User talk:Nohat/archive 2005-08-08

Black Book

Nohat, why did you delete that page? Was it listed on vfd? It was a project page and I'm sure it should be there. Whether your remarks on Talk:Kiev are biased or not is another issue, but I believe that you should've at least consulted the author of that project before you deleted it. Please be so kind as to explain why was the page deleted. Halibutt 23:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I decided to start that archive to avoid listing all of the users involved on RfC or any other page. I simply wanted to keep the things civil and canalized, without having to resort to all the painful dispute resolution process, accusations and so on. Your reaction was certainly not what I expected. Halibutt 23:21, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

A "Black Book" which exists solely to vilify users who you disagree with consistutes personal attacks. The page was deleted per Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. If you have a problem with a user's behavior, the proper course of action is to list that user on Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Compiling a list of users who have said things you disagree with, particularly if that list is not kept in user space, and demanding they apologize and rescind their comments in some kind of kangaroo court is totally unacceptable. The dispute resolution process exists for a reason, and creating an end-run around it is neither appropriate nor warranted. Nohat 23:25, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nohat, please, calm down. Nobody has nothing against you and nobody is demanding anything from you. We're all friends here. Witkacy noted that that you assumed those who oppose you are nationalists, which in where I live is rather a serious offence. Personally I'm pretty sure you meant nothing wrong, but still, your remarks could be treated as biased.

Anyway, do you really believe that starting an ArbCom or RfC every time someone assumes bad faith is a good idea? That's what I would call escalation of the conflict. And that's what we're trying to avoid. Of course, if you insist Witkacy could do that, but perhaps there is a way to make you cooperate? Halibutt 04:27, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think I have done anything wrong, and I don't believe this situation merits further comment by any of the parties involved. I'm not the one who created a "black book" for publically harassing anyone who says something that might be construed as insulting to Poles. That's escalation of conflict.

As for the issue at question, don't expect me to rescind any statements I made about nationalism, because that's exactly what was going on at the Kiev article. I called Witkacy on his disingenuousness and it smarted. I see no need to make concessions for his wounded pride. Hopefully next time everyone will follow the Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point guidelines, as I suggested previously.

As for RfC, I heartily encourage Witkacy or anyone else to start one against me. Then it will become apparent to everyone that this whole thing is a farce. Nohat 05:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey no problem! We Fake Ivy alums have to stick together! --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 07:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seriously, you could have always ask. I'm sure pretty everyone here would offer you a decent translation in not time just. As to the discussions in non-English... Seriously, I don't see the point in talking in English when the whole point is to communicate quickly and efficiently (and English is not the best language to do that). If you believe that the comments in our private namespace should concern you then you can always ask for their translation. However, there's no rule forcing us to talk in English exclusively, just like there's no rule forcing the admins to respond to the people they block or forcing all decisions to be discussed in WP and not via external means (mail, IRC & mailing list). Given all that, our talk pages are much more accessible then admins' mailboxes. You can always ask for translation. And all Wikipedians can contribute, they can join the discussion at any time and request the translation be provided. If you believe that such discussions in Polish are only breeding animosity and distrust, then there is a serious problem with your attitude and not with the discussions themselves. Why exactly do you assume bad will?

As to the whole BB business, I still believe that such a page is needed. Too many a time have I heard such views promoted here on WP and nothing happened. You can easliy assume bad faith or nationalism of a Pole and noone will ever react. If you said the same of a person, say, from Germany or Israel or UK, the reaction of the community would be imminent. Unfortunately, listing all such cases in RfC is not a good option either, but if the community wants that then it's fine with me. BTW, just take a look at my user page and the list of offenses listed there. Some of these were used by wikipedia admins, other by anon users. Perhaps I'll dig out the list of people who have ever offended me on WP basing solely on my nationality and list them all to RfC. Neither the WP would benefit from it nor would it make them reconsider their views (in fact it would only support the thesis that Poles overreact...), but if people insist that is the best option...

As to your presence on the BB, I believe that you shouldn't have been listed there and that Witkacy killed the project by using it to his own aims rather than to the good of the community. The range of your behaviour included personal remarks, assumptions of bad will, lack of cooperativeness and abuse of admin privileges, but certainly not anti-polonism. Halibutt 02:11, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

"Moral fortitude"

You're welcome. Sorry, that just made me laugh.  :) RickK 05:15, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Icelandic Wikipeda logo

Hi, if you could upload a new logo for the Icelandic Wikipedia where the subtext reads Frjálsa alfræðiritið rather than the current Frjálsa alfræðiorðabókin that would be great, also, the current logo is a bit too high up, there's a space between the top of the image and the start of the globe but there isn't for the current is. logo.

