Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Are You Experienced/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Colm 10:31, 21 March 2014 [1].

Are You Experienced[edit]

Nominator(s): GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the debut album by the Jimi Hendrix Experience. I am nominating it for FAC because I believe it to be well-written, well-researched, comprehensive, neutral, and stable. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cassianto[edit]

I will review over the next few days and will post in instalments. I have read the lead section so as to gain some idea of what to expect; the lede will come last. All resolutions to comments at the nominator's discretion only please don't feel you have to adopt on my say so.

Background

  • Soon afterward →Soon afterwards
  • As it was a UK album, recorded by a UK artist, I wonder why the date – September 23, 1966 – is set out in the American style?
    • Hmmmm, that's a can of worms. My thinking was that the artist is American, so per WP:ENGVAR its an AmEng topic? What are your thoughts? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Personally, I would have this article in BritEng as the subject is an English one as it was recorded here. Hendrix was of course American and so his article should be AmEng. I don't think the two should be consistent. I have looked at other FA's and see that Rumours and the band, who were a British/American mix, are both set out in English. Up to you though.
        • Well, like I said, my reasoning is that the main creative and commercial focus of the band and album was an American. Also, if you look at an article like: The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit, its written in BritEng even though the events of the article take place entirely in the US, because the Beatles are an English act. I don't see Fleetwood Mac as an analog, because Mick founded the group, and a majority of its members were Brits. While its true that the Experience was 2/3rd Brits, I really don't see that as a logical comparison, since Hendrix was the front man and writer. Per MOS:TIES, I see the strongest tie with Hendrix the American. I'm not saying that I think you are wrong, but its grey enough that I'm not sure a strong case can be made for BritEng. Hendrix is American, and he is the focus of all things Experience. It seems silly to write his album articles in a variation that he did not use just for the sake of Mitch and Noel. Lennon recorded Double Fantasy in New York using mostly American musicians, but the article is written in BritEng. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 15:30, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hendrix met guitarist Noel Redding" -- setting this out in the definite article would be better
  • "blues progressions" or blues progression?
  • "Redding and Hendrix where they found common ground in their shared interest in rhythm and blues." →Redding and Hendrix shared an interest in rhythm and blues. Or, Redding and Hendrix found a shared interest in rhythm and blues. Can't quite work out which is better but "common ground" is superfluous as "shared" means pretty much the same thing.

Recording

  • Is there a reason why we repeat reference 9 so close to each other? Having skimmed the article briefly, I notice this a few times.
  • "Chandler's budget was limited, so in an effort to reduce expenditures he and Hendrix completed much of the album's pre-production work at an apartment that they shared." →"Chandler's budget was limited, so in an effort to reduce expenditures he and Hendrix completed much of the album's pre-production work at their shared apartment."

October through December 1966

  • "Chandler and the Experience found time to record during breaks between performances in Europe." →"Chandler and the Experience found time to record between performances in Europe."
  • If we do go down the BritEng route then words like "realizing" will need to be adjusted.
  • "When Ross asked Hendrix where he would like him to place a microphone..." →"When Ross asked Hendrix where he would like the microphone..." Or "When Ross asked Hendrix where he would like the microphone placed..."
  • "On December 15, 1966, finishing touches were made on the four rhythm tracks recorded the previous session" →"On December 15, 1966, finishing touches were made on the four rhythm tracks that were recorded the previous session"

January

  • Perhaps link Top of the Pops for our non-English readers
  • This maybe another Americanism, but "From January 12 through February 2" sounds odd to me. "Between January 12 and February 2" sounds better.
  • Overlink to Rolling Stones.
  • "When Chandler went to Polydor asking for relief they responded by securing a line of credit for him at Olympic, which they guaranteed." →"When Chandler went to Polydor asking for relief they responded by guaranteeing him a line of credit at Olympic."

