User talk:Zyxoas/Archives/Archive1

Old talk ZyXoas: User:Zyxoas/User Talk ZyXoas

ZyXoas lives! 'He lives I say!!!

On the move

How ordinary! I thought you'd go for ZyXoaS! Hope the moves are as you wish: tell me if not - tho of course you'll be able to fix them to your heart's content shortly. Alas I can't move your old user page, because some weirdo already has a page named "User:Zyxoas" :-D. But I've listed it at Wikipedia:Requested moves, so some kind admin is probably sorting it as you read. HELLO KIND ADMIN! JackyR 17:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry. Hot babes? And I had you down as a moftie (all the nicest men are... *sigh*). ;-) JackyR 17:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Right mate, all done that I can do. JackyR 17:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Bro in the army

Yeh, that's pretty much what I thought. But there's nothing like going straight from a passing out parade at Sandhurst to a Stop the War demonstration to make you face up to the dichotomy in your feelings about the armed forces (on balance, do I want a military force? Yes - armed or not, it is occasionally v useful indeed). And since the politicians who forced us into Iraq were democratically elected, the actual responsibility lies with me, the voter (regardlesss of whom I voted for). So alas no cosy liberal anti-military cop-out for me. JackyR 23:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Whereas my bit of the world is littered with defences from the last 2000 years or so. God knows why - has anyone told them about the weather here?! But I guess if you're French, Dutch or German it's just as bad there... :-) On the way to school I passed within half a mile of a Roman fort, three medieval castles, five or six Napoleonic forts, and more WWII pillboxes and stuff than you can shake a stick at. In fact, the school was built on a WWII bomb site. So I guess it's always been a bit more real for me. But yes, these are things to be borne, not fetished - and certainly not abused... JackyR 23:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sesotho

I've been ill, so I haven't been able to reply. You seem to consider that my edits to the article were something more than they really were. Most of my edits were a tidying up of the layout. The few places where I did change the information about Sesotho phonology was where it was contradictory: I'm sorry if any of this 'tidying' exercise introduced error. Your recent edits to the article look good though. ? Gareth Hughes 18:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your comments about incorrect information, Wikipedia is a work in progress, and sometimes we have to make a best guess based on available sources. I've always tried to go back and correct guesses that I later found not to be right. Here aresection that were commented out, uncommented, so that you can work on them. They are drawn from a universal template for language articles, so some of them may not be appropriate or may have been superceded in this specific case. I've put them in a table so that they do not get confused with other posts. ? Gareth Hughes 09:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

New working page

Right, I've dumped the Sesotho stuff at User:Zyxoas/Sesotho. Sorry to be piddling around with your user space like this - I hope the result is OK by you! Right, that's me for the day! Have a good w/e ;-) JackyR 14:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops. This user understands only words of one or fewer syllables... :-/ JackyR 15:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This isn't me, I'm not really logged on... But my avatar suggests starting at Wikimedia Commons Help - there's a box on the LHS RHS [there are times when you shouldn't listen to anything I say...] with what may be useful links, and it's definitely where to put your HelpMe. Really and truly off to rest now...|-| JackyR 16:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Not forgotten, not even gone

Yep, haven't forgotten your linguistic stuff - either explicitly for Mopane worm or otherwise. But I find I've spread myself rather thin (only on WP, you understand - in real life I'm expanding at a rate of knots with this sedentary lifestyle), and am now working reactively. Macimbi shot to the top of the list cos its been put up for Featured Article. Which means the library books I borrowed in February to finish Thames and Medway Canal are going to be renewed for the 4th time... Right, must get on, have an article on caterpillars to work on ~^~^~^* JackyR 15:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Music of Nigeria#Popular music for a) a truly classic way of laying out audio links, and b) a link to Wikipedia:Media_help, which I guess I should also use (tried briefly but couldn't play the Olatunji - but my Mac ain't set up for music at all). Munch, munch. JackyR 16:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Teach?! Where did I admit to teaching?! School mentioned above was as a kid. But, er, yeh, I'm afraid my dirty secret is that I used to be a maths teacher. (Which is what I was doing there.) I'd like to say, "But I'm better now", but in fact, guess why I have ME... However, requests to tutor friends' kids have shown I don't remember any maths, so I guess I'm a fair way to rehabilitation ;-) JackyR 14:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Crazed stalker bloke

Hah. Now who's at it?! Great Zimbabwe: are you really, really sure about the Lemba speaking Tshivenda? I ask because language politics in Zimbabwe can be a bit nasty, with a first-generation version of "A language is just a dialect with an army." Certainly while I was there (mid-90s), there were accounts of Harare-based Shona speakers being deeply disparaging towards other dialects: "They can't speak properly, don't know the real word for X", etc. The statement in Shona language about equality sounds like a response to this problem - but also sounds like an official line which could conceal a continuing reality. (Cynical? Me?) And of course it's politically important to the (massively Shona-speaking) current government to claim Great Zim as "theirs". So making statements like, actually it "belongs" to a language group sufficiently distinct to be recognised by your neighbour is, well, scary. Got a ref?

