User talk:Thingg/neptunium

I hope you won't mind if I do some work in your sandbox on the article? :-) Double sharp (talk) 10:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

(Should I use Kelvin or Celsius as default temperature unit? Is that codified in the MOS?) Double sharp (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

(I know it's not an FA, but I honestly feel berkelium is a better model than U and Pu for the Np article.) Double sharp (talk) 11:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

that's fine by me. It's definitely better to keep the technical stuff later in the article if we can. Thingg^⊕⊗ 18:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. I was also thinking that maybe we don't need to go into such detail about Np purification. We can save that for the comprehensive reviews like Yoshida...

(P.S. If you're interested in working on any other elements, I've been thinking for about a year on making iron an FA, but never got around to it. Perhaps once we get Np done?! :-P I can tell it would be scary due to massive history, but it's one of the most popular element articles, after all...) Double sharp (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah that's fine. Tbh I was kind of thinking the same. Maybe like do a paragraph or two the part about how it's separated from nuclear reactor products and then a couple more discussing the other ways it can be done. And yeah that sounds like it could be a nice project. I was thinking either that or aluminium would be good since both of those are pretty high traffic and I'm not feeling ready to tackle gold at this point haha. I do want to get Np mostly done (and maybe take a small break after that) before I get into iron though. Thingg^⊕⊗ 18:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

R8R Gtrs says he wants to do Al; let's leave it to him. :-)

So, after disappearing for some months, I return! We're not very far off from finishing this, I think. Time for more spamming and grabbing info from sources (Yoshida can still be heavily mined). Double sharp (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Still thinking about the layout and where to put Np's solution chemistry. Feel free to discuss. I would put it just over oxides and hydroxides – the ions are found in acidic solutions and in basic solutions you instead get the (aqueous or solid? are these soluble?) oxides and hydroxides. See the new section I wrote! :-D Double sharp (talk) 09:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Greenwood and Earnshaw Double sharp (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

arbitrary break

(Can I overwrite the talk page for your sandbox? Because I don't really like having to spam you with a new message notification every time I have something I want to tell you about the article, and putting it in the article looks ugly. HTML comments are easily to miss.)

The history section should extend somewhat past the discovery. Surely it does not just end there? (Bk has this problem too. If not for that it would probably be nearly FA-ready. In terms of usage Am, Cm, Bk are better models, especially Am because it can reach those high oxidation states like +6 and very unstable +7. Kinda like Np really. Cf is marginal: I think mav cut too much out. But that's another article, and well, he did get FA.) We should continue with isolation at the very least, and then some major milestones. (I've been looking at this from a chemical perspective, so I'm not too sure at the moment what these milestones are. Later.)

There should be clearer links between hydroxides/oxides and solution chemistry.

More details for the MeV neutron applications

I think fissionability should be under isotopes rather than atomic structure. The other as I see it should have electron configuration, how this impacts physical and chemical properties (like Yb), atomic radius other stuff blah blah blah. This is especially interesting because Pa is when 5f starts filling, Pu is when the complexity is greatest, U and Np are on the cusp.

compare Np more to its neighbours U and Pu. Feel free to also do other actinides, but that's not a must, only when relevant.

Is there any source explicitly stating how Np-238 and Np-240 are made. (I can see how, but don't see how that would be remotely detectable.) Furthermore where does Emsley get his info from that Am, Cm, Bk, and Cf are natural. (Es should be too.) I would prefer a published paper to just him. We have published papers for Np-237, Np-239, Pu-238, Pu-239, Pu-244, and I dunno what other Pu isotopes.

You mention Np is very mobile, why? I wanna know. I suspect the reader also wants to know. Double sharp (talk) 13:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll write more on the history and the applications section after I finish getting at least some basic stuff for the chemistry. I didn't get to the stuff after it's discovery yet because the book I primarily used for the first part (by Richard Rhodes) is mostly about the development of nuclear physics and chemistry and the making of the atomic bomb, so from that point of view, anything important that happens after the discovery of Np is mostly about Pu.

Agreed on fissionability, etc.

I agree on oxides<-->solutions and I'm going to work on adding more info on non-pure oxides next, but to be honest I'm a little bit out of my depth there and I'm afraid I might draw some incorrect conclusions about the relationship from the stuff I'm reading. I'm don't remember some stuff from my chemistry classes so it's taking longer because I have to refresh my memory. most of my classes on it were in my first couple years of school since I was a computer science major.

I will add more content to the synthesis section at some point if you don't get to it first.

Yeeah I will add more content on the mobility. ooking at it now, I think a lot of the content in the occurrence section would be better placed by making an "In the environment" (or similar title) section and also include "Role in nuclear waste" as a subsection to that. I will work on the refs too. Thingg^⊕⊗ 19:55, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Emsley on neutron capture reactions

Sorry for the huge size of this, but I suppose it's not just us who could use this info, so I didn't just provide it for Np.

Simplified (i.e. no neutrinos). Can be readily added into the article after some cleanup.