February

  • "met sound engineer Eddie Kramer →met the sound engineer Eddie Kramer.
  • "Kramer's unorthodox approach, which was inspired by a conversation with Hendrix" →"Kramer's unorthodox approach, which was inspired by a conversation he had had with Hendrix"
  • ""Foxy Lady" was another song that they reworked on February 8..." -- This sounds like there were two songs remixed on this day. Were there two?
    • "Fire" was also reworked; this is detailed in the previous paragraph. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • My eyes are not as fresh as they were this morning, sorry. CassiantoTalk 22:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have reference [56] repeated needlessly no less than five times towards the end of this paragraph.
  • "Hendrix was not as confident a singer as a guitarist, and because he strongly disliked anyone watching him sing he asked the engineers at Olympic to construct a privacy barrier between him and the control room for his use when recording vocals." -- "...for his use when recording vocals" is redundant here.
  • "Hendrix was not as confident a singer as a guitarist" →"As a singer, Hendrix was not as confident as he was a guitarist".
  • "As was the case at De Lane Lea, Hendrix's penchant for using multiple amplifiers at extreme volume drew criticism and complaints from people living and working near the studio." →"As was the case at De Lane Lea, Hendrix's penchant for using multiple amplifiers at extreme volume drew criticism and complaints from the people living and working near to the studio."
  • [60] is repeated five times here too.
  • "Olympic employees were tasked with keeping them under control and at a safe enough distance" -- redundant use of "enough"

March and April

  • "March, 1" -- new section, new year. We can then lose the first 1967 in the following paragraph.
  • "During March..." →"During that month..." To save on repetition.
  • [73] is repeated no less than 7 times here!
  • The final quote of this section needs a space from between the ending quote marks: "...heard.'" →"...heard.' "
    • I've never heard that one before; Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • It just makes it a bit clearer that it is a quote within a quote. CassiantoTalk 22:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yeah, that makes good sense to me; I just never knew that. See, I always learn something from your reviews, so thanks! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Release

  • "The third Experience single, "The Wind Cries Mary"/"Highway Chile", was released in the UK on May 5, while "Purple Haze" occupied the number three spot." -- As this is an entirely new section, I feel that we should mention "chart" somewhere before or after we end with "number three spot".
  • "Management's decision..." →"The Management's decision..."
  • "...single while the previous one was still present in the UK charts was unorthodox, as was the fact that the style of "The Wind Cries Mary" differed so greatly from that of "Purple Haze". →"...single while the previous one was still present in the UK charts was unorthodox, as was the style of "The Wind Cries Mary" which differed greatly from "Purple Haze".
  • "Track Records released Are You Experienced in the UK on May 12, 1967. It entered the UK charts..." -- I don't think we need to repeat "UK" here.
  • Again with "It remained in the UK charts..."
  • "Hendrix burned and smashed his guitar." On stage?
  • "Although the single performed poorly in US charts..." →"Although the single performed poorly in the US charts..."
  • "The album remained on Billboard's album chart for 106 weeks, including 27 in the Top 40..." →"The album remained on Billboard's album chart for 106 weeks, 27 of those in the Top 40" would be preferable, but perhaps there is better even still.

Music and lyrics

  • Watch for overlinking to "soul". The same article links to "soul music" and "soul" itself.
  • "Although the lyrics to "Purple Haze", which opened the US edition..." -- US edition of what? As this is a new paragraph perhaps say "US edition of the album" as neither the name of the album nor "album itself is mentioned. I did find myself asking the question "edition of what"?
  • "In the opinion of author Ritchie Unterberger..." →"In the opinion of the author Ritchie Unterberger..."
  • "...authors Harry Shapiro and Caesar Glebbeek →"...the authors Harry Shapiro and Caesar Glebbeek"
  • "In 1967, Hendrix told journalist Keith Altham" →"In 1967, Hendrix told the journalist Keith Altham"
  • Overlink to "Rock"

Album cover

  • I would be tempted to move the image up a paragraph where you describe their clothing so as not to jar the eyes.
    • Do you mean down? Because the file is currently adjacent to the paragraph that discusses the image. The paragraph above this one is discussing the UK cover. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 15:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • This maybe because I use a small screen, so it might be according to which device(s) one uses. If it looks good to you then leave it where it is. CassiantoTalk 01:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hendrix wore clothes from his wardrobe, including a psychedelic jacket with a pair of eyes printed on the front that had been given to him by a fan" →"Hendrix wore clothes from his wardrobe, including a psychedelic jacket with a pair of eyes printed on the front which had been given to him by a fan"
  • "which as it happened was not needed" →"which was not needed"
  • "was the first shot from the first roll of film used the previous day." -- Repetition of "first".
  • Do we need "predominately" in there? It is yellow. The only other colour is the lettering which we go onto talk about.
    • Fixed. Egan does not identify the colour of the lettering, so I suppose if I did it would be WP:OR. I'll take a look through some other sources. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 15:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reception and legacy