Hmm, so what do you think of the Jewish Lemba stuff? I admit I hadn't followed it up, thinking it would be more Queen of Sheba fantasy stuff. JackyR 16:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Relax, I only asked that guy for refs cos he'd added stuff and was a newbie (training him, you see), plus I have plans for the future of that article - with your help, I hope. I've barely worked on it since I met you (I think adding a quote I had to hand), and really can't do it now - there's this manic bloke who keeps me incredibly busy with all his language and other stuff! It's on my mental to-do list (I stopped adding to my written list because it was too long...), at which point I will fall at your wise feet and say, "Phew, when did you last change your socks?" ;-D I truly don't know where you get the energy - and you're studying... I'm now going to lie in a darkened place, cos all that inching along twigs yesterday tired me out (*plop* as falls from tree). JackyR 16:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Borat? My homeboy? Well, almost! Looks like he arrived just when I left... Ta for the genetics - I did check out those articles, after you'd pointed me to them (just not before). Totally with you: v interesting, but not conclusively Jewish.

Btw, have checked the categories for Mapungubwe. I think it might be the "World heritage sites in Africa" cat that's anomalous: all the others are by country, not continent. So Mapungubwe is in "World heritage sites in South Africa", a sub cat of "World heritage sites", as it should be.

Work again, I think . Must get back into synch by Sunday... Actually, you're sounding a bit manic today as well – whatever you're smoking, I want some :-) Catch yer termorrer. JackyR 22:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Prodding the tiger

Please sir, I didn't mean it. The smoking was one o' them joke-thingies ("Descartes? Whatever he was smoking, I want some...").

But the language thing wasn't (tho it probably wasn't v competent either). My understanding of language issues is nothing like yours. But I do feel that there is no difference between languages and dialects except the issue of power (interrelated with codifying the language). And the language politics in Zimbabwe are complicated, I think even more so than RSA. South Africa (as far as my puny knowledge goes) has gone from appalling but simple language values to a situation where the politics and importance of language are openly discussed and the horrors of the past give a very clear marker of what to avoid. Zimbabwe, on this as on so many things, Won't Talk about it: if you've ever doubted the value of the TRC, take a look what happens when you don't have one. (Oh, god, now feel I must bomb-proof this as well: obviously, lack of a TRC hasn't caused Zim's current crisis, but the lack of open, honest discussion, and of facing uncomfortable truths, is the environment which has allowed abuses by different parties (NOT in the political sense) to continue to thrive after Independence as they did before. Fundamentally, I don't think Zim has asked the question "What sort of nation do we want to be?" in the same way as South Africa.)

Btw, going direct to Mark is the right thing: I've been trying to get my head round your language stuff with the intention of passing it to him, as there's no way I would trust myself to incorporate most of that without supervision from you both. But the older bits keep getting submerged by the new (and by trivial corrections to C11th philosophers which unaccountably go nuclear... but that wasn't you).

Talking of which (if I'm still on your Christmas card list), I got as far as Kgotla last night. Yeh, the entries would be pretty short to have separately, when the meaning is related. Was planning to check out the format for putting two distinct meanings on one page (horiz line?), but actually, now I think more, I realise they might both be dic-defs, rather than WP articles. Hmm. Watch that space... JackyR 13:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

So my next Q

Would be: is the meaning of lekgotla in Sesotho the same as the Botswana English meaning? Just to give a bit of etymology (nearly said entomology...), cos the article kinda invites the Q. À bientôt, JackyR 14:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

PS, what's the edition or date of your ODSAE? Or do I need the whole publisher citation thing? Whichever you can be bothered with. Ta JackyR 14:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

PPS. While you've got the ODSAE out, could you check the real etymology of mopane worm (rather than my dodgy attempt)? Sorry to be throwing lots at ya today... JackyR 14:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Smoking gun

Sorry about that. Wouldn't have joked if I'd known it was a prob.

Yeah, I am aware of the whole "divide-and-rule" jobby - implemented with such vile precision in the Old SA. It permeates so much - in fact, any post-colonial (actually all regions of) discourse about language, identities, "nation" etc is contaminated by it. It may be good that we have to pick terms very carefully, and fully consider our words, because it's better in the long run. But right now I feel trapped and sickened by the assumptions of that discourse. I had to partially re-write the § about Zim above because, on re-reading, I realised it was possible (still is) to assume that I was using coded words to refer to "race", "tribalism" - all the ghastly tools. Actually, I'm just going to stop, because the topic is both horrid, and horrid to write about. Sorry for bringing it up.

Le/kgotla means court? Aha! There's something I've been blithely ignorant of: I'd been and gone and assumed it was more like indaba. Yeah, still trying to lure Irene to help more with WP - seems she has a life, instead :-) JackyR 19:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

PS Does inkundla exist in English? Do you know enough about the previous/current functioning of one to make a linked article? JackyR 19:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Revert

sorry about that I thought it was a IP screwing with your page, :) :) Betacommand 20:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Update

No, no big Qs that I can think of - although of course that changes every time I get up to my ears in something. I'm trying to fulfill promises for a while, rather than make any, so am working through backlogs with you, with a couple of projects and on Wikiquote. The African language survey is going to be OK, because I've found RSA sources (eg online newspapers) showing the usages you prefer - it's just a Q of time to write these up. DON'T WASTE your precious online time on it.