See meta:Wikipedia_logo_in_each_language#Needing_attention —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 17:33, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)

English on Polish Collaboration

I've been lobbying for English for several days now and I've had some success. I appreciate your intent, and I ment no malice in my comment on the talk page. So far Piotrus and SylwiaS have started using English on the board, and I'm sure others will join soon.- JCarriker 19:03, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts. There seems to have been some kind of misunderstanding that the Polish Wikipedians' notice board is somehow the private domain of Polish Wikipedians. I hope that we can get all the discussions not in English translated eventually. Nohat 19:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please check your e-mail. -JCarriker 16:30, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

E-mail again! :-)-JCarriker 17:02, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

If you wanted to reach me by e-mail, please resend. I have switched preferences so I now have an e-mail address that actually works. Balcer 17:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have pulled out of the Polish Collab effort I'm tired of the hostile attitude of certain users. As for the feelers I put out on the potential compromise we talked about me brokering, I'm not sure I particularly care to go through with it, but if you still want to I will. Good luck with your efforts there. I explained my reasons for leaving more indepthly on Pitorus' talk page, if you're interested. -JCarriker 16:22, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Azerbaijani literature

Hi Nohat, I noticed that you protected this page. I've been tasked with cleaning it up, so wanted to inquire about its status. Thanks. · Katefan0^(scribble) 01:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, it's no problem! Thanks so much. Now I just have to figure out how to clean it up... :/ · Katefan0^(scribble) 01:45, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Beautiful cats

I have a British shorthair.

Vowel references

I'm assuming this is the case, but can you confirm that the references you added to the Vowel article have been used to add or fact check material in the article? Direct citations of the most important points in the article to a good source is even better of course. If you did that, you'd be my hero. - Taxman ^Talk

I'm planning on adding specific footnotes to particular pages over the next few days. Nohat 20:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LEGO

Did you remove the protection (and the "vprotected" template) deliberately, or was it the result of a bug? I can't see any explanation, so I'm assuming that it was the latter. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 28 June 2005 16:08 (UTC)

See the unprotection log and the article's talk page. Nohat 28 June 2005 16:15 (UTC)

IPA chars

Hey Nohat, I see you've been changing entities to IPA characters now that they're supported. Is there any way we can get IPA characters added to the "insert box" located at the bottom of every edit page? --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 29 June 2005 05:56 (UTC)

Hey Nohat, I've given up reverting the anon's reversions to entities in light of this comment from Phil Boswell and the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Use of unicode within articles. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 1 July 2005 07:12 (UTC)

If UTF-8 characters are good enough for every other Wikimedia Wiki, then they're good enough for en.wikipedia, as far as I'm concerned. :-) Nohat 1 July 2005 07:14 (UTC)

Well, I agree, but it's not worth getting into a lame edit war over. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 1 July 2005 07:24 (UTC)

Wikipedia Logo

1) I was asked to contact this page regarding some information by the support people on this site. Could you kindly advise me,which programme was used to create and represent the letters on a jigsaw globe in the logo?

2)On another point, I was looking at a screensaver at www.3planesoft.com .The one with the 3D mechanical clock. Can anyone suggest which software was used ot design this?The reason is, I wasnt to create a similar graphic for a solar system,showing the revolutions of the planets and their orbits.I would then want to rotate the graphic to be able to view it from different angles.Does anyone have any suggestions how to do this, or advice pls.

A2

IPA template

Now that en.wikipedia.org is fully Unicode, the {{IPA}} template shouldn't be required. Well, at least Wiktionary (which was UTF-8 long before the English Wikipedia) survives without it, though I once accidentally added it, not knowing that it was UTF-8. --/ɛvɪs/ /tɑːk/ /kɑntɹɪbjuʃənz/ June 30, 2005 00:17 (UTC)

Entities ARE safer than Characters

Who made this silly decision and where? Entities are safer than characters due to the way that some browsers handle these characters. Wikipedia is for everyone, NOT a select few.

Some browsers are unable to understand the characters to such an extent that, instead of simply preserving them during an edit operation, they replace them with gibberish; this is why HTML entities, which are entirely written in ASCII, are preferable in may if not cases. From HTML entities

Well, if that is true, then I am fighting a losing battle and accept it, and I'll also give up reverting pages. When I do edit here though, I WILL use entities rather than charaters and it will be up to you lot to change them. I should also mention that even though your intentions are good, a lot of people still use out dated computers and OS's which will screw up the character display when they edit and save pages.

- Bob 1 July 2005 17:21 (UTC)

Protection

Hey Nohat. I and several other editors have been involved in a particularly frustrating disagreement with another user (Benjamin Gatti) over the article Price-Anderson Act. I really think it would benefit from a cooling off period, and several other editors agree. So far no admin has seen the requeston RFPP. I know you've been involved in protecting articles in the past, and wondered if you would take a look at the request and see if you think it's warranted. I'd appreciate it, even if you disagree. Thanks much · Katefan0^(scribble) July 3, 2005 14:13 (UTC)

your webpage offline

nothat.net not working

Help desk wikiproject

I have created a new Wikiproject which aims to bring computer veterans and people who need help with software tools they use on Wikipedia together. I'm writing this to you because I saw you on the bot list and wanted to know if you would be willing to help. There is already an open case: WikiProject help desk/20050702 Dmcdevit. The Windows tool that Dmcdevit uses to perform Transwikis has broken since the software upgrade. Triddle July 6, 2005 22:31 (UTC)

Voiced palatal implosive vs. palatal ejective

You used the same symbol for these two different consonants. That symbol, /ʄ/, represents only the voiced palatal implosive. Could you tell me what the correct symbol for the palatal ejective is? Denelson83 21:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed there should not have been an article palatal ejective, at least not one automatically generated by NohatBot. The information that was there was a duplicate of the information on voiced palatal implosive. I moved palatal ejective to palatal implosive, and deleted the content to make it into a redirect to voiced palatal implosive. I also deleted the redirect at palatal ejective. If there is a such a sound attested, an article about it will have to be made from scratch, because the information that was there was wrong. Nohat 21:09, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I just created a new article palatal ejective. According to Ladefoged and Maddieson, The Sounds of the World's Languages, p. 79, the sound is attested in Kwakw'ala, Acoma, Bella Coola, and Jaqaru. I didn't mention that in the article, though, because I just followed velar ejective as a guide, and velar ejective doesn't mention languages in which that sound is attested either. I still need a png image of cʼ and an ogg file of someone making the sound. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 14:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom status

We really need to know if you plan to return the ArbCom. Jimbo is planing on appointing interim replacements for some other members so if you want to step down, then now is the time to say so. --mav 02:56, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Articles you protected on June 6

I unprotected the Turk article, seing that it had been locked up for almost 40 days and someone wanted to edit it. But looking at the protection log I see that you protected a bunch of articles back in early June and many of them are still locked. Is this due to some arb-com decision on the Turk-Azeri fight or something? Or have you just forgot about it? The vprotected tag is/was missing, and many of the pages aren't listed on Wikipedia:Protected page either, so I don't know what to make of it and thought I shuld ask before I go ahead and unprotect the rest. I think 40 days of vprotection is too long, this being a wiki after all. Shanes 15:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I thought I had unprotected them all. Oh well. Thanks for unprotecting them for me. Nohat 18:49, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

pronunciation of "natick"

Hi Nohat, I live around Natick, Massachusetts and I've noticed some subtlety in its pronunciation. You are correct that it's "NAY-tick" rather than "NAT-ick". However, the "t" at the beginning of "tick" is hardly pronounced at all (at least the way people around here usually say it). I don't know anything about linguistics and pronunciation, can you tell me the name of the difference I am trying to describe? Thanks Dmharvey File:User dmharvey sig.png Talk 16:00, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

It's called flapping, and native speakers of American English do it automatically. T sounds are pronounced kind of like D sounds when the T sound comes at the beginning of a syllable that is not stressed, like the 'tick' in Natick. The same thing happens in many common words, like psychotic, patriotic, genetic, etc. Cheers!

cool thanks Dmharvey File:User dmharvey sig.png Talk 17:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I find it Interesting to read the above about "T". I like to mention that in Tamil, there are two different phonemes of "t" that are part of two different groups. The groups are; "a kind of t found in Tamil and Indic languages" and "R" found in Tamil and European languages. If you imagin T1, and T2 as the one you are researching, then there are t0 and R0 as the bases. The T2 would be when the toung is at the back pointing upward at the place of articulation of R, while T1 would be keeping the toung in the front at the place of articulation of t. (if you want to know more about the "t" (not T), then ask an Indic person to pronounce raga properly (taga) and not as Raga)! So there are four related phonemes eminates from two places of articulation, all seems related!!!

LOGO Wikipédia

<in french>Quelle police d'écriture est utilisée pour le logo Wikipédia ?
<~in english>Which font is use for the wikipedia logo ?

