Marriage of Figaro, and the discussion is long enough already, so I try here. The opera that Mozart composed is in Italian and the title was Le nozze di Figaro. Oper Frankfurt has given operas in the original language since the 1970s, and has used the original title in announcements and on posters. The references - following - also use the original title. We had two hooks using the original title recently, which is one of the reasons I wasn't happy with ALT5: why mention the same opera three times? A different one seems more interesting to me. For those two hooks, there were more views of the opera than the performer, so I think interest in the opera was there, even with the original title. I'd even claim that a foreign title might be more interesting. Also: Mozart composed only one opera with Figaro in the title, so there could be no confusion with any other. Finally: does it even matter in which opera they hold hands? -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- Here's the thing. There's a guideline, WP:ENGLISH, which states that whenever possible, the subject has to be referred to by the name it's most commonly-used in English. The non-English title is only used if there isn't a commonly-used English title. It's why, for example, the famous ballet is at Swan Lake and not Lebedinoye Ozero (which is a redirect), even if the latter is the original title and what Russian ballet companies would use. Perhaps this is why for other opera-related articles, the non-English title was just fine: it's simply because they aren't commonly known in English. Figaro, however, is not the case. If Figaro's non-English title was allowed before, it could simply be because it wasn't considered an issue until now. Consensus can change, and what was okay in the past may not necessarily always be okay as consensus and circumstances change.
- I understand that you care deeply about these operas' non-English titles, but personal feelings don't always match guidelines and policies. I for example prefer calling anime by their Japanese titles outside of Wikipedia, but given guidelines I call them by their English titles here even if I disagree with them. For example, the series Meitantei Conan wouldn't be called that in English despite being official: it would either be the official title Case Closed, or the more common translation Detective Conan.
- Given 4meter4 was the reviewer and the one who brought up the issue, I think he might be able to explain WP:ENGLISH better than I can, but those are just my two cents. In any case, having such a strong objection to the hook just because it uses the English title makes little sense on-Wiki because if anything, using the English title is what the guidelines suggest. There's no good WP:IAR reason why this should be any different other than personal feelings. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:13, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- See, I understood what you anmissed verb d 4meter4 were saying, and I gave a solution: omit "Oper Frankfurt" then. I have no idea why so much typing was used instead of that simple solution. I understand that the Metropolitan Opera would play it in Italian but do the advertizing using The Marriage of Figaro. The Oper Frankfurt doesn't, and to suggest they might is misleading our readers. You won't get me behind that. - Do you suggest, btw, that we should use Mr. John instead of Don Giovanni, and whatever in English instead of Così fan tutte? Why would our dear readers recognize those titles but not Figaro? - All Bach cantata titles are in German, - I think today of Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen, BWV 12, performed the third Sunday after Easter of 1714, and again 1724. Almost all opera titles are in the original language, all by Wagner, all by Verdi, - why not all by Mozart I don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- That suggestion makes even less sense. Removing Oper Frankfurt from the hook because they don't use the English title? That makes no sense. That would be like saying a hook about Swan Lake being performed at the Bolshoi Theatre can't use the theater's name in the hook because their materials in Russian use the Russian rather than the English title. I am not sure how saying Figaro being performed at the Oper Frankfurt but not in a non-English title would be misleading. Does it really matter what the title they use is, if the opera itself is still the same?
- The point is, The Marriage of Figaro is still the name it's most commonly recognized as in English, and per WP:USEENGLISH we have to use that in articles and content. Don Giovanni is called that even in English, not Mr. John, and that's why it's okay to use Don Giovanni in English. The same can be said about Bach's works, or indeed many many works of European music. Für Elise is also commonly referred to as that even in English, and that's why it's located at Für Elise and not "For Elise". The same cannot be said about The Marriage of Figaro and that is why we use the English rather than the German or Italian titles for it. Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries is called that in English and on Wikipedia instead of "Walkürenritt" or "Ritt der Walküren" for similar reasons, even if the actual opera its from is still called Die Walküre even in English too.