You're welcome to change Mbiti, or leave it till I go back thru the refs to find an indisputable descrip for him. But if you had more about his book that would be a good addition. I just busked it from your comments and the other sources. Sorry to reply so late, JackyR 22:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Mmm. Have looked through the Mbiti material and can't find an easy way to describe him. And I'm not 100% clear on the problem – are you worried that "African religious philospher" could be taken to mean "philosopher of African religion"? (The joys of an uninflected language...) In which case, "African philospher of religion" might solve the prob.

Just "writer" is too weak, as he has held research posts on "religion in Africa". Though his motivations are blatantly Christian – he makes no bones about that – does this mean his work is not philosophy? The little I've seen of it [1] suggests more than yer av'rage parish priest...

And of course this is the long Q you should have had B4 today's computer access. Oh well. If you can come up with a good re-phrasing, I'll put it in, no Qs asked... ;-) JackyR 23:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh god yeh. OK, I've made it "African Christian philospher", as the word Xtian was not in the intro, and added a bit lower down to make (I hope) even clearer where the guy is coming from. As ever, one has to be a critical reader...

You realise many sources are going to be like this? I once travelled with a French sociologist who was reading C19th missionary publications on south east Asia - as she said, "These guys were so keen to understand the local religions in order to convert their adherents, that these publications now offer the most detailed descriptions available of C19th religious practice" (because of course, if you're a member of a religion/culture, etc you don't record every last detail - you live it). I live in hope that there will be sufficient other writings to cite for African history, etc (praise the lord for the modern RSA universities - and indeed Harare Uni), but I fear some tightrope walking is inevitable, where we're forced back on a blatantly biased source without becoming complicit with its assumptions. Still, I'm sure you'll put the boot in every time I get it wrong...JackyR 14:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Q: if you have access to the book, does Mbiti specify where his fieldwork was carried out? I'd guess E Africa but can't say so without being sure. I don't want to feed the assumption that Africa = homogenous mass (even if his observations do have resonance elsewhere). JackyR 14:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How African? A good question. However, unless you're into the exclusionary model of identities ("you're definitely X, so you can't possibly be Y"), it might be accurate to say he is Afro-Swiss. I'd guess he's used both identities to create his later publications: formative years + 10 yrs' teaching in E. Africa; US/UK/Swiss experience to understand the agendas going on in "Western" Christianity. But the Swiss bit post-dates his seminal work, so I'm inclined to down-rate it for the purposes of this article where his notability rests on his work. (And let's be honest, would you claim Mark Thatcher as South African? Yeuch!),

And there's just a teeny weeny bit of irony in trying to pin this bloke down to an identity, when (at least) one of us is so vehemently opposed to any notion of such... :-) JackyR 15:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably being thick, but I really can't get what you mean, or how the eg applies to Mbiti. Read that essay again (has biographical stuff), and explain to me in words of one syllable?

That's Mma Rodzh to you!

Just as I'd decided that, tho obviously you were wrong, I was abusing your lack of access and should implement your views regardless of my own opinion! Even if you were only claiming no true African would write like that about religion... :-P Have sent you an email, as I try to avoid being searchable on WP (rather more personal than Amazon), but if this doesn't work, prod me again and I'll put it up here.

I've never seen the staffroom empty so fast as when one of the Zambians produced a packet of kapenta... But it's interesting what you say about not eating totemic animals (and good to know I can use the word without being roasted, as I need to add "ba-Phuti" to Batswana): does one only avoid one's own totem?

Another email on the way. JackyR 20:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

"Sejatlhapi"? Well it beats being called "Sekgoa"... JackyR 20:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Incoming

Yup, two emails got through: "Test 2" and "test 2 norm". Neither had any body text... JackyR 16:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

re: Stupid Girls

A teacher got offended and I almost got sent to the office. Jack Zhang 03:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

WikiProjects et al

Hi, the info you added at Talk:Bantu languages looks interesting, but as you suspected I don't really know enough about African linguistics to do anything with it. Joining WikiProjects is easy, just go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Participants and Wikipedia:WikiProject Phonetics#Participants and sign your name. Angr (talk • contribs) 13:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

An article Proto-Bantu language would be a great idea, but I'm not in a position to write it myself. Angr (talk • contribs) 14:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Depends. Do you know there even is an English translation of it? How close are you to the nearest university library? I don't know where in South Africa you are, but I know the University of the Witwatersrand has a pretty good linguistics department, they might be able to help you. Angr (talk • contribs) 14:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

No idea. Maybe you should contact a professor in the linguistics department first, say that you're not a student but you're interested in books on Proto-Bantu, and is there anything they can recommend, and can they get you into the library so you can read it? The library probably won't let you check it out, but they'll probably let you sit there and read it, maybe even make a photocopy. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay. If you do decide to contact someone first, you might pick a name from one of these pages: Discipline of African Languages, Discipline of Linguistics. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You might also want to check out the homepage of the library and see if you can find out if the even have the book you're looking for first. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh, that I can't tell you. Maybe don't volunteer the information, but if they ask why you're interested, you could mumble something about Wiki*cough*ia. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Couldn't be bothered?!

Cheeky so and so! Of course I've looked at it - it's doing something that's the problem. For example, I logged on probably an hour ago, and haven't yet checked my Watchlist because I've been working through your reqs for Basutoland, doing Google searches on some to see if they were historical spellings or just typos. And these are the easy ones, because they don't require much knowledge of the subject. All of the linguistic stuff is difficult for me: I have to learn enough about the subject to understand where to integrate it, and to work out where you're, ahem, stating things more strongly than might be useful for the reader.

