User talk:Tipcake

Owain Lawgoch COA

Please leave the new image of the coat of arms of Owain Lawgoch, the seal image is not at all clear, and to prove the image is correct visit the BBC reference link in the article to see its authenticity. I don't want an edit war, please talk about the coat of arms and don't revert. Cltjames (talk) 22:03, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The image in the BBC article of the inscribed image on the memorial at Mortagne is a rendition of the very same seal which I have uploaded a copy of, matrices of which survive from multiple charters of Owain's. The image on the memorial even includes the distinctive horned helmet on top of the shield. I am not sure what you mean by the seal image being 'not at all clear'. It is quite clearly blazoned quarterly four lions passant guardant counterchanged, and copied from those used by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Dafydd ab Iorwerth, and Gruffudd ab Iorwerth. I can't help that I have photographed a copy of a wax matrix held in Paris with no images online, but I doubt it is any 'clearer' on the original! Tipcake (talk) 22:15, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The seal is over 600 years old, and Wikipedia tends to have issued with WP:RS age discrepancies. My argument stands not just for me but for the countless editors who have contributed to the article. I reiterate my point, the seal is not clear, and the image is clear. I don't see the argument, sorry. It only makes sense to keep both for simplistic reasons, such as legibility. I would appreciate it if you dropped the non existant issue and left the new version as well as the original. Cltjames (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I just saw this after I published my latest edit; anyways, I put a citation in about the collection of matrices from this seal in Paris which explains why it is the only source of Owain's arms. I hope that works! Tipcake (talk) 22:32, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are you willing to compromise please, at least explain why you want to remove the image, because I don't see the logic and wish to reinstate the coat of arms in full color, which is much better for an average reader to better understand... Cltjames (talk) 22:33, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As it is a short article, it seems to me to be a bit cluttered to have essentially the same image twice. I hope to rewrite the article to be of a length and detail comparable to my article on Urien. I'd be happy for it can be re-added once I make it longer, if that works? Maybe even the coloured version by Matthew Paris' hand? Tipcake (talk) 22:38, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well if you have a plan, then I would recommend a more open display of symbolism, like an explanation of what the seal actually looked like, because it is ineligible, like I've repeated now. But a rewrite seems interesting, although there isn't much more to add, but please go ahead, I tried to complete the article with references and reshuffling. And I did see the Urien article, you've done a good job there. But also, the quote is still too long, I'm not the only person that will tell you this. Cltjames (talk) 22:42, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a description of the seal now based on the source I cited. I'll cut down the quote now! Tipcake (talk) 22:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if your interested in reading more about medieval Wales and Gwynedd in particular, I've written a blog about this time period, also I added and credited your Lawgoch seal image. Please read, comment, share, or whatever! Cltjames (talk) 13:38, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@DankJae: what is your opinion on re adding the coat of arms image? Cltjames (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with concerns the seal is "not at all clear", looks like a very blurry tracing? Cannot see any lions at all. Readers would struggle to recognise what is on it. So would prefer the coat of arms over the seal from purely an image quality perspective, until a clearer seal image is made (possibly Wiki-style like the CoA). Am I correct, in assuming the seal has the same coat of arms?

Nonetheless, appreciate the effort! Dank Jae 20:22, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@DankJae I have a suggestion. The crop painting of Owain Lawgoch can be reintroduced into the infobox. Then, a multiple image can be created of the seal impression and also the modern interpretation of the coat of arms, with an explanation of the COA showing the seal imagery. Any thoughts? Cltjames (talk) 21:04, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

the problem with that image to my mind is that it’s not accurate to the actual event of his death. I uploaded image of Owain’s second seal today, maybe that would work instead? While the image may be clearer, the impression itself is inferior to the one that is there presently.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seal_of_Yvain_de_Galles,_from_Santander_in_1372.png Tipcake (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the image on the memorial to Owain in Mortagne is based on the seal that is presently on the page Tipcake (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It isn’t a blurry tracing; it is a photo I took with my phone of the original impression. It’s just very small (maybe 2in across) so the detail might look poor. I can try to get a better photo but I can’t promise it will look much better! Tipcake (talk) 21:16, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hmn, the files say "Reproduction from the National Library of Wales"? Is it from one of their images?

Ah, so it is an image of a small seal but upscaled? That unfortunately means a lot of detail is lost as a result, so still believe it is still too unclear for readers. May be upload the images in a smaller size/zoomed out? It could help to have the entire photo with the surroundings, with the seal in place so it can provide context for any missing details. But thank you for trying!

Still believe it may be better to see if a custom can be made for it (based on the memorial), or hope the society or another source release a better (free) image for it (in the future). However that is not guaranteed. Open to the multi image suggestion in the mean time, if it clutters, it can just be made a bit smaller. Dank Jae 22:38, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, I saw the seal in person and took a photo with my camera. The impression here is a cast from the original in the BNF, that’s what I mean my ‘reproduction’, sorry! I’ll try to take another picture soon. I can’t say I’ve upscale the image any, though. The original ‘background’ was just a matte black sheet, so it won’t provide much more detail. Tipcake (talk) 22:56, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@DankJae@Cltjames I have uploaded new versions of the image that should be more legible. Again, the original impression is about 2in across, so my phone can only do so much... it is also hanging on the wall in a frame with glass, so I can't manipulate the impression at all for a better image. Can you tell me which image you prefer? Tipcake (talk) 10:47, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ok, I see the new image is a better quality. But I still think I found the best solution in making a multiple image with the seal and coat of arms together. Cltjames (talk) 11:17, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That could be fine too. Let me ask at the library if I can handle the seal myself, perhaps I can get an even better picture of it. Tipcake (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gruffudd Fychan de la Pole moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Gruffudd Fychan de la Pole. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it has no sources. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit for review" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. Junbeesh (talk) 11:54, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]