Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2022 Tour Championship/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 August 2023 [1].

2022 Tour Championship[edit]

Nominator(s): Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 06:37, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2022 edition of the Tour Championship snooker event. First FAC failed as I ran out of time! Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 06:37, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Media review - pass[edit]

  • Images are all appropriately licensed as I had identified during the first nomination. Will try to dip back in for a prose review later :) NØ 09:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by BennyOnTheLoose[edit]

Feel free to challenge. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:08, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • wst.tv sources are inconsistently cited, variously as wst.tv, World Snooker, or World Snooker Tour. I'd suggest using "World Snooker Tour" as that's the branding.
  • Should be dashes rather than hyphens in "The Coral Series - Everything You Need to Know - WPBSA" and "Tour Championship snooker 2022 - Latest results, scores, schedule, order of play, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Judd Trump"
  • Ref 1 missing date. Archive link is from 2018 and talks about the 2020 event. (Current page title is just "Tour Championship", not "Cazoo Tour Championship" but that will probably be sorted if the right archive version is linked)
  • Ref 2, from 2018, does not verify "was the third and final event in the 2021–22 Cazoo Cup series,"
  • Ref 2 should have "WPBSA" removed from the title; the site is mentioned in the website parameter.
  • Ref 3. Current page is dated 3 April 2022, not 28 March. You could add an archive link and an access date.
  • Ref 4 is to the provisional calendar; you could add something like "was scheuled to be" before "the 15th and penultimate ranking event" but I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to find a source from after the event.
  • Ref 5 seems to be a repeat of ref 2, but with a diffrent access date so you could just name and re-use one after the issue above is sorted.
    • Done 10:06, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Ref 6 - remove snooker.org from title; the site is mentioned in the website parameter. IMO, snoooker.org is a reliable source for snooker articles.
  • Ref 8 seems to be the same as Ref 1, but with a different access date. I'd suggest combining them.
  • Ref 9 - website is listed as cazoo.co.uk rather than as Cazoo; I'd suggest changing it. (I'm not suggesting the same for snooker.org as that is how the site is known.)
  • Three references for "it was sponsored by car retailer Cazoo" seems like overkill.
  • Ref 12 - the doc doesn't seem to be titled ""Snooker Calendar" on the pdf
  • "The participants were determined by the points won in the ranking tournaments preceding the Tour Championship, from the 2021 Championship League to the 2022 Gibraltar Open" - where is this verified in the sources cited?
    • So I've moved the citation about where the players come from to state this. The other citations show what tournaments are included in the one-year ranking list. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:19, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 14, 25 and 50 - I think that "World Snooker Live Scores" should be removed from the title and added to the website parameter (in place of livescores.worldsnookerdata.com)
  • Prize fund: "Highest break: £10,000" and "Total: £380,000" not verified by source.
  • "Higgins, who narrowly qualified for the tournament after both Ricky Walden and Kyren Wilson were unable to win enough points during the Gibraltar Open" - it looks from the article cited that Walden could have taken the place, but I can't see it saying that Wilson could have done, only that wilson defeated Walden.
  • Ref 16 - missing author.
  • Ref 19 - missing author. Looks like Eurosport changed the page title after it was cited here - I know they often do change page titles. As the archive link is geoblocked, consider whether this ref can be updated to reflect the live page, for verifiability.
  • Ref 20 missing article date.
  • Ref 23 missing author.
  • Ref 26 - what maked livesnooker.com, which seems to be essentially a gambling site with news items etc, a reliable source? Seems like their business model is all about generating leads which are then passed on. If retained, I'd suggest identifying the website as Live Snooker, rather than livesnooker.com, for consistency.
    • I've done the consistency. I believe livesnooker was on our list of reliable sources, I'll see if I can find the source somewhere Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 27 seems to be a repeat of ref 22.
  • Ref 29 date is 31 March, not 30 March
  • Ref 30 is missing the author. I think "LIVE" should be "Live"
  • Ref 35 is missing the author.
  • Ref 36 is missing the author.
  • Ref 37 is missing the source name and date.
  • Ref 38 is missing the authors.
  • Ref 41 is missing the author.
  • Ref 42 is missing the author.
  • Ref 45 has a different title. (It might have changed - there's no archive link provided here.)
  • Ref 46 seems to be the same as ref 45.
  • Ref 47 is missing the author. It' another one where the title seems to have changed, but the archive link is geoblocked.
  • Ref 49 has a different title. (It might have changed - there's no archive link provided here.)
  • Cazoo series - the World Snooker Tour source only has totals, not the breakdown across the three events in the table.
    • Removed the bits. I'm not convinced the series is all that important now, but the WST website at least mentioned it, so it is here. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cazoo series " For all three events, qualification is based on players' rankings on the one-year ranking list. Coming into the final event, only O'Sullivan and Neil Robertson were in contention to top the series earnings. However, O'Sullivan was defeated by Robertson in the semi-finals, meaning that Robertson was guaranteed to top the series rankings" is not verified by the World Snooker Tour source cited.