Eg, I've made the changes exactly as you said at "Basutoland", but in fact I ain't happy with removing historical (mis)spellings entirely (tho they should be labelled as such), because it means readers working with historical documents can't find the article. Which apart from anything else means any eejit with the accursed 1911 EB thinks there isn't an article and goes and creates one. So it makes things worse, not better. I'd go off and research the historical spellings, but instead I'm going to spend today on bits of backlist. The flip side of getting me to do stuff is you have to wait till I get there - and currently you're producing it a lot faster than I can deal with it. How much does a connection cost again? Can I get you one for your birthday?!!! JackyR 15:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Right. Made changes, asked more Qs at Qwaqwa. Re Bakoena, etc, I'll certainly put those up as AfD if you're sure, but wouldn't it be better to fix the junk linking to them than execute the innocent articles? But I'll follow your lead on this. JackyR 16:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Man, that's rubbish about the assignment dates. Go complain! It must have happened to everyone. And if they do it again you could be really stuffed. They can be pretty bad here, too. My neighbour is a uni administrator and can't believe the slackness of some of her colleagues (including the academic staff)...Rodzh? Pronounce my surname with a Botswana accent! Maybe it shd be written Rodzhe, but to the British ear there's only one syllable! (Like, "Teach' , I'm cold, may I get my jers'. ") JackyR 20:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm...

So, the thing with you is that I can't tell if you're taking the piss... But have a nice Wiki-break! JackyR 16:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject: countering systemic bias

Hi Zyxoas, I wonder if you might be able to help - I'm writing an article for openDemocracy about the Wikiproject:countering systemic bias. I'd like to get some quotes from Wikipedians about why they're involved, what they're working on and some other general issues. I wonder if you'd be willing to talk to me over email? Mine is daviddariusbijan@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks,

David

86.133.23.227 18:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yo, Dave, I hope you read this. I'll do my very best to help you but I can't really send e-mails since I'm accessing the internet ON MY CELLPHONE (I kid you not!). I'm busy trying to hustle myself a Gmail invite (they have a dedicated WAP service). So we could have a conversation here in the meanwhile? I'll send you a (faulty) e-mail and see if you get the hint. This is going to be very interesting, ja? 216.239.58.136 21:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea, my goode fellow, clicketh hither: User:Zyxoas/Talk:Dave. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 22:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Exchange

Hey again :) Okay this has nothing to do with wikipedia... And I know you're Sotho (well, I'm guessing so if your name's Tebello) but how would you like to help me out with Zulu? Since you seem to speak it fluently and I'm finding teaching myself from books pretty frustrating. Email pen-pals? Let me know if you have the time, many thanks, Al. Joziboy 16 April 2006, 14:49 (UTC)

Kulungile. Anginenkinga... Ngicela ukuzijwayeza nje.

As for the translation of the template - I did that! Why's it terrible? Joziboy 16 April 2006, 18:52 (UTC)

Well, I suppose by "user" they mean "user of wikipedia". But ja what you say makes sense - what would be the correct way to phrase it then? Also, how would you have five levels (from absolute beginner to fluency) if there are only two possible phrases ("he knows how to speak" and "he speaks") Joziboy 16 April 2006, 19:30 (UTC) Oh, and ukuzijwayeza ngeposi

Okay. They say: "This user is able to contribute with a basic knowledge of English" And the plural: "These users are able to contribute with a basic knowledge of English" And then in place of "Basic" there are these levels: Basic, intermediate, advanced, near-native, native.... and obviously, it would be Zulu, not English :) Joziboy 16 April 2006, 19:57 (UTC)

Zulu names

Nope, I had no idea it was Sesotho - I thought it was common to all SA indigenous groups, since Thabo Mbeki has that name too. But I'll remove it then. I got that list from a discussion forum on a Zulu language website that I use. I'd appreciate if you could check it? Joziboy 17 April 2006, 13:12 (UTC)

Come now, it's your home language - I'm sure you'll manage to translate into it! I meant can you check that list of Zulu names to make sure I've got the meanings right, and that they're Zulu. I can't find revolucion's profile - you sure that's how you spell it? Joziboy 17 April 2006, 14:10 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for the help on that article :) I've changed the things you recommended. I found Revolucion's page, I'll work on translating the Zulu boxes the way you've done the Sesotho ones. Joziboy 17 April 2006, 21:57 (UTC)

Better is good...

Glad to hear it. Tho' I think of you more as Dennis than Gnasher :o). The reason I have ME is that I buggered my health working full-time throughout the original illness, for years. So now my body's getting its own back. (All bloomin' Easter wk/end in bed, and prob rest of week. Ho hum.) Would talk more on this, but WP's kinda public (even I get shy sometimes!). So just glad you're doing things the sensible way, and are back to form. JackyR 20:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Think Honkers didn't. Or try Muslim countries if you really want to work that extra day (tho of course the religious hols balance out). What would I rather have been doing? Gardening! Easter here means spring! (Or is supposed to, ha ha). If you ever spend winter and spring in a temperate northern country, you'll suddenly understand what great swathes of Western culture are on about. March to May-ish, the weather gets warmer but the rain continues (actually, it never really stops in the UK...), so the plants leap out of the earth and there's this beautiful smell of fresh, green, growing things. It makes you want to throw the windows and doors open, rush outside and start planting things. The fields are full of calves, lambs and foals and the birds are nesting. The whole "spring cleaning" and "Easter rebirth" thing is tangible. It's like the feeling you folks get when the rains come - but subtly different, because it's relief from the cold, not from the heat. JackyR 23:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish

Irish people and Scottish people are so ethnically alike it's hard to tell them apart. Northern French people are Celtic too. And what the hell are you on about blonde hair for??? Irish, Scottish and French are generally dark haired!-Kyuky

Zulu boxes

Hey again. Alright I tried working with the wording that you had for the Sesotho boxes - are these any better?