VIGNERON 17:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It's Hoefler Text Roman Small Caps. See meta:Logo. Nohat 17:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

What operating systems is this font avalible on? I've been unable to find it for X11. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:23, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It comes free with all versions of Mac OS X. One can purchase the fonts in Postscript format from the foundry [1], and they can be used anywhere Postscript fonts can be used. Nohat 22:43, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom status - again

Please state if/when you plan to become active again on the Arbitration Committee ASAP. Jimbo is going to appoint interim members as soon as this Friday so we need to tell him how many to appoint. --mav 23:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't have immediate plans to become active again. Nohat 23:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Would you like to resign effective the day a replacement is seated? Or should the seat remain in limbo? --mav 00:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. What do you think I should do? Nohat 00:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd prefer you updated your status at Arbitration Committee to 'Away' with a time range when you will become active again. You must have some idea (1 month, 2...). --mav 00:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for updating your status. I'm sorry to hear that we will be losing you. :( --mav

I wish I could stay, but I find the current arbcom process to be not conducive to getting work done, at least not for me. Nohat 00:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia logo: Derivative works

Is it allowed to create derivative works based on the Wikipedia logo? If it is, what license should derivative works be released under? Please see here and here. We have been pointed to meta:Talk:Logo, but the Permissions statement there apparently refers to an earlier logo. Thanks in advance. — KovacsUr 09:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

moved pdf to commons

hi nohat, i moved your pdf Image:NewIPAchart.pdf to commons: commons:Image:NewIPAchart.pdf. --213.209.83.204 15:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedia logo

Hi could you please help us Swedes and upload a new logo with some changes to the subtext. Instead of Den Fria Encyklopedin it should be Den fria encyklopedin.

See also meta:Wikipedia_logo_in_each_language#Needing_attention /Thank you - Mason

• I noticed that there are several other languages in which the capitalization in the text and on the logo differ (Spanish, for example). Also Polish is apparently incorrectly capitalized, according to a Polish informant of mine (he's not a native speaker though, but should know better than many native speakers I guess. :-) I added a comment about auditing capitalization to the "Needing attention" box. -- era --193.110.109.24 06:34, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration

Hi Nohat - I've just mailed you about an urgent arbitration ml matter, please can you let me know if you didn't get it. Thanks -- sannse (talk) 22:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Errors in your IPA chart reconstructions

Hi again, Nohat. The following images you created have a common error in them:

• Image:NewIPAchart.pdf
• Image:Ipa-chart-all-1000px.png
• Image:Ipa-chart-consonants-pulmonic.png

The palatal trill and palatal tap/flap positions are shaded (denoting impossible articulations), when they really should not be. The velar trill and tap/flap articulations have been judged impossible, while the palatal trill and tap/flap have not. Could you please correct this?

 Denelson83  21:41, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

C Sharp

Hi there - in fact, the article name for C# is C Sharp, so you added a redirect instead. :-) GreenReaper 17:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

This is because I moved this back. Please see Talk: C Sharp. I strongly oppose your changes which replace the # character with the musical note sharp character. I understand that this symbol is more correct, but because the character is not rendered by the browsers of most of our readers (who use IE), these readers are confused and given an impression of low-quality. For the same reason I have argued against the use of other characters such as ∪, ⊆, and so on in math articles. We must value the article's value to the readership over other measures of quality. Deco 21:12, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Salsa

If I lived in a place where I could buy salsa in plastic tubs (not to mention real masa tortillas, instead of those rubber things), I would not have put in "bottled." Good catch. Gracias. Slightly weepy, as I'm eating El Paso tonight, --Mothperson cocoon 22:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC) (oh, it's not that bad, but it sure isn't the real thing)

VfD you may be interested in

Check out the VfD going on over User:Witkacy/Black Book. Tomer ^TALK 23:04, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Apology

Hi again, Nohat. Although I disagree with your position on the use of extended characters, I just wanted to apologise for being so forceful, when I know you're only trying to do what you believe is best for the encyclopedia. I can say in all honesty that I hope that widespread use of new browsers/browser versions will obviate any need for further disagreement. Who knows, maybe one day we'll be able to replace those horrible math graphics with MathML too.</wistful> Deco 05:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It's OK. I can be petulant, stubborn, and obstinate too. Usually when I realize I've gone too far I just leave the discussion and move on. No hard feelings, honest! Eventually we'll move that article to its proper place at C♯. I think that OS and browser makers aren't taking seriously the task of putting lots of Unicode support, especially for obscure pieces of Unicode, into their products. Wikipedia, as one of the web's most-visited sites has quite a bit of power to coerce OS and browser makers to include as much Unicode support in the default installs of their systems as possible. Surely the number of users who complain to Microsoft etc. that IE doesn't display many Wikipedia pages correctly is nonzero and rising. Obviously we need to temper how much Unicode we put into pages with how much it affects usability, but I'm of the mind of erring on the side of using more Unicode, so as to drive user demand to support it. C♯ was kind of on the cusp for me; that's why I kind of gave up arguing. Nohat 06:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Ithaca

Out of curiosity, what brought a quick and sudden interest in this article?

I don't think "quick and sudden" accurately characterize my interest in the article. I have contribued more than 8% of the edits to the article, starting in January 2004. Nohat 03:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)