- If the other issue here is the public being inconsistent on whether to use the English names or the European names, we cannot do anything about it. Wikipedia follows naming conventions and what's common, it does not prescribe them. It's why the country is still called Turkey here and not Türkiye even if the country officially calls itself the latter now and some organizations have followed suit; it's because in practice, Turkey is still the most commonly-used name among the public. WP:COMMMONNAME goes into detail about this too, as well as MOS:TITLE#Translations. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree, because I don't agree that we have to use the same name for something in all contexts. Let's take a woman who gets married and then uses her married name. Fanny Mendelssohn became Fanny Hensel. The article name can be only one, but - depending on the context - both will be used, in some cases even necessarily so. To call her Hensel when she is still a little girl is wrong. To call her Mendelssohn as a publishing musician when the printed music clearly says Hensel is wrong. Can we agree that far? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think you are understanding the point here. The point is simply that if a work of media has a common or official English name, that is the name we use on-Wiki. The parallel you gave about personal names does not apply here because that's a completely different circumstance (i.e. when to use maiden names and when to use married names). As I mentioned earlier, if an opera is better known under its original title (like Die Walküre) we can use that, but if an opera is better known by an English title (like Figaro), we use that no matter what title opera houses in Europe or elsewhere call it. That is why, for hooks and articles, it is not recommended to call Figaro by its Italian title other than in the lede section of our article on Figaro. That is also why for some hooks, it's okay to use the untranslated title and why it is not necessarily an issue with other operas. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't say this is parallel. I try to find common ground. Can we agree that to call Fanny Hensel as a girl is wrong and to call her Mendelssohn as a publishing musician is wrong? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, because that's exactly what MOS:SURNAME says what we should do. However, this is again a completely different circumstance from the Figaro scenario. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I am happy about a little bit of understanding. Let's see what else, perhaps. I don't know if you were around in 2012 when we had a weeks-long debate if Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14 should have Moonlight Sonata for the the article title. Can we agree that - although the nickname is quite common - it would be wrong to say that Beethoven composed the Moonlight Sonata? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to ask me here. Are you trying to tell me that works of music should only ever be referred to by their "official" or "original" names and not their common ones? As for your question: I disagree. Whether you call it Piano Sonata No. 14 or Moonlight Sonata, they refer to the same work. It's just a different name for the same song. Saying "Beethoven did not compose the Moonlight Sonata" is simply wrong because he did compose it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Now we are getting closer to seeing where the problem is. Moonlight Sonata is a nickname the piece received from some critic, after the composer's death. Beethoven had no moonlight in mind when he composed it, it's one person's later POV that's stuck with the poor thing. I am not saying a piece can not be referred to by other names, - actually quite the opposite. But to insert a later critic's opinion into saying anything (composition, first performance, publication) that happened before the nickname was even coined seems historically wrong to me, and quite similar to calling a woman her married name before she even married. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- In short: can we agree that a name should not be used for things that happened before it was given? - Today: a sad task - memory of Andrew Davis - turned into entertainment, YouTube at the bottom of his article, one of him conducting a spirited piece at the Proms, the other an interview reflecting his work in Glyndebourne which may be a short introduction to opera). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The answer to your question is that it's on a case-by-case basis thing. There is no single right or wrong answer. There are times when it would be preferrable to refer to something in-article by what the subject was called at the time (for example, calling Hillary Clinton "Rodham" during the time she wasn't married yet). There are, however, times when it's better to call them by a later or "more common" name (for example, Ancient Egypt wasn't called that during its period, but that's the term that we use on Wikipedia to refer to that civilization). I'm not sure if I'm able to express my thought well so I'll ask some help from Launchballer or Epicgenius to perhaps explain WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME in a more understandable way. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping Narutolovehinata5. Gerda, to give an example of what NLH5 is describing with regards to USEENGLISH/COMMONNAME, let's talk about the name of English Wikipedia articles on Germany and China. Technically, the name Bundesrepublik Deutschland would be the official name for Germany in its native language, and 中华人民共和国 would be the official name for China in its native language. However, neither of these countries are located at these titles on Wikipedia. First, neither of these names is in English (let alone the shortened alternatives Deutschland and 中国). Second, neither of these names is the common name, either in English or their respective native languages. Wikipedia's article title policy, WP:AT, prescribes that we should use the common English-language name of the topic if an English name exists. So for example, the article on Germany would be called "Germany" because that is the name that's most used by English media; "Federal Republic of Germany" is not as commonly used, and neither is Deutschland. Unfortunately, not many people are going to know either of these names unless they (1) know about Germany's official name or (2) speak German. The same thing applies for China, any other country, and any other topic in a foreign language.By extension, it seems like a common English name exists for Le nozze di Figaro. Though that name may be the original name in Italian, people regularly call it "The Marriage of Figaro" in English, and hence WP:AT prescribes that the article should use the common English name, "The Marriage of Figaro". – Epicgenius (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- The answer to your question is that it's on a case-by-case basis thing. There is no single right or wrong answer. There are times when it would be preferrable to refer to something in-article by what the subject was called at the time (for example, calling Hillary Clinton "Rodham" during the time she wasn't married yet). There are, however, times when it's better to call them by a later or "more common" name (for example, Ancient Egypt wasn't called that during its period, but that's the term that we use on Wikipedia to refer to that civilization). I'm not sure if I'm able to express my thought well so I'll ask some help from Launchballer or Epicgenius to perhaps explain WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME in a more understandable way. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to ask me here. Are you trying to tell me that works of music should only ever be referred to by their "official" or "original" names and not their common ones? As for your question: I disagree. Whether you call it Piano Sonata No. 14 or Moonlight Sonata, they refer to the same work. It's just a different name for the same song. Saying "Beethoven did not compose the Moonlight Sonata" is simply wrong because he did compose it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I am happy about a little bit of understanding. Let's see what else, perhaps. I don't know if you were around in 2012 when we had a weeks-long debate if Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14 should have Moonlight Sonata for the the article title. Can we agree that - although the nickname is quite common - it would be wrong to say that Beethoven composed the Moonlight Sonata? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, because that's exactly what MOS:SURNAME says what we should do. However, this is again a completely different circumstance from the Figaro scenario. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't say this is parallel. I try to find common ground. Can we agree that to call Fanny Hensel as a girl is wrong and to call her Mendelssohn as a publishing musician is wrong? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think you are understanding the point here. The point is simply that if a work of media has a common or official English name, that is the name we use on-Wiki. The parallel you gave about personal names does not apply here because that's a completely different circumstance (i.e. when to use maiden names and when to use married names). As I mentioned earlier, if an opera is better known under its original title (like Die Walküre) we can use that, but if an opera is better known by an English title (like Figaro), we use that no matter what title opera houses in Europe or elsewhere call it. That is why, for hooks and articles, it is not recommended to call Figaro by its Italian title other than in the lede section of our article on Figaro. That is also why for some hooks, it's okay to use the untranslated title and why it is not necessarily an issue with other operas. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree, because I don't agree that we have to use the same name for something in all contexts. Let's take a woman who gets married and then uses her married name. Fanny Mendelssohn became Fanny Hensel. The article name can be only one, but - depending on the context - both will be used, in some cases even necessarily so. To call her Hensel when she is still a little girl is wrong. To call her Mendelssohn as a publishing musician when the printed music clearly says Hensel is wrong. Can we agree that far? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- See, I understood what you anmissed verb d 4meter4 were saying, and I gave a solution: omit "Oper Frankfurt" then. I have no idea why so much typing was used instead of that simple solution. I understand that the Metropolitan Opera would play it in Italian but do the advertizing using The Marriage of Figaro. The Oper Frankfurt doesn't, and to suggest they might is misleading our readers. You won't get me behind that. - Do you suggest, btw, that we should use Mr. John instead of Don Giovanni, and whatever in English instead of Così fan tutte? Why would our dear readers recognize those titles but not Figaro? - All Bach cantata titles are in German, - I think today of Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen, BWV 12, performed the third Sunday after Easter of 1714, and again 1724. Almost all opera titles are in the original language, all by Wagner, all by Verdi, - why not all by Mozart I don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't know why you make things so complicated, instead of just saying yes or no to a simple question. Some thoughts in reply to both comments above:
- We should distinguish more between article title here and reference to an article in a different article, or a DYK hook, there.
- I am rather sure that a move request of Mozart's work to the original title would be successful, and if not the first time, then the second, compare Talk:Der fliegende Holländer, but I'd like to spare everyone the trouble.
- I believe that Le nozze di Figaro will be understood even by a lay reader because the term Figaro is unique in Mozart opera titles.
- I believe that the connection that this is (still) commonly known as The Marriage of Figaro is elegantly made by a piped link, while I think we should not leave any reader alone with an English title that they will not find in any of the sources.
- Oper Frankfurt serves the original intentions of the composer by playing and announcing this work in Italian, and an English title in the context of this German opera house looks absurd to me.
- I agree that there are situations when the English title is the right thing to use.
- Finally: the nomination still needs an independent reviewer for a different hook, - perhaps you could be the one, Epicgenius? We had an approved hook, and instead of going ahead with it even if its boring to some, would have spared us a lot of arguing, (ab)using the energies of three reviewers already. - Once I'm here: I find the hook below boring, sorry. Taking up a profession inspite of initial doubts can probably be said about 20 percent of people in all professions and is nothing specific to this artist. Why would I click? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Gerda, once again, hooks are intended towards readers, not the nominator. What may be a boring hook to you may be very interesting to a layperson, and vice-versa. However, on DYK, it is the readers' interests that are supreme, and when we write hooks, it is they who we keep in mind. Making the nichest hook as possible like you often do may result in hooks that appeal to you specifically, but that goes against the whole spirit of DYK. We already had a very long RfC which, by overwhelming consensus, established that hooks must be likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest.
- In the case of opera hooks, the best hooks are those that even someone who knows nothing about opera will find interesting and likely to read more. A hook about how a certain opera performer performed a role at an opera they'd never heard of might appeal to you, but it would likely just confuse the reader and make them tune out. Hook views aren't everything of course, but the fact that such hooks consistently do very poorly among our readers shows that said approach isn't working. And it isn't just me who has noticed this: multiple editors over the years have expressed concerns about those hooks. Again, I have to emphasize: hooks should be written to appeal to the reader, not the nominator. I understand your goal is to educate people about opera and make them learn about opera performers and the operas in general, but there are more effective ways to do that, and your current practice is simply doing more harm than good.
- As for your last comment: we already had a perfectly usable hook in ALT5/ALT5a. It had already been approved, and had you not objected to it, it's very likely the hook would have already been on the Main Page by now. Indeed, several times, if you had only agreed to alternative hooks by editors other than you, the arguing and tiring discussions could have been avoided. Again, maybe 4meter4 or Launchballer can explain it better than I ever could, but it may be time to drop the stick regarding Figaro and just accept a hook that uses the common, English name instead of going against our guidelines. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is not an answer to my points. We are not talking hooks, nor interesting. I don't want the Figaro hook, - I think the "banned by the Nazis"-hook is stronger, more unusual and more interesting. Here, I came only to see where we have common ground, and I am used to waiting for several years, such as between the first move discussion for the "Flying Dutchman" and the second. There is no stick, just curiosity. How about that little bit of AGF? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)