  • "Are You Experienced is widely regarded as one of the greatest debut albums in the history of rock and roll." -- By who?
  • Do we really need to link "music critics"? I should think nearly everyone will know what a music critic is.
  • "In a retrospective review for Blender, music critic Robert Christgau" -- "...the music critic Robert Christgau"
  • "According to music journalist Charles Shaar Murray..." -- definite article

A great read Gabe, sorry for the intermittency of the review. Everything else looks great! CassiantoTalk 01:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cassianto. I appreciate the excellent review! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 17:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Cassianto, will you be completing the review? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:19, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Nothing to complete Gabe, I saw no further issues hence my abrupt ending. Sorry, I have a habit of finishing a review only to then to forget to add my oppose, or in this case support. This is a fine article and one I have come to expect from you. Cassianto (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment by Curly Turkey[edit]

  • It may just be that I'm a nerd, but one of the first things I want to know about an album is its release year—I was surprised it wasn't mentioned until the third paragraph of the lead. I consider that important for context and orientation. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:Are You Experienced - US cover-edit.jpg[edit]

  • Also, certainly not the uploader's work. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't own an original LP, so I have no way of knowing if the image is PD as stated. However, it would be no issue at all to write a good FUR, as the image is discussed in the article in great detail. Should I just write a FUR as though the image is copyrighted? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 17:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Until we can verify, yes. I doubt such a big name would have not had a single copyright notice on the cover (back or inside). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Commons versions should be nominated for deletion then.FunkMonk (talk) 19:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is that my responsibility, because I am getting really burnt-out by all this Wiki-red-tape? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all, just a note. FunkMonk (talk) 19:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've nominated it for deletion. If it survives, feel free to use as PD. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't buy the PD argument - I have never seen an album released on a major label in the 1960s that did not have a copyright notice. Isn't the big "Reprise" logo on the front cover a clue? However, it could be argued the picture is well known and historically significant enough to qualify as fair use in the article. I seem to recall the same thing coming up at The Who's GA review, and all the images under question on Commons got deleted. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:09, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree, but the folks at Wikicommons kept the image. FWIW, when the album was released in the UK, the cover did not include Hendrix's name or the band's name, so oversights like this did happen. I don't think Reprise ever owned the image. At any rate, the album's cover is discussed in detail in the article, and the FUR is solid. So that should take care of any fair-use issues. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:15, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let me put it like this, Commons likes to store lots and lots of photos of their members' wieners, but it doesn't mean we should use that as best practice. I see your point, but unless it's a featured picture I don't think we can take that as any cast-iron guarantee that it will meet the FA critiera. As it is, a fair use reason has been given, so this point is moot. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:20, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Per discussions here: User talk:Crisco 1492#Copyright notice and here: Wikipedia talk:Files for deletion#Why isn't the onus on those who support deletion?, we've determined that the AYE cover is in fact PD in the US. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley[edit]

Support – for reasons given at the end of these comments. Tim riley (talk) 13:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
First read-through, purely for typos etc:

  • "its tempo is written in triple metre" – as the article is in AmEng I wondered if this should be "meter"?
  • "Hornets Nest" – I daresay it didn't have a possessive apostrophe, but I just thought I'd ask
  • "Billboad Books" – probably Billboard, I imagine.
    • Actually, no. The publisher's name is Billboard Books. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, but Billboard, not Billboad? Tim riley (talk) 19:11, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Right, sorry; my eyes aren't what they used to be, and they were never great to begin with! Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:38, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Substantive comments on prose etc will follow tomorrow, I hope. Tim riley (talk) 18:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tim. I always appreciate your reviews. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First lot of comments, down to end of "Music and lyrics section. More to come:

  • Lead
    • I'll leave this till I've read the main text, but as a vague preliminary comment, I didn't know that Hendrix sang in addition to playing the guitar, and I think this should be made clear at an early stage. If it is there already, my apologies, but it passed me by.
  • Background
    • "knowledge of blues progressions" – most of your readers will probably be less ignorant than I am, but a few old buffers like me would find either a link, a footnote, or a parenthetical explanation helpful.
    • Linked. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "a Marshall twin stack" (and later "Hendrix's four Marshall stacks") – again, a word of explanation for the uninitiated would be good
  • January to April 1967
    • "they wrote the following words on the tape box" – I think you could lose "the following words"
  • North America
    • "Hendrix burned and smashed his guitar on stage" – do the sources explain why?
    • "album cuts" – unfamiliar term: perhaps a note explaining
      • Its a large article, so it would be nice to have more context so I'm not searching for two words among 7,000. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Music and lyrics
    • "is comprised of diverse music genres" – either "comprises diverse music genres" or "consists of diverse music genres", but you can't "comprise of".
    • "Hit Parader magazine ranked it number 35 in their list" – the plural pronoun feels strange used of a singular noun, as here
    • "Its blues inspired solo" – I think you need a hyphen here
    • "its tempo is written in … 3/4 time" – I don't know about popular music, but in classical music "tempo" refers not to the metrical divisions indicated by the time signature, but to the speed at which the piece goes, allegro, largo etc (or else specified metronome beat). Perhaps that doesn't apply here, but I mention it in case.

More later today, I hope. – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Concluding comments:

  • Album cover
    • "so in preparation for an alternate" – is "an alternate" a noun in US usage? Looks odd to an English eye, but if it's idiomatic, then fine of course.
    • "he intended for" – is the "for" needed?
      • Again, its really difficult for me to find two words among a large section. I essentially need to re-read the entire section for each of these small text-strings. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes
    • Note 6 – you use the spelling "traveled", but in the main text (last para of "March and April") you have "travelled". I believe both are accepted AmEng usage, but you should, I think, standardise on one or the other.
      • Its very difficult for me to pick-out one word from a large section, but its now fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duplicate links – nothing to frighten the horses, but I used the check duplicate link tool and it highlighted: "pre-mixed and reduced", "four-track recorder", "title track", "backwards", "Fire", "double tracked", "unison bends" and "Bob Dylan".
    • Okay, I've now installed the tool and removed the dupe links. FTR, you're the first person in 4 1/2 years that's told me that there is a tool that highlights dupe links. If I had a dollar for every time someone sent me searching a 7-10,000 word article for dupe links I could retire! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Glad you now know about this useful tool. Pray pass it on when you're reviewing other editors' articles. Tim riley (talk) 19:56, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead
    • "as a back-up guitarist" – does this mean a guitarist in a backing group or an understudy/reserve guitarist?
    • "the guitarist's talents" – I mentioned above that I was quite surprised when you mentioned Hendrix's singing later in the main text, and I suppose it was the description of him here as just a guitarist that misled me.
    • "Rolling Stone magazine … on their list" – as above, the singular noun with the plural pronoun jars rather.

That's my lot. Nothing of any great consequence. As far as I, as the layest of laymen, can tell, the article is comprehensive and well balanced. It is thoroughly referenced from a good range of sources. I note that you give prominent coverage to adverse criticism of the LP as well as to praise of it. The prose is pleasing to read, and most technical terms are either explained or blue-linked. I see no reason not to add my support, which I have done, at the top of my comments, above. Tim riley (talk) 13:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can we link CBS Studios to a suitable target article?
Surprisingly, there aren't any suitable target articles. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(shrugs) okay then. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In para 3 of the October to December 1966 section, there are alot of "CBS" s - can we reduce any?
Fixed? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
According to Chandler, by this time Redding and Mitchell had begun to express dissatisfaction regarding their limited input. - err, "complain"? ...or that was the word in the source I suppose...
Actually, no. I was just being verbose for other reasons. Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Otherwise a nice read and over the line on comprehensiveness and prose... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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