User talk:Sukh/Archive 3

From March 2006 to May 2006

Punjab Map

As you mentioned on my talk page, I've created a map of Punjab and the surrounding region. It was a lot more painstaking and time consuming than I thought, but it seems to have turned out quite well. As yet I haven't come up with a good way to highlight the actual Punjab area though, do you have any suggestions? A preliminary version is here: http://infinity.gotroot.ca/~ktims/punjab_map.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktims (talk • contribs) 11:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

That looks really good thanks! I do have a few suggestions though:

• Amnitsar should be Amritsar.
• Uttaranchal is one word.
• Can we move Chandigarh down a bit so it is closer to Haryana. Then can we add a dotted circle around it? Chandigarh is technically not part of either state so it should be in its own box.
• Can we also put New Delhi in its own dotted circle because it is also a Union Territory.
• Can we colour China, Nepal and Afghanistan all the same, light colour?

It will be good to derive several useful maps from this. Thanks! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I've made the changes you recommended. I also want to note that the accuracy of the map is not up to par with a real political map, it's for illustrative purposblah blah blah es only. Most of it I ended up tracing by hand; it should be fairly accurate because the base maps are from GIS data, but all of the state boundaries and cities were added by hand. Once we've got a 'final' edition I will post the SVG to wiki, I just don't want to be uploading the same thing a bunch of times before commiting a final edition, and unfortunately there isn't any sandbox for images that I'm aware of. Refresh the URL above for the new version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktims (talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've gone ahead and uploaded what's done so far; I can't think of any other improvements to make. The image is Image:Punjab map.svg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktims (talk • contribs) 07:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Khalistan

User:Anmol.2k4 had left a message on my talk page about this article's WP:AFD. Thought you should know. - Ganeshk (talk) 19:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! I've added my comments to the AfD. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hukam

In view of your previous help with Bhai Makhan Shah, I thought you might be interested in this article. Created, as the Makhan Shah article, by Harisingh, the article, though surely about a notable subject, needs a great deal of cleanup (stylistically and substantively); surely you are better able than I to help in the editing of the article (or, at the very least, to give Hari some advice as to how best he might cleanup the article in order that it should conform to Wikipedia's quality standards), and, so, I thought you might want to check it out. I would try to help, but I'm certainly not overly familiar with the subject, and, in any case, don't want further to offend Hari (he might perceive my offering input as a personal attack). Cordially, Joe 22:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Bhai Makhan Shah is probably one of the better articles when it comes to "fringe" topics on Sikhism. Even some of the articles about the Sikh Gurus are very poor in content. Yes I will help cleaning it up when I get time. I'm not going to be online much over next few days so I shall take a look after that.

Feel free to lend a hand - I'm sure Hari won't mind. I will discuss with him some issues about copying articles directly from SikhiWiki and what sort of thing is not appropriate on Wikipedia. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

When is Vaisakhi ?

Hello, Sukh. May I ask when Vaisakhi is supposed to be in 2006 ? April 13th or 14th ? It's not clear on the Vaisakhi page. The lone external link on the Vaisakhi page links to a webpage that says it's April 13th. If it's the first day of the second month in the Nanakshahi calendar, it should be April 14th, right ? I've posted it as April 14th on Template:Current events for now. Is it the right date ? -- PFHLai 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Uhmm, not certain about this one. I'll have a look into it more later. Stay tuned! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the SGPC, it's 13 April [1]. However, lots and lots of other sources based on Nanakshahi say 14 April. I suppose that's what happens when you introduce a new calendar :/. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

POV tag at Khalistan

Sir why did you removed pov tag in the article ?

Regards 220.227.152.109 15:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Please look more closely at the edit history. It was actually User:Anmol.2k4 who removed the tag: [2]. Most probably by accident. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm very very sorry Sukh I made that mistake. Anmol.2k4 16:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

And also it is getting too confusing for myself,i think 220.227.152.109 is my ip, sorry for blaming you for my mistake. Anmol.2k4 16:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it can get confusing. Just make sure you're logged in! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Amnesty issue

"you should write how the AI report may be biased"i have already done that. suk what is your opinion on the AI issue. Anmol.2k4 16:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Khalistan. We should keep all discussion on that page so that everyone is able to see what is going on. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Sockepuppeting

Your message:

Hi Bhadani!