• This user is able to contribute with a basic level of Zulu.

Lo muntu ukwazi ukubhala isiZulu kancane.

• This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of Zulu.

Lo muntu ukwazi ukubhala isiZulu kulungile.

• This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of Zulu.

Lo muntu ukwazi ukubhala isiZulu kulungisa.

• This user speaks Zulu at a near native level.

Lo muntu ukwazi ukubhala isiZulu kahle.

• This user is a native speaker of Zulu.

Lo muntu ukhuluma isiZulu.

Joziboy 20 April 2006, 18:05 (UTC)

Mmm, the online dictionary puts 'advanced' as 'on a higher level' : -phakeme But I don't really understand how these adjectives work. Should they be conjugated with ukubhala or with isiZulu or do they just stay general (Ku-)? Joziboy 23 April 2006, 21:18(UTC)

Hehe, thanks for bearing with me on this one. Right, well the dictionary has "level" as "izinga" - that sound right? I could ask someone on the Zulu language forum I use, but they're the people who helped me come up with the original boxes! Joziboy 25 April 2006, 21:14 (UTC)

Oh and as for Thabo being a Sotho name - it's definitely spreading in popularity - I know a Swiss guy called Thabo! :) And his brother's Kgomotso (is that also a Sotho name?). Play basketball for Switzerland. They're my partner's half-brothers.. Although they only speak French and a little English so won't help much with my Zulu! Joziboy 25 April 2006, 22:14 (UTC)

Oh okay. You relieved not to be doing that again? Saves having to do all that translating you hate :) Are Setswana and Sesotho mutually intelligible by the way? In the way that Nguni languages are. Um. Okay well I've just asked Sibusiso from www.isizulu.net who helps me with Zulu quite a lot - and he reckons that you would say Lo msebenzisi ukwazi ukusiza ezingeni lesiZulu zokuqala ie, the direct translation from English. Hmm. I have no idea. Yeah I have no idea what's up with the Afrikaans on the Zulu wikipedia. It looks really odd. Although sadly there's hardly anything on the Zulu wikipedia. I wrote a sentence on Joburg before giving up in frustration at how hard I find Zulu! Joziboy 26 April 2006, 19:55 (UTC)

Haha, sorry to hear you sound so stressed! You could just step away from wikipedia for a few days ;) Yeah okay okay - so ezingeni zesiZulu zokuqala. Joziboy 27 April 2006, 19:50 (UTC)

Congratulations!

Wow! That's fantastic! That'll keep you busy for a while... I'm barely on-line at all this week - not well - so wouldn't be up to doing anything with your answers anyway. Tak care and speak to ya soonish... Zzzzz JackyR 16:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Stuff

hello. Note the salutation. I gave one. Does that make me human? Yes. Partly. The need to acknowledge the other (in australopithecine/erectus times probably a wave across a distance or on approaching the other was some kind of signal - at the same time a sacrifice: making oneself also visible to predators, thus a valuable thing, a token for the other to accept or not). So, a salutation: literally a wish for the 'other' to enjoy health, though as we all know greetings (not salutations) can connote various things: think of Sa'ubona (I see you), Kia ora (it is life), Aloha (love), etc. Much as we try - honorably - to remove bias from language it's just not going to happen, people! We bring our baggage to the greeting as we (the greeter) make it, we receive the greeting from behind a screen of our own baggage (the greetee). Some of the baggage is unavoidable. Believe me, on seeing another human being we assess them within about a quarter of a second as to: the sex, age, health and potential for the other to be a friend or an enemy or a sexual partner. That is the human heritage. Further, on opening our mouths to give the salutation we further convey our general mood, sex, age and health. By the way, Joziboy, what about the abamfazi? (I note your translation of 'user' is 'lo muntu') - no disrepect intended, just an example of how deeply entranched bias is within language. Keep up the good work.

Great swags of languages rely heavily on male and female nouns, verbs and decorations such as suffixes. Is it justified in order to convey information, you might ask. Not any more. Let us consider a hypothetical proto-European language being developed from an Anatolian ancestor (more of this in my upcoming book) over about 12000 years. The culture in which this langauge evolves is a totemic one: every object: tree, rock, stream, etc, is animated with its own spirit and fits into a vast pantheon. You the human must respect this world and adjust your language to fit with each object's sex and innate characteristics. And so the language descends to the modern version - sexist to the core. Do we need the animist respect which would necessitate such language. NO, unless you are in some kind of cult with ancient shamanistic roots. But the effort needed to change it! My God! (see!). Would someone please change German!! Why on earth must we put up 'derjenem' for example, as if der, die and das weren't bad enough. I do rattle on a bit - sorry. Ho Lang Sap, you may be barking into your midnight cocoa. Fair enough. I, for one, am fond of language's little quirks, sexist or not, and take very little seriously, in language or out of it. Lgh 04:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC) (egeneiios ageii)

Re:Sesotho translation

Greetings Zyxoas!

