User talk:Underlabourer

the date of the PhD

I changed this back to 2009, but I'm not sure if that's right. My source is what David Held says when he is introducing Saif Gaddafi at the Miliband lecture in May 2010. This link. I know that all papers reported 2008. If you look at the dissertation itself it says it was submitted in September 2007. Lord Desai, in Hindustan Times, says that Gaddafi Jr. submitted the thesis but that the examiners made him revise and resubmit it, and this presumably explains the delay. All of this matters since the LSE accepted a donation from Gaddafi's Foundation in June 2009. If he indeed did not have a PhD by that time, accepting the donation must be regarded as very compromising. Great if we could find more information on this!Erik 14:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Dear Underlabourer, please stop changing the date of the PhD back and forth. I don't want to engage in a WikiWar over this issue. As the PhD itself makes clear it was submitted in September 2007. As Lord Desai makes clear it had to be revised before it could be accepted. As this Times article explained in Sept, 2009, the dissertation was filed with Senate House the "previous autumn." According to David Held himself, "Saif al-Gaddafi got his PhD in 2009." I presume, however, that was a temporary memory lapse on Held's part.Erik 10:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erikringmar (talk • contribs)

Dear Erikringmar. I have not simply been undoing your changes in Wikiwar fashion. Rather, I've provided the rationale for the revisions I've made. As you now acknowledge, there is some doubt as to what we can infer from the available evidence. We'll get closer to the truth, including the limits of what we can infer from the available evidence, through a collective process of gradual revisions. It is clear that the version of the thesis that is in the public domain is dated as submitted in September 2007. What is unclear is whether this is the original version or the final, revised version. You provide some evidence (i.e., a sentence in the Times) that it is the former. But the thesis that was deposited in the LSE library and digitized would be the final, revised version rather than the original, unrevised version. University libraries are not in the practice of keeping copies of unrevised PhD theses that have not yet been accepted. If, moreover, you're right that the September 2007 version is the unrevised version, why are you happy to list the publication date of that thesis as 2008? Surely, on your version of events, it makes no sense to link to the unrevised version and list its publication date as 2008, unless you think that university libraries publish unrevised theses that haven't yet been accepted. --Underlabourer (talk) 14:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Dear Underlabourer and Msrasnw, apologies for accusation of Wikiwarfare. I shouldn't have said that. It was just that you changed things without providing a rationale. A Msrasnw points out, dating a PhD is difficult, with many different dates involved, but the LSE page mentioning 2009 is unambiguous (and it fits with what Held says when introducing him). For now, though, couldn't we simply agree, as I've tried to indicate in the latest version of the page, that the issue remains unresolved? Meanwhile, lets remember why this is important -- if the LSE received the huge donation before Gaddafi Jr received his degree, it would constitute and outright bribe.Erik 04:37, 17 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erikringmar (talk • contribs)