I was wondering if you can help me out here. User:Anmol.2k4 claims that User:Thetruth and User:Zafarnamah are sock puppets. I remember dealing with several disputes with The truth and I'm pretty certain that it's not the same person. The dispute is here Talk:Khalistan#Dispute. Thanks! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I would request you to take up the issue at the proper forum, which is Wikipedia:Requests for CheckUser. Even administrators can not chack the claim such claims - only 10 / 12 persons in wikipedia has the tools to check this, and it may also take time. Meanwhile, please continue to work positively, after registering your doubts at the proper place. However, please note that telling some one to be a sock-puppet without any basis is not good. It may de-motivate the new users. So, I suggest you to be careful while levelling such charges - if the charge is proved wrong, the person who blames other to be a sock-puppet may lose his reputation. --Bhadani 16:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick reply. I think you may have misunderstood - I was not claiming that they were socket puppet accounts. I was actually claiming the opposite (I wanted the issue cleared up). As such, I'll inform User:Anmol.2k4 of what he needs to do (he is the one who believes the two accounts are sockpuppets).Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

DaGizza's RfA

Thanks!

Hi Sukh/Archive 3, thank you for supporting me in my RfA which passed with a tally of (93/1/2). If you need any help or wish discuss something with me, you are always welcome to talk to me. Gizza^{Chat ©} 11:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Alakh Niranjan

Hi Sukh, after a long time! I created this article a while ago. I've read that the phrase "Alakh Niranjan" is also used in Sikhism. Could you look at the stub from Sikh perspective, and add more details? Thanks! deeptrivia (talk) 14:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup, been a while! Unfortunately, I'm not too knowledgable on this subject. I'm unsure as to when or if that phrase is used. Looking around Google, it appears to have been used, but only sparsely and I cannot find any direct information about it. Although it's used in Vaaran Bhai Gurdas: [3]

Punjabi: ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਆਖੀਐ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ॥

alakh niranjan aakheeai roop n raekh alaekh apaaraa||

Hope that helps. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Great! Could you translate the above sentence? Thanks :) deeptrivia (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my Punjabi skills are not good enough to translate that. However, got a friend to do it, and he says:

"If we worship the immortal god, nothing can change our face or expressions."

And 'Alakh Niranjan' is used as one of the many names for God. Hope that helps, and sorry for the delay! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Srigranth

Template:Srigranth has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. --Andy123(talk) 06:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Articles from Sikhiwiki

Thanks for your message. I have made a note of your comments and depending on time will try my best to make the changes that you suggest. However, you will note that there is very little added on Sikhism on this database and I only check this site infrequently. Most of my work is done on Sikhiwiki where the user would object if the terms Sahib or Ji were not used when referring to the Gurus, etc. So it is very difficult to create two version of the same article.

Unfortunately, there does not appear to be anyone else who will transfer articles from Sikhiwiki to here - so reluctantly, I have taken up this tasks as there appears to be very little action on Sikhism on this site - considering that it is the fifth biggest religion and the most youngest.

Regarding quotes, most quotation are properly acknowledged and I have been going this at Sikhiwiki for over a year and all I have had is appreciation but no objection. Perhaps you do not appreciate that most people who write on Sikhism write these article without copyright and are only too please when these are acknowledge and used by the Sangat

However, I take your point. --Hari Singh 11:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If you do have time to cleanup the articles for Wikipedia, that is appreciated. However, if you don't have time, please don't worry - the wiki process will eventually clean them up. I agree with you that there isn't much depth or content to the Wikipedia pages on Sikhism. Anything we can do to improve them is appreciated.

I'm aware that the vast majority of Sikh sites out there are willing to give their content to sites like this. However, for pure legal reasons, we cannot accept it unless it's specifically mentioned on the web site, or the author submits it, or we get written permission. It's legitimate to quote small, relevant pieces without getting permission, but we should refrain from using large amounts of text without explicit consent. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I have responded to you on the talk page. The external links violate the wikipedia guidelines on external links as I have explained on the talk page. --Blacksun 18:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Shalwar Qameez

"Shalwar Qameez" is the correct spelling. As the article says that it is national dress Pakistan and both men and women wear this dress. It is worn by Kurds from Turkey, through Iran and Afghanistan to Pakistan. It is written and prounced as "Shalwar Qameez". In India, it is called Punjabi dress or/and Salwar Kameez and is worn by women only. Can you please stop cyber stalking me !!

Siddiqui 18:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'cyber stalking' you - please clarify. And no, your particular transliteration thinks that "Shalwar Qameez" is the correct spelling (what particular scheme are you using, and from which source language?). In either case, "Salwar Kameez" is by far the most common spelling in English - and that's all that needs to be said. "Shalwar Kameez" is also popular, but still insignificant compared to "Salwar Kameez". Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It is Shalwar Qameez. He is one-hundred per cent correct.

اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ 05:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That may be the case, but in English the spelling "salwar kameez" is by far the most popular. As such, we use that for article naming as per Wikipedia policies. See for example Mecca (not Makkah) and Bengali (not Bangla). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I see. Sorry to bother you then. اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ 19:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration

Hello again. I was reading your charts, and the simple transliteration of Panjabi, and I would like to propose two changes. ਖ਼ should be, in my opinion transliterated x, and ਛ should be transliterated chh. If it were official translieration, it would be ch, following c. This is how I and many other Panjabi speakers write on the internet. اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ 19:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about 'chh' - I was a bit apprehensive about having two 'h's but little can be done about that. In regards to ਖ਼, I'm not sure I support 'x'. I can understand your reasoning, but most transliterations (from Gurmukhi at least) list that as kh. For example, if we take the word ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ it would look odd written "xālsā". This may be an issue with differing transliteration schemes for Arabic scripts?

Either way, any more comments are appreciated. Hopefully, I'll finish off the details and see if we can have it implemented as some sort of Wikipedia policy. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਅੰਗ੍ਰੇਰਜ਼ੀ ਕੋਸ਼ transliterates ਖ਼ as x. اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ 04:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I see. It just seems a bit odd to change 'kh' in the ISO transliteration scheme to 'x'. Is this the scheme used for Arabic text? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Calendar

I appreciate your opinion, but Sukh where are you from? I am not attacking the Sikh faith. Are you from the same city as Purewal. Do you know him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.150.90.80 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, never met the guy. I don't have opinions either way as to what he was like. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 09:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi Sukh, thanks for the welcome. My area of personal expertise is in the political and military periods before the take over by the British empire of Punjab and in Sikh Philosphy and some Knowledge of Sikh Sants. I am not always on Wikipedia, due to being very busy, but if you need help I will try to help.

Sikh Scholar 19 April 2006 --Sikh scholar 07:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

That's great! Please contribute to whatever you can. There are many articles that need a lot of work... Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Nanakshahi

I've made another edit and taken out personal comments (some of which are true). i've made a compromise and i hope you respect it by leaving it as is. thank you. the homosexual comment was added because i wanted to know if someone was editing just what i wrote or the article as a whole. i would have taken it out myself. anyways, take care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.150.90.80 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with your writing about geniune criticisms of the calendar, but the current version I shall not accept. All your additions appear to be personal comments without references (and rather derogatory at that). You must reference any point you add. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 09:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Gurdwaras in Pakistan

This page is a list Gurdwaras in Pakistan. Can we rename it to List of Gurdwaras in Pakistan, add Category:Pakistan-related lists and add this page to List of Pakistan-related topics. Your comment is requested. Siddiqui 02:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup, sure. Go ahead! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 09:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Calendar

You don't know what he WAS like? He’s still alive. You don't know anything. I bet you're an unpar. This is what happens when we get dumb illiterate panchodes like you trying to stop other Sikhs from stating facts. You make me sick. You need to get your ungal out your bund and stop acting hard. It’s Sikhs like you with your massive egos that make other Sikhs look bad. lun chuttla. Don’t try to threaten me. Who threatens people from behind computer screens? Panchode bujhdils do. Are you a panchode bujhdil? Don’t complain to higher officials like a hijra because I saved the comment you e-mailed me about wanting to sodomize me. What kind of a Wikipedia administrator messages people and says that I’m going to sodomize you? You deleted my comments then e-mailed me on my university account and said I'm going to sodomize you. What's wrong with you? I use that e-mail for academic purposes not for some stalker to leave vulgar messages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.150.90.80 (talk • contribs)