General comments

  • Could be helpful to wikilink "ranking list" at the first instance in the lead.
  • You could add a cuegloss link at the first instance of "session"
  • "potting the pink when cannoning into the pack of reds." - could cuegloss pink and red; also, later, black.
  • "The scores from the final is shown below" should be "The scores from the final are shown below"
  • "A total of 33 century breaks were made during the tournament" always seems an awkward formulation to me ("A total" and "were") but may be correct. Otherwise, maybe something like "There were 33 century breaks made during the tournament"?
  • I’ve ever played against him”, stated O’Sullivan - has curly quotes
  • In the final table, is there a reason why century break totals are in italics?
    • As far as I am aware, when people make these tables, they have bold for most, and italics when they are the same. I can't say I agree that it is helpful. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:DUPLINKS has become more liberal, but I think a second link to 2022 Gibraltar Open in the Format section is unnecessary. (I'm taking a harder line than I did during the GA review.)
    • I'm back in the UK on Wednesday, I'll take a good look at this all then. Thanks for your comments. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've done the prose stuff, it's taking a tad longer than expected to do up the reference stuff. Hopefully I'll get some time later today :).

Thanks. I'll take a proper look in the next couple of days, but a couple of items caught my eye. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • remove snooker.org from title; the site is mentioned in the website parameter is marked as "done" but doesn't seem to be
  • Ref 9 - website is listed as cazoo.co.uk rather than as Cazoo; I'd suggest changing it. (I'm not suggesting the same for snooker.org as that is how the site is known.) hasn't been responded to
  • Citations 2 and 3 in the opening sentence of format could be moved to the end of the sentence. (As the "the third and final event" is not verified by the citation following it, but by the one after). Having the first citation after the closing parenthesis is per guidance as it's following puncutation, but IMO it would be more pleasing to the eye to have all three citations at the end of the sentence.
  • Prize fund - as noted above, the source didn't include the highest break prize, so the total of the sourced prize money by WP:CALC is £370,000 not £380,000.
  • Cazoo Series - the source makes it clear that the amounts are in pounds, so we could add £ symbols to the table here.
  • Re livesnooker as a source, I seem to recall supporting it as reliable previously, but at the moment I'm leaning against this since finding out more.
  • "CALENDAR 2021/2022" and "TOUR CHAMPIONSHIP 2022: NEIL ROBERTSON WITHSTANDS COURAGEOUS MARK ALLEN FIGHTBACK TO REACH SEMI-FINALS" shouldn't be in all caps.
  • I’ve ever played against him”, stated O’Sullivan - has curly quotes - marked as fixed above, but doesn't seem to be.
  • Hi BennyOnTheLoose, how is it looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Gog the Mild, I'm waiting on a further response from Lee Vilenski about the livesnooker.com point, then will have another look, but I can't envisage there being much more to say. The article is lacking anything from Snooker Scene, which is probably the go-to reliable source for snooker tournaments, but it's likely that their coverage would cover largely the same ground as the reports from BBC, Eurosport etc. There's also quite a reliance on World Snooker Tour's own sites, but I didn't see anything controversial that would benefit from an independent reference. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:52, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Hi, I've gone ahead and removed that ref, and replaced with a ref that covers that item. Will eventually find that discussion and we can talk about the site in general. As much as I love snooker scene, I would just be adding it to back up existing sources at this stage. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead and infobox both still have the prize fund as £380,000.
  • You could wikilink ranking event or ranking list at the first mention in Format.
  • You could wikilink to century break from "century" in "his fifth century of the match"
  • You could run IABot, which I think would take out the recently-dead links to worldsnookerdata.com (and add archive links for snooker.org "Calendar 2021/2022" etc.); but doing this might also add some more duff (geoblocked) Europsort archives.
  • Talking of which, the archive links at refs 3, 28, 29, 32, 33, 35, 39 and 43 are geoblocked/unavailable, so might as well be removed
    • I have removed them, although I suspect IABot will just readd them the next time around. I need to get that fixed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think both the "| World Snooker Live Scores" instances (refs 13 & 24) should be removed as they are site rather than url titles, but not a big deal.
Lee Vilenski - just a couple more. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General comments from BennyOnTheLoose[edit]

Don't think I'll have much more to add. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Format: Qualification

