User talk:TransfusionTropDark

Del Francia

You claimed to have the source, so read it, p. 94.

"Ne consegue, quantomento, che Tefnakht, probabilmente, non era di etnia Libu. Se applichiamo questo stesso metro di giudizio al momento della prima affermazione di Tefnakht nei confronti di Osorkon (ca. 740 a.C.), tenendo conto che anche in questo caso il vincitore ha, per dir così, ereditato tutte la cariche detenute dal vinto, sia quelle, in senso lato, sacerdotali, sia il titolo di grande capo dei Ma, non può non sorgere il dubbio che Tefnakht nulla avesse a che fare, quanto ad origine familiare, con l'etnia Meshuash, contrariamente a quanto ipotizzato da Yoyotte, ma che fosse un egiziano postosi a capo di forze autoctone intenzionate a liberarsi sia dei Ma che dei Libu."

In other words, Del Francia thinks that Tefnakht being either a Libu or Ma is less likely rather than being an Egyptian. And about the table, Tefnakht held the title of Great Chief of the Libu, and he appears consistently at the final place in similar tables by Berlandini and Kitchen. Him being of Libu descent or not does not change a thing, especially if his most likely ancestry is pointed out right above. Khruner (talk) 17:41, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're source is just confirming my remarks, Tefnakht was absolutely not of Libyan origin, and Del Francia has no doubt about it. He was absolutely not of Libyan origin, your contribution on the article is not relevant.

I'm sorry, but this Pharaoh was not Libyan, just an usurper who appropriated the titles of great leaders of the mas and libu, although he was not even descendant of one of these two tribes. Tefknaht has nothing to do in the Libu article.

I apologize for my level of English (I am Spanish-Algerian) TransfusionTropDark (talk) 18:50, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You probably had the text translated by Google translate or another prone-to-errors software. According from the text above, Yoyotte hypotized a Meshwesh origin for Tefnakht. More recently, Del Francia suggested rather an Egyptian descent. Those are both "reliable hypotheses" by scholars, unlike me or you. And other scholars like Kitchen and Berlandini put Tefnakht in their lists of Great Chiefs of the Libu, as the article did before your changes. I provided WP:reliable sources, but given the paragraph above, it seems that you provided your very personal belief instead. And stating that, in brief, "since Tefnakht was not Libyan, then he must be removed from the list of Great Chiefs of the Libu" even if he indeed held the title and scholars recognizes it, looks almost like WP:original research. Since you seems to be new, I suggest you to read the two links I put in this reply. Khruner (talk) 18:28, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your source indicates : there can not be no doubt that Tefnakht had nothing to do, as a family origin, with the ethnic Meshuash, contrary to what was hypothesised by Yoyotte

The hypothesis of yoyotte indicating that Tefknaht was possibly of meshwesh origin was decried by Del Francia, your own source, so either you have to use your source in its entirety, and you consider Tefknaht was not of Libyan origin.

Your source indicates of itself that Tefknaht was not of Libyan origin, although bearing the title of chief of the meshwesh and libu.

I do not even know why we have this debate, Tenakht was not even of Libyan origin, and you have changed my contribution on the article Libou, while it was correct. TransfusionTropDark (talk) 19:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I thought, original meaning was lost in translation, because Google Translate or whatever is still flawed in translating such verbose Italian sentences. The original meaning is that the statuette led the author in having doubts about Tefnakht being of Meshwesh ethnicity as Yoyotte believed. He is not certain at all, and considers more likely that Tefnakht was rather an Egyptian. I only slightly rearranged the first part of your edit mostly because it was rather clumsy and absolutist. The real issue is the table. Tefnakht belongs in the table without being Libyan in at least the same way that Darius I belongs to the 27th Egyptian Dynasty without being an Egyptian. Khruner (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, the writings of Del Francia are clear, it indicates that the 24th dynasty was neither meshwesh, nor Lebu, it also refutes the theory of Yoyocotte (who suppose that this dynasty was meshwesh. It is Yoyotte's texts which constituted this theory, which say that Tefkanht could have been of Meshwesh origin, not Del Francia, which indicates that Tefnakht was not Libyan, neither lebu nor meshwesh, and says that Yoyotte theory is not true). Del Francia has no doubt about the fact that the dynasty of Tefnakht was not Libyan

Your source indicates: "there can not be no doubt that Tefnakht had nothing to do, as a family origin, with the ethnic Meshuash, contrary to what was hypothesised by Yoyotte"

There is no translation error.

As a result, I will revert your contribution in the article. TransfusionTropDark (talk) 15:22, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is a double negation, which loosely could be translated as "a doubt cannot-not arise (double negation, meaning that such doubt do arises) that Tefnakht had nothing to do with the Meshwesh ethnicity." You stubbornly keep misusing a source written in a language that you obviously can't read (Italian) for the purpose of providing what I'm starting to believe is your personal point of view. Del Francia never states that Tefnakht was surely not Libyan, deal with it. Khruner (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]