Here are some translations of certain terms this user has used:

• panchodes - sister f**kers
• ungal out your bund - finger out of your arse
• lun chuttla - suck my ....
• hijra - eunuch
• bujhdil - Not sure about this one. Evidentally my tame upbringing has not allowed me to experience the full colour of Punjabi swear words ;) [Update: I have it on good authority that this means coward]

LOL, I actually found you comments amusing. I have no idea who you are, nor have I messaged you and nor do I know your e-mail address. Here's a small quote from page 473 of the Guru Granth Sahib. Maybe as someone "without ego", you should think about what it says and how it applies to your message above:

ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥

naanak fikai boliai than man fikaa hoe ||

O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.

If you wish to criticise the calendar then go ahead. I personally thought it was a pointless change. But source your criticsms, because you're not important enough to be the main source of reference.

Good day, O troll. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Paliam being voted for deletion

I was wondering if you could take a look at the Paliam article and see if it warrants deletion. It is currently being voted for deletion. I'm not trying to force an opinion, but your participation would be helpful. Thanks! --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 15:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! I see you're back on Wikipedia now - welcome! Are you on leave from Iraq?

Oh, and you really need to sort out your sig! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for participating! No, not on leave yet, but I have a somewhat stable internet connection now! Things here are ok, just got a few more months left. Will be going on leave soon to India though. Can't figure out what's wrong with my sig! I've changed it twice and it ends up doing the same thing. Must have something to do with the proxy it goes through here. Very weird. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത് 16:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

check out Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Vedic)

Maybe you could use some stuff for you indic conventions. Also, should you include other indian languages as well other that Hindi?--Dangerous-Boy 08:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

merge Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people of India and Sri Lanka) with indic one

porbably merge those two. --Dangerous-Boy 19:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I do feel it's more appropriate to merge the Dharmic one with the Indic one instead of this. However, we could merge all three and create a unified "Indic" naming convetion scheme? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead with the merge.--Dangerous-Boy 00:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

So when are we going begin the merge? This really something big here. It's never been done before!--Dangerous-Boy 03:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Punjabi map

Hi! Earlier this year, you had requested me to draw a map for the Punjabi-speaking areas. I do have some free time now, so I guess I'll fulfill your long standing request the following weekend. Source. I complete drawing Image:India-svg-test-2.svg first. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, that's good news! However, I've already managed to get a partially complete map made: Image:Punjab_map.svg. But the person who made hasn't replied to my request to colour in certain sections and I don't know how to do it myself. If you could fix this one or make your own that would be appreciated. Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup, I can fix and NPOV it, but over the weekend. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Shahmukhi Deletion

Sukh, I have been having some trouble with the Shahmukhi images. It says I don't give copyright info, and it will be deleted. How do I stop this mindless slaughter? I wrote the whole thing myself, and scanned it. اَيُّوْبْ وَزيْرْ 22:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it's because you don't have the appropriate copyright tags on the image. It's easily fixed - I've put it under the GNU FDL - if you wish to use something else, please change the licence.

Also, please change your signature so that your username and a link to your user page is displayed (you can keep the Arabic script too). It makes it much easier for other Wikipedians to know who you are. Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Khalistan

I moved the page to Khalistan movement. Kindly make your comments on my talk page. --Andy123(talk) 17:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Adminship

Hi Sukhbhai - I don't know if you've discussed this with someone else before or if you have rejected previous offers, but I desire to nominate you for adminship. You do very valuable work here on the English Wikipedia, spread across a large number of pages on Sikhism and India content. You are already an administrator on the Punjabi Wikipedia, so obviously you're a model Wikipedian. Perhaps the English Wikipedia is not your first line of interest, but I request you to seek the tools so that you can directly help in protecting its content and helping other users. Please consider this, and lemme know. Thanks, Rama's Arrow 21:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Might I add, that you would make a terrific asset as an admin. Your skills in engaging in difficult and sensitive situations, fighting vandalism are very good, and you will get very effective tools if you are elected. We need experienced and pioneer (in reference to your great work on the Punjabi WP) Wikipedians to take the lead. Please do consider this. Rama's Arrow 21:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm very honoured that you think I'm good enough to be an administrator on the English Wikipedia. However, I'm not sure if I can commit enough time and effort to be an administrator. I am barely able to do work on the pages I've got now!