  • The archived link doesn't support the amounts shown in the table. (e.g. it has Trump on £514,000).
  • I had suggested adding the £ in the Cazoo Series table, which was done; I'd suggest adding it in the table here too, maybe with a tweak to the wording as pounds are points.
  • Naturally, Snooker Scene has the high break prize being £10,000 which was removed earlier for no source. ("Where the money went", Snooker Scene, May 2022, p.19)
    • I knew it would be there, I just can't get access (for whatever reason, they aren't answering my emails). Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Final

  • I note that the Snooker Scene tournament report starts with "There has never been a recovery from the brink of defeat in a major final like Neil Robertson's over John Higgins in the Cazoo Tour Championship...". Of course, they aren't constrained by having to write in an encyclopedic tone, but I wonder if something to this effect, or a bit more highlighting of the scale of the recovery is worth including? (I haven't specifically checked other sources to see if they emphasise this.)
    • It's a little bit overblown for my tastes, as we've seen many a match come back from this sort of range. 1991 Masters for example. I think Robertson's quote is enough, unless there is a suitable quote to include from Snooker Scene. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tournament draw

  • Either change "numbers in brackets showing players seeding" or the template used.

Tables

  • I'm not an expert on tables, but I think they need captions and may need row/column scopes. (MOS:DTAB)
  • Looking at H:TABLE, it seems the use of fixed widths is discouraged, but if they are used then they should be like style="width: Xpx;" or style="width: Xem;" rather than width=X. (I'll need to look at tables in articles I've worked on regaarding this!)

Support from NØ[edit]

I'll review this article soon. Please ping me when the above review has been completely addressed.--NØ 20:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would suggest making sure that all ” are converted to " and all ’ are converted to ' per MOS:CURLY
  • "It is probably the best he has ever played against me and the best I’ve ever played against him”, stated O’Sullivan." - I would invert this sentence since it is a bit jarring to start directly with the quote, so something like "O'Sullivan stated: "It is probably the best he has ever played against me and the best I've ever played against him".
  • These sentences should not have a comma:
    • "Williams fell 47 points behind in the penultimate frame, but won it on the colours to force a decider"
    • "Williams responded that he enjoyed the quality of the match, but said "I could and should have won"
    • "Robertson attempted a maximum break, but missed the final blue ball."

The article looks tremendously well-researched and the prose is interesting and high quality. Just a few nitpicks from me.--NØ 16:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • Caption: "with his opponent describing his long potting as "frightening"." The double use of "his" leaves me with no clue as to who is speaking and who is "frightening.
    • So I've made a change here as that quote isn't sources and I don't know where it came from. See if you prefer this. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "made his debut against John Higgins". Does this mean that it was the first time he had played Higgins? Or that this was the first match of the tournament? Or something else?
    • It means he made his debut in the Tour Championship event, where he played Higgins. I've reworded this to make this more obvious. The word debut is used too much in sports, I agree. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who also made his debut in the event." "also" - as well as whom? (Trump?)
  • "and four other half-century breaks". Delete "other".
    • I would, but I'd argue it makes slightly different meaning. Saying someone makes two century and four half-century breaks, technically means they made four breaks of 50+, with two of them being 100+. This is clarifying that they made four additional 50+ breaks to the ones already mentioned. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not convinced that the image captions adhere to "Most captions are not complete sentences but merely sentence fragments ... Captions should be succinct; more information can be included on its description page, or in the main text."
    • Sure, but generally when we have images they are to show things about the specifics of the subject. In cases such as these they are used to break up prose. If I'm honest, image captions that are super short are not really all that helpful to readers as they are the same as alttext. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. Very smooth prose that. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Gog the Mild. Thank you for your kind words. I've made some changes and replies. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Ian Rose, as we are at unanimous support so far and we've had the source and image reviews, any chance I could put another item up for FAC? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well I'm not sure we're quite at that point -- BennyOnTheLoose, as well as passing the source review were you supporting for promotion overall following your general review? Obviously no requirement to do so, this is just for clarification... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ian Rose: I'll have another look, as my earlier review was focused on sources rather than the article as a whole, but I certainly have no big concerns at the moment. Regards BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi BennyOnTheLoose, did you have any chance to take a look? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Ian Rose, not to try and expedite the process, but I don't think I'm far off here, no outstanding issues (as far as I am aware). As it's been six weeks (or so) anychance of a reassessment of my request? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, go ahead. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi! Any ideas if there was anything else required on this one @FAC coordinators: ? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:51, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MyCatIsAChonk

Support - I have no other comments, and the above two are minor; very nice job! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look MyCatIsAChonk - just a note, I have a thread open about making a script for putting refs in order at WP:SCRIPTREQ, which had some pushback. I'd appreciate your input. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MyCatIsAChonk: FYI "References need not be moved solely to maintain the chronological order of footnotes" per WP:TSI. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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