User talk:ShiftWokl

Cross/Stake controversy

Dear ShiftWokl,

Thank you for your question. Of course, it is impossible to rewrite the many pages of the discussion page of “cross” in the Greek Wikipedia. But I will mention the highlights of the case.

The fanatic Orthodox editor under the user name Papyrus tried to use Wikipedia as means for a religious polemic against Jehovah’s Witnesses. So the article was by itself non neutral.

In his effort to achieve his purpose, he made a salad of statements from several scientific books and he drew his own conclusions. Such a behavior is called Original Research. The worst was that those conclusions were false. Actually Papyrus does not know Latin and his knowledge on the ancient Greek language and generally linguistics is poor.

For instance, Papyrus falsely argued since a Greek writer in a document used the word xylon for patibulum, Biblical statement for Jesus’ being “hanged on xylon” meant that he was hanged on the patibulum.

He used falsely as a 2nd century testimony the text “Trial of Vowels” (Δίκη φωνηέντων), which is regarded spurious and thus it is written some time after the death of Lucianus.

Even though he presented the 3rd century testimony of Minucius Felix in favor of the shape of the cross, he did not mention that this specific writer was against the veneration of the cross.

Papyrus falsely drew conclusions for the Greek New Testament on the basis of the evolution in the Latin language, but at the other hand he failed to understand and to mention that the two important elements are (1) the history of Greek language and (2) the Hebraic influence on the Greek New Testament text. Hence, it was a great failure that did not mention at all the connection of the Hebrew terms of the Bible about the ancient practice of impalement, as ets, with the Septuagint and thus the Greek New Testament. Papyrus also failed to mention current extra-biblical evidence of the use of stauros as a stake, as the ones in Philo, Xenophon and Josephus.

Papyrus falsely claimed the Greek scholar Vine said that the pagan adoption of cross by Christians had to do merely with the Gnostic Christianity and not with the mainstream churches.

To make it plain, the only Biblical indication for Jesus’ being hanged on a cross with a horizontal crossbeam is the reference to the Title above his head. This is what Dictionaries and Encyclopedias present as sole indication. The rest of the arguments of Papyrus were of his own pseudo-scientific speculation.

I hope to find these points helpful. --Vassilis78 (talk) 13:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your answer! I've understood your points. I've collected material for my article in russian about cross/stake, which consists of more than 700 files (article, pics and so). But as I remember I there is no quatations from "Philo, Xenophon and Josephus" concerning the matter. When I tried to find such a evidence in Google it gave only link to anti-JW sites. Can you help me a little bit more with that referencies, please? :)ShiftWokl (talk) 11:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't answered as yet, it is because I am very busy. If you speak German, or if any of your friends does speak, download this vast source of information: Das Kreuz und die Kreuzung by Herman Fulda

Maybe at the afternoon I will give you more information. --Vassilis78 (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, dear Vassilis78! I've spent a great amout of time trying to get this book by couldn't. Yes, I've friends, who understand german, but unfortunately they also have no time. So if you just write to lines it will be a great help for me.

Recently I've found interesting link of Clement of Alexandria here (line 3) [1], where he uses word which root "stauros" as a verb meaning to fence, hedge, with is connected with stake rather then cross. :)

One more time, thanks a lot! ShiftWokl (talk) 08:37, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The word stauros continued to mean stake for many centuries after Christ. It is interesting that three Byzantine lexicons, of Photius, Hesyhius and Souda, render stauros as every type of uprght stakes. When I'll have more time I will give more details. For the moment, you can find thing in Parson's book.--Vassilis78 (talk) 14:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Gibbet of Jesus

Some time ago, you participated in Talk at an article which has been variously named Torture stake, Cross or stake as gibbet on which Jesus died, Historical disputes over the shape of the Crucifix, Dispute about the shape of the gibbet of Jesus, Dispute of Jesus' execution method, and Dispute about Jesus' execution method. Editors are considering another name change; I thought you might participate in that discussion.--AuthorityTam (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)