Saying that, I am the only regular contributor to the pages related to Sikhism, and there are various admin tools that'll make my job easier.

If you feel my lack of time won't be too much of an issue, then I certainly accept your nomination request.

I've been seeing the steller work you've been doing on Wikipedia and I'm in no doubt that you are also administrator material! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It is understandable since you're a prime contributor to the Punjabi Wikipedia, but obviously your work on Sikhism and India-related topics, especially against vandalism and trolling, is very strong. I will proceed to create your nomination page. Please accept and answer the questions, after which the page should be posted on WP:RFA. Rama's Arrow 00:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Btw, I would request you to remain mentally prepared for any outcome. I believe in you, but the case for adminship must be purely based on your record. Please be candid and fortright about any, any incident or problem that has occured. I think you'll need to double-clarify all your work on fighting POV and trolling on the Khalistan pages. Rama's Arrow 00:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Would like to support you for it ..... If you would kindly guide me, how it works and if there is any procedure involved. I did check the page where I can vote but it looks bit complicated. Thanks (Neomav 22:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

Hi, I'm glad you wish to support me! It's very easy: simply add #'''Support''' [REASON] ~~~~ where [REASON] is the reason you are voting for me, to the bottom of the 'support' section. If you need any help, please get back in touch. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Official nomination

Hi Sukhbhai - please clarify any/all past disputes and issues you may have had, and the lessons you have learnt. Possible weaknesses include small projectspace edits tally, but this is largely offset by your work on the Punjabi WP. Sat Shri Akal! Jai Sri Rama!

Thank you. I've added myself to the RfA list and accepted your nomination. I don't know if I should ask people if they wish to support or oppose me, but I think I'll add a note on the Khalistan talk page. I think any opposition I'm going to get is going to be particularly relevant there. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

It is probably best not to advertise an RfA - it hasn't gone down well int he past when folk have. It generally gets intepreted as campaigning or vote stacking. (I'm not saying that's your intention) --Doc ^ask? 12:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, yes I appreciate that. I merely thought that people on the Khalistan article were the most likely to oppose me and as such I felt they should know that I'm going up for a RfA. It certainly wasn't in the interest of getting support votes :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

If there are problem users who might line up for attack, obviously we can report to the bureaucrats. Such oppose votes are not counted usually. This won't be an easy ride, but I have confidence that it will succeed. You will prolly have to be around answer other comments. Rama's Arrow 13:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Guru Nanak article

hi thanks for creating the temporary page for me.

however i fail to see how this old page is objectively better? i will back this claim in a moment. be honest, was this reversion more about personal ego than accuracy?

this old article reads like a brochure, and is full of POVs. what is your information actually based on?

"When he reappeared, it is said he was "filled with the spirit of God" (the precise nature of this is open to personal interpretation: is it a mythical divinity or is it an intimate understanding?)." said where? "It is this secularist, humanitarian principle that governed his thought" this is a westerner's opinion. secularist thought? since when was he a politician? you're just 'intrepreting' it to look favourable to modern eyes. "Guru Nanak gave up his body after he had requested his disciples to sing the Sohila (the praise of God)." again, according to who? "Once when Guru Nanak was asked which religion, Hinduism or Islam was the true path to God, Guru Nanak replied that the true way to attain God was to worship Him who is eternal and contained in the whole Universe." where did he say that?

the article is full odf myth and generalisations that have no backing.

and I cant believe you could have a Guru Nanak article without even refering to Mool Mantra.

that said i have not altered it yet and will continue working on the temp page. --Balvinder 23:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for getting back to me.

Yes, the article is full of POVs and as such I've added a tag now to the page. Feel free to remove any information that you feel is incorrect or POV.