Neptunium

²³⁸U + n → ²³⁹U → ²³⁹Np + e⁻

²³⁹Np + n → ²⁴⁰Np

²⁴⁴Pu → ²⁴⁰U + ⁴He → ²⁴⁰Np + e⁻

²³⁷U → ²³⁷Np + e⁻

²⁴¹Am → ²³⁷Np + e⁻

²³⁷Np + n → ²³⁸Np

Plutonium

²⁴⁰Np → ²⁴⁰Pu + e⁻

²³⁸U → ²³⁸Pu + 2 e⁻

²⁴⁴Cm → ²⁴⁰Pu + ⁴He

²³⁹Np → ²³⁹Pu + e⁻

²³⁹Pu + n → ²⁴⁰Pu + n → ²⁴¹Pu + n → ²⁴²Pu + n → ²⁴³Pu

Americium

²⁴¹Pu → ²⁴¹Am + e⁻

²⁴³Pu → ²⁴³Am + e⁻

²⁴¹Am + n → ²⁴²Am + n → ²⁴³Am + n → ²⁴⁴Am

²⁴⁹Bk → ²⁴⁵Am + ⁴He

Curium

²⁴⁴Pu → ²⁴⁴Cm + 2 e⁻

²⁴²Am → ²⁴²Cm + e⁻

²⁴⁴Am → ²⁴⁴Cm + e⁻

²⁴⁵Am → ²⁴⁵Cm + e⁻

²⁴²Cm + n → ²⁴³Cm

²⁴⁵Cm + n → ²⁴⁶Cm + n → ²⁴⁷Cm + n → ²⁴⁸Cm + n → ²⁴⁹Cm

Berkelium

²⁴⁹Cm → ²⁴⁹Bk + e⁻

²⁴⁹Bk + n → ²⁵⁰Bk

Californium

²⁴⁹Bk → ²⁴⁹Cf + e⁻

²⁵⁰Bk → ²⁵⁰Cf + e⁻

²⁵⁰Cf + n → ²⁵¹Cf + n → ²⁵²Cf + n → ²⁵³Cf

Einsteinium

²⁵³Cf → ²⁵³Es + e⁻

The following reactions occured at Oklo, but apparently not anymore: uranium concentration just isn't high enough anymore to do the trick and let U atoms continue up the futile quest to ²⁵⁷Fm.

²⁵³Es + n → ²⁵⁴Es

Fermium

²⁵⁴Es → ²⁵⁴Fm + e⁻ (extremely rare)

²⁵⁴Fm + n → ²⁵⁵Fm + n → ²⁵⁶Fm + n → ²⁵⁷Fm

The sequence cannot continue beyond fermium as no fermium isotopes are known to undergo beta minus decay to mendelevium. In addition, the half-lives become far too short after fermium-257.

Written in terms of a single extremely lucky ²³⁸U atom (after ²⁵³Es is at the time of Oklo):

²³⁸U + n → ²³⁹U → ²³⁹Np + e⁻ → ²³⁹Pu + e⁻ + n → ²⁴⁰Pu + n → ²⁴¹Pu + n → ²⁴²Pu + n → ²⁴³Pu + n → ²⁴³Am + e⁻ + n → ²⁴⁴Am → ²⁴⁴Cm + e⁻ + n → ²⁴⁵Cm + n → ²⁴⁶Cm + n → ²⁴⁷Cm + n → ²⁴⁸Cm + n → ²⁴⁹Cm + n → ²⁴⁹Bk + e⁻ + n → ²⁵⁰Bk → ²⁵⁰Cf + e⁻ + n → ²⁵¹Cf + n → ²⁵²Cf + n → ²⁵³Cf → ²⁵³Es + e⁻ + n → ²⁵⁴Es → ²⁵⁴Fm + e⁻ + n → ²⁵⁵Fm + n → ²⁵⁶Fm + n → ²⁵⁷Fm

In total: ²³⁸U + 19 n → ²⁵⁷Fm + 8 e⁻

And now begins the long defeat, with the complete decay chain of fermium-257 (past thallium-205 it is predicted): ²⁵⁷Fm → ²⁵³Cf + ⁴He → ²⁵³Es + e⁻ → ²⁴⁹Bk + ⁴He → ²⁴⁹Cf + e⁻ → ²⁴⁵Cm + ⁴He → ²⁴¹Pu + ⁴He → ²⁴¹Am + e⁻ → ²³⁷Np + ⁴He → ²³³Pa + ⁴He → ²³³U + e⁻ → ²²⁹Th + ⁴He → ²²⁵Ra + ⁴He → ²²⁵Ac + e⁻ → ²²¹Fr + ⁴He → ²¹⁷At + ⁴He → ²¹³Bi + ⁴He → ²¹³Po + e⁻ → ²⁰⁹Tl + ⁴He → ²⁰⁹Pb + e⁻ → ²⁰⁹Bi → ²⁰⁵Tl + ⁴He → ²⁰¹Au + ⁴He → ²⁰¹Hg + e⁻ → ¹⁹⁷Pt + ⁴He → ¹⁹⁷Au + e⁻ → ¹⁹³Ir + ⁴He → ¹⁸⁹Re + ⁴He → ¹⁸⁹Os + e⁻ → ¹⁸⁵W + ⁴He → ¹⁸⁵Re + e⁻ → ¹⁸¹Ta + ⁴He → ¹⁷⁷Lu + ⁴He → ¹⁷⁷Hf + e⁻ → ¹⁷³Yb + ⁴He → ¹⁶⁹Er + ⁴He → ¹⁶⁹Tm + e⁻ → ¹⁶⁵Ho + ⁴He → ¹⁶¹Tb + ⁴He → ¹⁶¹Dy + e⁻ → ¹⁵⁷Gd + ⁴He → spontaneous fission. Double sharp (talk) 12:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC)