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1271 Avenue of the Americas

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1271 Avenue of the Americas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about another skyscraper in New York City. This office building, constructed for the Time and Life Company, opened in 1960 as part of an expansion of Rockefeller Center. It's distinctive not so much for its exterior (which resembles any other 1960s office building in NYC), but for its whimsical modern interiors, which include a serpentine pavement, steel-and-marble walls, and burgundy glass ceilings. The building also featured a dining club, stores, and even an auditorium. Perhaps the design of the interiors is why the building was nearly fully occupied a year after it opened.

This page became a Good Article three years ago after a Good Article review by A person in Georgia, for which I am very grateful. After some more recent copyedits, I think the page is up to FA quality. I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joeyquism

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I'll get to this in the coming days. joeyquism (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Below are some comments on prose, most of which are nits; feel free to refuse with justification:

Lead

  • "The lobby contains serpentine floors; white-marble and stainless-steel walls; reddish-burgundy glass ceilings; and artwork by Josef Albers, Fritz Glarner, and Francis Brennan." - I think that the semicolons here should be replaced with commas, though I recognize that this is technically proper usage as the last clause itself contains a list with commas. Just a small grammatical nitpick on my part.
  • The first instance of Time Inc. should be wikilinked. Premature apologies for further comments on wikilinking - I recognize that it can be a bit of a nuisance to the nominator and that there are certain MOS standards that should be upheld with regards to it, though I will try to keep it to a minimum here.
  • "Construction started in May 1957; the building was topped out during November 1958; and occupants began moving into their offices in late 1959." - In this case, however, the second semicolon should be a comma, as the last clause is not independent (contains "and").

Site

  • No glaring issues.

Architecture

  • I happened to be familiar with Syska Hennessy for reasons I am not too sure of at the moment; however, to someone who may be unfamiliar, it could appear to be a person with a rather unconventional name. Would mentioning that it's an engineering firm (or just a firm/company) be worth it here, in your opinion?
  • Wikilink Limestone in "1271 Avenue of the Americas' facade is made mostly of glass, which at the time of the building's construction cost the same as a wall made mostly of limestone."
  • Wikilink Canopy (architecture) in "At ground level, there is a canopy over the 51st Street entrance." I won't include further comments on wikilinking from here, though I would suggest it be done for the more technical terms such as emissivity, parapet and terrazzo. I will leave the determination of what could be considered technical up to you, unless more elaboration is requested. Hoping this isn't too big a bother :( I realize that I'm being rather pedantic here.
  • "Internally, 1271 Avenue of the Americas was divided into eight zones for air-conditioning." - Is this currently how the building is set up, or has there been further development here (as of right now, I am not sure whether the upgrade in 1957 was done to address this division). I think that "initially" between "was" and "divided" would be a good disambiguation, though if it's set up like this now, perhaps change "was" to "is".
  • "The ceiling throughout the lobby is 16 ft (4.9 m) high. The ceiling is made of dark maroon glass tiles, finished in a matte covering, with white lighting coves in some tiles." - Perhaps these can be combined into one sentence?
  • "The interiors were designed by Alexander Girard and furniture by Charles Eames." - In contrast to my previous supplications that other terms be wikilinked, I will suggest that the names of the designers be unlinked to avoid too-close duplicate linking.
  • "This arrangement was inspired by the PSFS Building in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania." - In its current location, this sentence feels a bit out of place, as the arrangement hasn't been described other than the footage of the floors and the presence of columns. Perhaps this could go at the end of the paragraph instead, or could be expounded upon with regards to how it was the column arrangement that was inspired by the Philly building.
  • No further issues with the rest of the section.

History

  • Apologies, I lied. David Sarnoff has an article you could wikilink in "NBC ultimately dropped out of the project because its CEO, David Sarnoff, dissented."
  • "In addition, Major League Baseball moved its headquarters to the building,[162][163] and it leased two stories in the building's base for use as an MLB Store, which opened in 2020." - Should "MLB Store" be in title case here?
  • Rest of this section is straightforward and well-written.

Impact

  • No glaring issues.

@Epicgenius: It was a pleasure to read Hearst Tower when it was at FAC, and I'm glad to say the same for this article. This is looking to be in great shape already, and once my comments are addressed, I will likely come back to support. Looking forward to your responses, and I hope you're having a wonderful week so far. joeyquism (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Joeyquism, and hope you're having a good week as well. I'll take a look at these on Thursday. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joeyquism, thanks again for the comments. I've addressed all of your comments, and I added a few more relevant links (though I'll see if there are any other terms that I can link tomorrow). – Epicgenius (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks great! I won't hold you any longer for further wikilinking; I'm already glad to support this FAC for nomination. Hope you're having a great week so far! joeyquism (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pickersgill-Cunliffe

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Will have a read through soon. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pickersgill-Cunliffe, just a gentle reminder. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agh! Hope to be on this later today. Sometimes I need less of a nudge and more of a shove... Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pickersgill-Cunliffe, a hearty shove. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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Have one other to review first, but will be here shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 16:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for agreeing to review the article, @Pickersgill-Cunliffe and @SchroCat. Just as a heads up, I'm going to have limited internet access for about 2 weeks beginning on August 9, but I probably will still be able to address your feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Architecture
Offices
  • "largely uninterrupted by columns": the lead says "Each of the upper floors ... consists of a column-free space". Both of these can't be true
  • "largest floor plates": again, anything "plates" can link to?
  • "The panels themselves were": you don't need "themselves"
  • "The chairs remain in production as of 2015": Any update on this? As it's nine years old, the use of the present tense jars a bit
    • They are indeed still being produced, but I wasn't able to find any non-primary sources confirming this. I changed it to "The chairs remain in production during the 21st century". Epicgenius (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Late 20th century

Hope these help! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @SchroCat. I've addressed all the points you raised. Epicgenius (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC

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Incoming! Bug me if I don't get back within a week. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead & Site
  • This is neurotic, but "serpentine-shaped pavement" doesn't really work; I don't know that I'd call serpentine a shape. "pavement with a serpentine pattern" might be better (applies for the same phrasing in the body also)
  • "The ground floor also includes storefronts and originally also" too many alsos
  • "a members-only restaurant during the day." this begs the question of what was it at night?
  • "After Time Inc. expressed its intention" sentence opens and closes with "time inc", which is a bit awkward. "to accommodate the move" maybe?
  • "Just prior to the development of 1271 Avenue of the Americas, most of the site was occupied by a parking lot,[6] which had previously served as a New York Railways Company trolley barn." I feel like this sentence is written backwards? Something like "Part of the site was originally a New York Railways Company trolley barn, later a parking lot" feels tighter
Architecture to Interior
  • "was hired as" twice in one sentence, I think you could write around that
  • "Furthermore, a provision" I don't know that "furthermore" is necessary
  • What is an accordion wall? Google only shows me room dividers, uselessly
    • I've changed this to "accordion-shaped wall". Basically, the windows on each story would have sloped inward, and the spandrel panels between the different stories would have sloped outward. (I've seen this in at least one other building before, though its name eludes me - otherwise, I'd link to a picture.) Epicgenius (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The glass curtain wall covers either" - that's a big discrepancy, what's up with that?
    • I have no idea. The WSJ said "Plans call for the replacement of its 450,000-square-foot glass-curtain wall", but the Pei Cobb Freed website mentions that 626,000 square feet of curtain wall was replaced. Epicgenius (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hm. You might want to efn the unexplained discrepancy, as it's so significant it sticks right out.
  • I'm sure you have a good reason to have it there, but the sidewalk image on top of the text, centered with all the whitespace... aesthetically I do not like it and I wish it was elsewhere. I will not attempt to enforce this as it's a personal preference but I wanted to say it
    • This was in response to a concern that Nikkimaria raised about sandwiching. I've added Template:Wide image. Epicgenius (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Right...yeah, I can see there's kind of no great place to put this. Could we pair it with another image to reduce whitespace? Maybe the current fountains, or an image of Cubed Curve since it seems to be out of copyright? Or a historical image? There's some in the Commons cat
  • " a tribute to its location along Avenue of the Americas" Possibly a question from ignorance, but what's the connection from Copacabana Beach to Avenue of the Americas?
  • "Harrison had believed" - can just be "Harrison believed", as "had" implies that he stopped believing this at some point
  • "A seating parapet ...covered by cement and terrazzo" the past tense in these three sentences suggests that these items were removed? When?
  • "Trees and shrubs were originally also planted" - similarly, are these gone now?
  • "In 1972, the Association for a Better New York hired William Crovello to create a sculpture called Cubed Curve." the paragraph manages to never say that it was placed at the building
  • "supposedly inspired" why supposedly? according to who?
    • The source (CultureNow) says "His 'Cubed Curve', placed outside the Time-Life building, is said to have been inspired by a fluid brush stroke." No further attribution is given. Epicgenius (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmmm. I did find a couple of sources that indicate his work was generally inspired by Japanese calligraphy, including Cubed Curve. Might be of use to remove the "supposedly"? [1][2][3]
      • Thanks for the initial comments, PMC. I forgot to ping you when I addressed all of them. Epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Architecture from Ground floor
  • Link breezeway?
  • "The lobby has the same...relate with the plaza." - these two sentences feel somewhat redundant. And then later in the paragraph you repeat yourself a bit with "marble-based terrazzo tiles that matched the original pavement design". How about tightening the beginning to something like "The lobby was resurfaced in the late 2010s to match the style of the exterior plaza, with white serpentine terrazzo tiles bordered with stainless steel and aligned from west to east. The pavement was installed by the American Mosaic & Tile Company, replacing the original floors of cementitious terrazzo..." and then go from there?
    • There are actually two ideas being conflated here. The original floors were installed by the American Mosaic & Tile Company and made of terrazzo. The current floors are made of marble and contain the same design as the original floors. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This may be a consequence of lack of coffee, but in the paragraph about the ceiling it's all present tense "are suspended" etc, and then you finish by saying the original ceiling was replaced in the 2010s. So does all that present tense stuff, including American-Saint Gobain Corporation, apply to the new ones?
    • Except for the manufacturer (which I'm not sure about), yeah. The replacement ceiling tiles had to be nearly identical to the originals, since they were protected by the city's interior-landmark designation. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The seven lowest stories each have about 62,000 sq ft" of floor space, I assume, but I think it should say so in the first instance. The second sentence can chop it now that we've established what we're talking about
  • Link floor slab?
  • context for Henry Luce?
  • I'm not sure the detail about the Time-Life chair is relevant to the article, especially the revised design and price
  • "also has offices" lose the "also" since you're not talking about any other Rockefeller offices or 24th floor offices
  • "it was redesigned by Davis, Brody & Associates in 1983.[89]" redesigned into what? or was it reopened as an auditorium again?
History & impact

That's all for me! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for the review, PMC. I've addressed your remaining comments now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PMC, just checking in to see if you saw my comments. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, yes, I just haven't had time lately to really get stuck in on anything. I cleared out one FAC reply obligation earlier and I'll deal with this one either today or tomorrow. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, never mind, it was an easy run-through. Two things remain - the additional sourcing for the Cubed artwork, and you signing off on my revision to the lobby paragraph. Otherwise I'm basically ready to support. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PMC, oops, I missed your other point above. I've addressed both of these points now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support from me then! Nice work as always. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Thanks for the image review @Nikkimaria. I've left my initial replies above. Epicgenius (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria, thanks again for the review. On further examination, it appears that these images were both published on April 12, 1960, and released into the Gottscho-Schleisner collection. There don't appear to be any copyright notices for either image. Epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Don't think that newspapers (The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal) need an ISSN. Pei Cobb Freed and Partners is sometimes written with and and sometimes with &. Are Emporis, Progressive Architecture high-quality reliable sources? I don't know them very much. Same question about The Midtown Book (and is it now The City Review or not?), Wallpaper.com, Eater.com, Globest.com and Gothamist. More a question of due weight than reliability, but I wonder if "Herman Miller" is a good source to use, it seems like a sales website. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus, thanks for the source review. Here are my initial comments:
  • I won't be able to fix the ISSNs until I get back from vacation in a week or so.
  • Emporis: I believe you asked about this before, but here is my response. This database is defunct, but there was a RSP discussion about this a few years ago, which seems to indicate that it is marginally reliable (with some content that was suggested by users and vetted by staff). I have removed it from this article, as it wasn't being used to cite anything.
  • Progressive Architecture - You asked about this too. This was a reliable source in its field; while no longer published, it was an established magazine with editorial oversight.
  • Wallpaper.com - ditto, it also has editorial oversight.
  • Eater - this also has editorial oversight and is part of the Vox website group, which is reliable per WP:RSPVOX.
  • GlobeSt - this has editorial oversight too.
  • Gothamist - This is a news outlet owned by radio station WNYC. It also has editorial oversight.
  • Midtown Book - The author, Carter Horsley, was an architecture critic for the New York Times for a while. I can try to find a separate source if you want, though.
  • I have removed the Herman Miller website.
Epicgenius (talk) 13:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, that sounds like sufficient credentials for Midtown Book. I must have forgotten that I already reviewed these sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus, thanks again for the review. I've removed the ISSNs now. Epicgenius (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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