The reason I moved your page over was because it was a very much a work in progress and was littered with comments about what will go where. However, as soon as you finished a section or even started it, feel free to move it across. This was not an attempt to stifle your edits, it was merely to keep the page presentable (and usable to a Wikipedia user) while you work on it.

Oh, and please add new discussions to the bottom of the page! Thank you :D Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Bhangda

[Copied from ImpuMozhi's talk page]

Hi,

I'm a bit puzzled by this move. I presume it's because Devanagari Rra is represented with Dda + Nukta (ड़). However this is formally transliterated and pronounced as 'ṛ' (in ISO 15919 and in IAST). Also, I've never ever seen Bhangda used. In addition, in Punjabi (the language of Bhangra), Rra is a distinct character ੜ and has no relation to ਡ (ड in Devanagari).

I hope this is enough to convince you of the need to move it back and place a redirect from Bhangda! Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I moved the page to Bhangda because I believed that this is the correct Punjabi name (an impression gleaned from personal experience). As you are no doubt aware, there is a tendency in parts of north India to change the 'da' sound to 'ra' while speaking. This has nothing to do with script as the two syllables are written differently in Devanagari too (and AFAIK in all Indian languages) but I thank you for the attempted explanation. Would I be wrong in thinking that the 'BhangRa' spelling and increasing use of that pronounciation among non-traditional groups is a result of this modification?

I moved to a spelling reflecting the traditional pronounciation on the reflection that an encyclopaedia ought to be purist. I see that you have moved it back, presumably since you feel strongly about it; on my part, I have no particular feelings on the matter. ImpuMozhi 22:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me.

I'm not sure about other north Indian languages, but in Punjabi definately it's pronounced as a rolling 'r' (and "officially" at that). I don't know if you're getting confused with र and ड़ (or maybe it's just me interpreting what you've said!). The first one is the normal 'r', the second one is like a rolling 'r' close to a 'd'. See [4] for details of the differing sounds between ਰ(र) and ੜ(ड़). The second one even has an aspirated version which is 'ढ़'. So in Punjabi it's written ਭੰਗੜਾ and Hindi it's भंगड़ा (both pronounced the same!).

Although I'm not linguist, I actually think that the BhangDa pronounciation (or even Bhangra with a normal instead of rolling R) is the non-standard version. Please take everything I've said with a pinch of salt because I'm in no way certain! :D Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you telling me by any chance that there are TWO R-sounding-syllables in Punjabi? Please confirm this thing.

I cannot read Gurmukhi, but I read the Devanagari spelling you have here (भंगड़ा) and this is definitely 'd' as in the English word 'Dart'. This is often changed in speech to 'r', which it would appear is what has happened with Bhangra.

Do you know that my user-name is pronounced "ImpumoRi" where the 'r' is different rom the usual 'r'? There are three different 'R'-sounds in Tamil. Regards, ImpuMozhi 22:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are two 'r' sounding syllables in Punjabi. In the link above, see if you can find the letters that look like 'ਰ' and 'ੜ' on the one from last row. This shows you the difference in pronunciation.

You must distinguish between 'ड' and 'ड़'. The first is a 'd' sound, the second is the rolling 'r' sound (notice the dot at the bottom). This is similar to how क़ is 'q', not 'k' and ज़ is 'z' not 'j'. As far as I'm aware, this is the proper pronounciation in Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi! Although I've never formally learnt either of these languages so I could be wrong :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanx -- you live and learn. I suppose that one of the Rs is occasionally interchangeable to 'd' and the other is not. I only knew that a lot of north Indians pronounce the word 'Bhangda' (even in Indipop songs), and somehow that sounded more authentic and old-fashioned. I even have a friend who spells his name 'Arora' and calls himself 'Aroda' in speech. But possible those people are all wrong and the 'da' usage is slang, rather than the other way round!

I should not be as surprised as I am to learn that Punjabi has two R-sounds -- Tamil has three, as I said. Here is a link; you can scroll down to 'consonants' and identify the three. But you will need to speak to a Tamilian to find out how they (and my username!!) are pronounced. Regards, ImpuMozhi 23:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Khalistan flag

Image:Khalistanflag.png is now a redundant image. Should I delete it? =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup, sounds good to me. Thanks for the SVG version, I look forward to the improved Punjab map! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Deleted! =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)