User talk:Rjlanc

Charles Murchison (physician)

I have reverted your change to Charles Murchison (physician) since the cited source (Dictionary of National Biography) explicitly states 'cousin'. If you have a more trustworthy reliable source then please feel free to reinsert your change, but be sure to reference the source in the article. Cheers. Jan1naD ^{(talk • contrib)} 09:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The information I have found on Genealogy sites shows Charles Murchison's father as Alexander Murchison and mother as Mary Copland, daughter of the Prof of Natural Philosophy, Patrick Copland of Aberdeen and Marischal, for whom there is no wiki page yet. The parents of Alexander Murchison are given as Kenneth Murchison and Barbara Mackenzie. These are the same parents as for Roderick, so Charles's father Alexander is a Brother of Roderick. This makes Charles a nephew of Roderick not a cousin. Not the first time I have found family connections incorrectly reported in DNB. For Charles to be a cousin of Roderick then their fathers would have to be brothers. Kenneth's father is given as Alexander who was married to Margaret Mackenzie. That Alexander was thought to have been born before 1720 and so for him to be the father of Charles's father, Alexander born around 1793, then he would have been over 70 which is unlikely!?

Unfortunately I have not found any reference that does not use the faulty DNB family connection of cousin so can't provide a replacement source yet. Will keep looking -Robert

Thanks for the information, and I sympathise with your difficulties. It might be worth putting these notes on the Talk Page. Best wishes. Jan1naD ^{(talk • contrib)} 13:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Done, there is now a section on the Charles Murchison Talk Page.

Undecimus Stratton 1868-1929 (Daimler, Stratton-Instone, Stratstone) known to friends as Eugene

Would you mind very much recording here the names of the parents of the above man. You have made an interesting point but you are required to provide proof of it. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 14:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

What I have found is the following:

His parents were Undecimus Stratton (1833-1916) and Margaret Bennet Paddey (1848- ) who married in 29 Aug 1867.

That Undecimus was the child of Undecimus (1802-1890) and Ann Horton (1805-1882). That Undecimus was the child of Jasper Stratton (1749-1808) and Sarah Ayliffe (1764- ) who married 19 May 1790 in Wiltshire.

Undecimus was a family name and not given because he was the 11th child. Given his parents had just married and his mother Margaret was under 20 when he was born, it is not likely she had already had 10 before him.

Note as well that Undecimus born 1833 had a YOUNGER brother Septimus born 1840. This suggests that their names were not related to the order of their birth.

I admire your belief in something you have found online but nowhere else. Please provide evidence that the person concerned is the child of Undecimus Stratton and Margaret Bennett Paddey and please sign your posts by entering four tildes (this sign~). Eddaido (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Some of the information on-line includes the following:

http://henly.familytreeguide.com/getperson.php?personID=I2386&tree=Allfamilies&PHPSESSID=c9261641e8bf226f8fb10b3b5dd22a83

Stratton Family Tree http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes&grave=232786&personid=489124

Grave monuments of Strattons in Wiltshire http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=178769

Grave monuments of Strattons in Berkshire http://www.uk.mundia.com/gb/Person/13403989/-37079858

Margaret Bennet Paddey and family Tettenhall St Michael and All Angels: marriages 1855-1880 http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/assets/userfiles/index.php?file=012294.pdf http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/assets/userfiles/index.php?file=012295.pdf

Name Age Father Date Spouse: Paddey Margaret Bennet age 19 Henry Farmer 29 Aug 1867 Stratton Undecimus

Stratton Undecimus Solicitor Undecimus Gentleman 29 Aug 1867 Paddey Margaret Bennet age 19 http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB149_PRI_24_P1/

14 Jul 1848 PADDEY Margaret Bennett, dau.of Henry & Isabella, Cooper of Waterloo Road.

Taken together it all seems to fit with Undecimus not named as such because he was the 11th child Rjlanc (talk) 13:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Rjlanc. I can see no thing in your long list of unsubstantiated claims that answers my question. However I do agree that the Sunninghill memorial is about the spouses of the right man (though I am very unhappy that I cannot read the inscription for myself but must accept someone else's transcription of it). Glad you found the tildes. Please have a look at the editing version of this page because I spent some time re-organising your text into the orthodox presentation. Not simple to learn but easy to use once you catch the general idea. You could always get a copy of our Undecimus (Dess to wife 2? Eugene to his friends?) Stratton's death certificate - would that name his parents? How would it be if I told you here that I had incontrovertible evidence that the same Winston Churchill who had WWII with Adolf Hitler was born in Kingston Jamaica and did not leave there until he was aged 30. I don't think you would accept that! Keep trying I will watch with interest. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the editing lesson. The image from Sunninghill is immediately available if you fill in the form, so you can read the inscription. Whilst I agree Winnie was not born in Jamaica I do have a nice photo of him visiting us! The original concern I had was that Undecimus was claimed to be the 11th child. There is enough evidence to show that the name had been in the Stratton family for generations and was not related to position. Not sure what would convince you.Rjlanc (talk) 10:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Cold hard uncontrovertible evidence and that is not what you are providing. There are rules about it if you look around here. I was trying to get across that there is certainly more than one Winston Churchill (the famous one was of a family of quite a number of less famous ones) and I do not see why the same should not apply to Strattons. In fact there were quite a number about in Victorian-Edwardian times and while I think you assume too much I will let the matter rest for now and I will try to remember about it and I will check my source when I'm able to and (probably) revert your edit. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 11:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

what about this transcription of the 1881 Census showing Undecimus as Father and Undecimus as son and clearly not the 11th child. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3V9-V1M Whilst there may be numerous Stratton families, the suggestion that every use of the name Undecimus is because the child is the 11th is not logical for a number of reasons. One being that having 11 children is not that common and two that passing on the name of the father to the son is common. No problem with you reverting the page I only happened upon it by chance and it intrigued me enough to try to find out more and I have certainly convinced myself that my assumptions are correct. Rjlanc (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Then you acknowledge that while the census record suggests it is of the same man it does not preclude a cousin, say, turning up from the colonies (Scotland, Ireland, Caribbean, remoter) of the same name. A birth cert is required I think but I will check when I can on that original record. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 03:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

A visitor would be recorded as visitor, not son as is shown.Rjlanc (talk) 10:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. You seem to miss the whole point. There are a number of people alive at the same time with the same name. You are unable to prove that the boy, son, in the census is the man referred to in the article. I agree it is quite possible they are the same but it remains unproven. Also it was far from uncommon for there to be families with 12 children by the same mother and father, particularly in the period concerned. Showing you just my own would take us way off topic. Eddaido (talk) 12:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

let's assume I am WRONG in believing that the Undecimus identified in the 1881 Census is the one from Daimler. I think we do agree that the evidence I have provided shows that the real Undecimus Stratton from Daimler was not the first or only Undecimus. The name has been used for generations in the Stratton family and the 1881 Census shows that in the case of the son listed there he was clearly NOT the 11th child, given that his mother was only about 20 years old. In fact, I believe they were married in 1867 and that he was the eldest child born 1868 and was named after his father and grandfather before him. Finding a Birth Certificate for this person will still not tie him to Daimler. It might be more useful to have a copy of the Wedding certificate of Undecimus with Lily Thompson since if I have identified the CORRECT Undecimus then both his father and grandfather would still have been alive (1898) and maybe his parents are listed which could link them to the census data. FreeBMD shows Marriages in District- Battle, County- Sussex, Mar quarter 1898 Vol 2b Page 89. Can you suggest other evidence that might help sort this out? Rjlanc (talk) 19:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Once more - you provide no evidence for your primary assertion which is that this Undecimus Stratton is that Undecimus Stratton, you just claim it is. Its a claim that is unsubstantiated. Do you see? Buy a certificate showing parents and date of death which is known from the newspapers and show an image of them online somewhere. Thanks Eddaido (talk) 01:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC) P.S. See how many people are on record with this name -> 418

But that last post script of mine is simply wrong. The LDS were being seriously over-generous, their corrected answer is three. Nevertheless I did find signs of others and am off to find them. Eddaido (talk) 02:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

If any of the 3 you have found are born in 1868 in the correct city and with the correct occupation and status then you have a case to suggest this is the wrong one. WP says he "was born into a family acceptable at the royal court. A notable athlete and rugby player and record-setting balloonist friend of C S Rolls. Stratton became a lawyer then started his own brewery, and, by the time he was in his early thirties, was able to marry a noted society beauty and to retire in great comfort." This fits with the 1881 census where Undecimus Senior is listed as aged about 47 and a Solicitor. The 1901 census shows Undecimus StrattEn as merchant and brewer with Lilley wife and 2 year old son Vivian. He is listed as being born in Wolverhampton, Lilley O'Haro StrattEn as born in Melbourne, Australia, Vivian was born in Wolverhampton. There is a separate entry for Undecimus and Margaret which give the same details as in the 1881 Census ie Undecimus now aged 67 born Wiltshire and Margaret now 52 born Wolverhampton. Check out as well http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB149_DEED_25/ where Undecimus the younger is noted as coming from Wolverhampton and a Wine Merchant. Rjlanc (talk) 03:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The 1901 census record is good stuff for us, now just find them in 1911 please. Eddaido (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, no luck with 1911, Undecimus Snr is there as a Border in Paddington (listed as a Widowed Retired Solicitor) but nothing for Jnr. I wonder if this is when they were visiting the USA? Vivian Undecimus their son born 1899 in Wolverhampton who showed in the 1901 Census went on to marry unknown Sheid in Surrey and seems to have died about 1941.Rjlanc (talk) 20:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

In case anyone is interested, I have been trying to find more info on Lily O'Hara Thompson and believe the following is reasonably close if not entirely accurate. Henry Michael O'Hara married Anna Macoboy in Cork, Ireland and had a number of children in Cork before moving to England where he died in 1865. Included in the children I have found are Helena (who married Oliver Thompson - also born in Cork and who moved to Melbourne where Lily O'Hara Stratton nee Thompson was born), Henry Michael who had 3 wives (2 who died in buggy accidents). He died in Portsea, Victoria, Australia and was a Surgeon. http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/ohara-henry-michael-7892 William James was a Dental Surgeon in Leicester who married Eliza Deane Perrier. http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/9a102b0539668 Lily was a visitor with them for the 1891 UK Census. Rjlanc (talk) 01:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It might be of interest to their families? Eddaido (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

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