I removed all those funny marks on the vowels and have changed all the edits to the proper manner of writing. Now you can help me elaborate this article. -- Jose77 (talk), 03:17 Thursday 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Lesson number 2: if your source was written by someone from Lesotho, then you should probably convert all li to di, lu to du, ts (where the s has a circumflex) to tsh, kh to kg, and ch to tjh. It's more difficult deciding when to change o and e to w and y. I'd like the Wiki to be written in South African orthography. "Luka", however, is one exception. Admittedly, many religious books, even in SA, are written in LS (eg "Qhobosheane" the Sesotho version of the JW "Lighthouse"). User:Zyxoas.

I get your message - Perhaps I should find someone else to help me translate that article (because you are obviously disinterested or just too busy to help out). Sorry for bothering you in the first place. -- Jose77 (talk), 03:17 Thursday 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Sesotho

I've left a note at User talk:Angela#It was a joke! putting in a good word for you, but don't joke about vandalizing anymore! As for Sesotho vs. seSotho, I don't understand what the problem is that you've been having, so I don't know how to help you solve it. Angr (talk • contribs) 08:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, apparently only a developer can change seSotho to Sesotho. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

seSotho/Sesotho

Hello,

the problem is that the original request asked for the language name to be seSotho, and I have no way to decide which of you is right. Some explanation could help to convince me. -- JeLuF 00:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

life in cyberspace

There appears to be life in cyberspace. I am interested in the Nguni languages hatred of dipthongs - I didn't know there was an ancient Nguni orthography! Having heard the term throughout my childhood I cannot recall a clear 'w' sound at all; more like a glottal stop ie as I wrote it: sa'ubona. Without getting silly about it and of course I defer to your up-to-date knowledge, let me give you a little cameo as to how these things may evolve. My Grandpa bought in the 70's a copper bracelet to help his arthritis. On the side was engraved 'Sabona'. In the fervid/fervent/perfervid/febrile days of the mid-70's when I was still what one might call 'young' it became politically correct to use the spelling Sa'ubona for the singular vocative. Now it has evolved even further. Sigh. Like the word 'silly' in fact, which used to mean blessed, from the germanic 'salig' as in "Oh, du froehliche, oh, du salige, gnaden bringende Weinachtzeit.' However, because of the twitty, pious behaviour of the overly-religious (the 'salig') the word came to mean foolish. Dear me. As to the meaning of the word 'Maori' well it means 'normal' ! It can also mean usual or the 'usual way of doing things.' the word in various guises appears throughout Polynesia, eg ma'aoli. It came about because the tribes of NZ did not regard themselevs as one people when the whites arrived, in fact they were always at war with each other. When the whites asked them for a collective name they just said, well we are the normal people around here: the tangata Maori. By the way some experts spell it ma'aori becaue the 'a' is very long. The word for people is 'tangata' and again this is found with variations throughout the Pacific. To take the two extreme ends of the region for example: tangata whenua is Maori for the native or local people of a particular place. The equivalent term in Tagalog is 'tag banua.' this despite a separation of approx. 2000 years! Counting is similarly cognate still between Tagalog, Hawai'ian and Maori, just to add in a third corner of the Pacific. As to your question of my speaking Maori, well I did, and have now largely forgotten it. I can stumble along in about 8 languages and have a smattering of about 3 more. I tend to learn the local language when I sojourn there and then forget it when I move on. My first language was actaully ki'Swahili. Cheers, Lgh 05:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Zulu names

Hi :) Sorry yeah I've been away for a few days. Also, thought only moderators could remove tags - but I've taken them off. You running the Sesotho wiki from your phone still? Joziboy 3 May 2006, 16:12 (UTC)

Well if it helps with all the stress, I'm still in awe you can use a cellphone for all this. It took me about an hour to figure out how to change the 'vibrate' settings, let alone write webpages! I'm sure you'll get another chance at the goodnight kiss? :) Oh and what does ha e lale tau,phephi,ha e lale sebata mean? Joziboy 4 May 2006, 16:58 (UTC)

Cool, added it for you. Joziboy 6 May 2006, 11:47 (UTC)

Hey, I'm not gonna correct your English - I do it to all my friend and it annoys the hell out of them! :) (my mom used to teach it) so what does that Sesotho sentence mean? Joziboy 7 May 2006, 10:28 (UTC)

Sibusiso, the guy on isiZulu.net who was helping me translate the zulu boxes, said I should tell it to you... Don't really understand what it means even now that you've translated it for me though! :) Glad things are working out with the lady. See what time off wiki can do! Whereabouts do you stay in Jozi by the way? Joziboy 7 May 12:12 (UTC)

Not yet re-bounced...

Just a quick check-in, as I'm still rather flattened. Made it to town to do bank stuff, borrowed whizzy electric wheelchair from handy hire place, came back shattered. But it was a beautiful day, and good to be out. Soooo cool that you now have web access - still from your phone? You'll have Rubix-thumb... Am using Wiki for entertainment rather than real work at the moment: no mental heavy lifting, so still no progress on my ridiculous to do list. Must Archive... But I think I'll lie down again instead. Still, bro made it up Everest and, importantly, down again, so I guess we average out :-) Speak to ya.. soon. Zzzz xxxJackyR 19:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

SA Timeline

Thank you for your vote at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_South_African_history, the nomination for deletion has been withdrawn. --Jcw69 12:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Still alive

Hmm, I see the problem. Will attempt to re-programme the admin... Are you still unwell? Ooh isn't horrid having to "take things easy" when there's so much to do! I'm about to plunge back in more seriously, I hope - but you won't be insulted if I say I'm glad you've got Joziboy on-side for the linguistics?! xx JackyR 18:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

But easily confused.

OK, have posted to the developer. But don't understand bit about To Do list link. Which link, and which bit isn't working? Admittedly I try never to read the To Do list on my Userpage (no, really! Bet you never guessed!), but that's not what you mean, is it? JackyR 19:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh that! It's a potentially useful page on, as it says, interwikilinkng. After a long and unsuccessful trawl, I was told that boxes like this:

can be found at Wikipedia:Sister projects. So I suggested they state this explicitly at "Help:Interwiki linking", and gave myself a link, as I can't watch Meta. But no one agreed, and I didn't fancy getting beaten up by self-important Meta folk (naming no names), so it hasn't happened.

Think developer may be out to lunch (so to speak). No recent dialogues on his talk page (*drinks water* – thank you for the reminder). I'd tell you how I've been, but this is getting to be wikichondria! In fact I've been frittering away valuable wiki-time in the garden. And apparently you're wasting good editing time having a life! Outrageous! Who does this chick think she is! ;-D All the best for that... And now I have to go save the universe again (AfDs I foolishly wandered into a couple of nights when I couldn't sleep). TTFN JackyR 21:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sesotho

Glad you like the map. I read over the article - could only find one grammar mistake though. Looks pretty good to me. Although I don't really understand linguistic terms so I might have missed something. Joziboy 11 May 2006, 05:45 (UTC)

This may be way too pedestrian, but how about a section with some Sesotho phrases? You know, beginner stuff like "Hi, how are you?" "What's your name?" "I come from..." etc. Might help with making the page more user-friendly, like you wanted. Joziboy 15 May 2006, 18:40 (UTC)

Also, I see you have a page on Sotho languages. Excellent! I was just about to start one :) Maybe there could be a comparison between words from the three languages to illustrate their similarity? I'm going to do that for the Nguni languages when I have some time. After exams end on Wednesday I think! Joziboy 15 May 2006, 19:09 (UTC)

Ah okay, I just meant the three South(ern) African Sotho languages... but you're right that's probably a bit narrow-minded so include Serotse too (never heard of it myself). Yup I'll definitely need help with the Nguni comparisons - You know how below-par my Zulu is, and I have some books on Xhosa but the other two, I have no idea. What's the poem? I read your Sesotho layout... Eish, the garden boy comment? I just meant phrases for travellers visiting a region, which seems to be the norm (Ie, introductions, basic questions... Ngubani igama lakho kind of stuff) But a poem sounds good too! Joziboy 16 May 2006, 00:16 (UTC)

Prenasalised consonants vs. Nasal compounds

I guess they are just 2 ways of saying the same thing? Jacky's site (the one linked to at the bottom of Bantu languages) calls them "nasal compounds". So, how long before these links turn blue: Ur-Bantu, Proto-Bantu, Bantu Language Reconstructions (BLR), Bantu Language Reconstructions 2 (BLR2)? I guess it's not easy being a Bantuist with all these methods of comparing the languages? The info on the internet is very sparse and a bit inaccessible. Jacky's site is horribly outdated and the BLR2 site is an absolute nightmare! I still haven't gotten round to working out how to use that weird search engine. The info I put on the talk page for Bantu languages should be part of Ur-Bantu. I would need to do quite a bit of research to write that completely properly, so I won't be doing that anytime soon... How did your thesis go? It's still being evaluated, right? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are; it is my impression that 'prenasalised consonants' is a bit more common.

As for the red links, yeah, how long? Deeply immersed in Yoruba still, I'm not going to do it... Besides, I've never had a crush for historical-comparative linguistics really.

On a sidenote, I think it should be Bantu Lexical Reconstructions (and the name most tightly connected with the first version is A.E. Meeussen). The term Ur-Bantu dates from Carl Meinhof, but today the most common name for this is Proto-Bantu (also a red link, as you noted).

Oh boy, there is so much work to do... However, I suggest to read up on it first, because otherwise your results might be just a little too much biased towards Meinhof (which has long been superceded by more recent research, e.g. Meeussen, Guthrie, Bastin, Schadeberg, etc.) and South-African Bantu (Doke).A good place to start reading on these things would be Heine & Nurse's (2000) African languages. More detailed information can be found in Bendor-Samuel & Hartell's (1989) The Niger-Congo languages. And obviously you shouldn't miss the recent volume edited by Derek Nurse (2003), The Bantu languages.

<cough> and my thesis is almost ready... — mark ✎ 16:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

(copied discussion to your talk page, probably easier to read for you) — mark ✎ 10:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'll assume you're watching this page. Obviously it should be "Lexical"! I guess the fevers from this SARS that's killing me are making me delirious (or I'm simply an idiot). I don't think that Ur-Bantu = Proto-Bantu; weren't they described by 2 different people? About theses, do you have to refer to yourself in the 3rd person ("it is the humble opinion of this author...")? Yes, I think I should just buy myself tonnes of books - the Internet is not an appropriate teacher... -Zyxoas (don't ask..)

Also, you do know that "address" is spelt with 2 d's, e marc? Zyxoas 14:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I do know that, but my native language spelling interferes sometimes (in Dutch, it's adres). And no, I don't have to refer to myself in the 3rd person; as a matter of fact, I don't do it. To me, it's a matter of taste mainly and I like it if a bit of a personal voice shines through. From the perspective of the individual, science is not an objective, impersonal enterprise, so it is the humble opinion of the undersigned that one might as well be clear about that.

As for Ur/Proto, I'd say it's the same. Yes, the terms come from different authors, but they shared the goal of reconstructing some characteristics of the linguistic ancestor of the Bantu languages. It's just that the first variant can be traced back to German (Carl Meinhof) and the second one to English (Malcolm Guthrie). To date, the former has fallen out of use and everyone uses Proto-Bantu.

What about libraries? — mark ✎ 19:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, it's already a big enough schlep occasionally going to JHB to hand in my Unisa assignments (which I can't do tomorrow because I'm too sick); I'm not enough of a Wikiholic to consider repeatedly going to Wits University to spend the day in their extensive libraries (but I may yet do it...). I actually had to drop out of Wits in 2003 due to health problems caused by traveling like this daily (so going there also makes me feel a bit bad).

Okay. I guess I'll just believe you about Ur-Bantu and Proto-Bantu. BLR is really weird. It says the past tense suffix is "ide" where the d is expected to change in languages (usually to l, but is eg a retroflex tap in Tshivenda and some Northern Sesotho languages like that spoken by the subjects of the Rain Queen). I guess that's more accurate than Carl's suggestion that the languages inherited "ile" and changed it regularly? I know the protolang didn't exist, but the theory is elegant. Zyx 21:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Creature of the night

Apparently my talk page needs archiving. No, really. Hmm, I get what you're saying about the clan articles. Will look at them from that perspective later today (like, real morning) - maybe there's a way of avoiding the D'nR structure without losing scarce Africa info. *yawn* Perhaps it really is bedtime. Sounds like you have malaria. Or TB. Or something nice. :-) See ya anon. JackyR 02:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

PS Would you like me to archive yours too, when I get round to mine? How much of it, if so? Signed, the slug JackyR 02:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Nguni

Um okay. Well maybe just some words and/or phrases that would be very similar in all four, and then some phrases which would be quite different (in order to show that they're not in fact just dialects of one another)... So, for example. Ngithanda ikhaya lethu elisha (is that the right word order? Or is it elisha then lethu?) in Zulu --> Ndithanda ikhaya lethu elitsha in Xhosa. Do you know what that would be in Siswati and Ndebele?

Then some consistent/easy to recognise differences: Ngi (Zulu) --> Ndi (Xhosa). L and N get switched around: Kubili --> Kubini, isiBhunu --> isiBhulu etc. The dropped 'i' from "mina" that you mention on Sesotho... Are all the differences in vocabulary? Or are there grammatical differences? And what's with Xhosa double vowels at the beginning of words? "ootata", "iindoda"? And then, yeah, maybe a phrase which is very different in all four. Joziboy 16 May 2006, 12:13 (UTC)

Silver bells and cockle shells, of course!

What does my garden grow? Man, now you're in trouble (much nicer than that wretched Afghanistan article - how did I get sucked in again...). Well. The garden is about 3.5 m by 10 m, and a third of that is concrete. But the rest! The previous owner was a true gardener and had packed every inch w something. We have an apple tree and a cherry tree, which have just finished blossoming, and a white lilac which has just started. More roses than I can cope with (many self-seeded dog roses, usually just where I'm weeding - ouch). A rosemary about 2 m tall, which just ain't natural, and the usual herb collection: lavender (2 types), sage, mint (2 types), French tarragon, thyme and bay. Also rhubarb (yummy) and apparently various lilies and iris, but the slugs usually chew those off at ground level, so I've never seen 'em. And the whole place is covered with self-propagating strawberry plants: again, the slugs get more fruit than I do. And then assorted jasminum nudiflorum, summer jasmine, forsythia, honeysuckle, philadelphus (2 types), and a bloody great spiky plant in the middle. And I think I've killed the 2 lavatera by cutting them back too hard last year. And I've now got seeds coming up of tomato, marigold, vygies, sunflower and something I didn't label (oops...).

Well, you asked... JackyR 16:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Triffids? I had nightmares for years after watching that. Still, at least I sleep on the first floor now, and as we all know, Daleks can't climb stairs... JackyR 13:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Top of my to do list...

...for some time – even above archiving – has been finding out how Wiki awards work. So I can do this:
Are you still on a PC, or shall I move it to your user page? ;-) JackyR 14:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjje3eejejejejejejwlkJj gfdsgdmldfs,,MFF, VV,MXCV,MVZ.X,C.VMWEF/;JASKLJAJLSKLJFakfjkf