Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Hastings/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Battle of Hastings[edit]

Battle of Hastings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 16:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... it's been through GA, it's had copyedits by two fine copyeditors (John and Eric Corbett), and I've read a large chunk of both older and new sources in the course of getting this (and Norman Conquest of England) up to snuff. It's a good, well sourced introduction to a complex subject. It continues on with the Norman conquest of England topic I've been working on for a while, this article treats the actual decisive battle that assured the Normans control of England. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Ealdgyth. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: generally an easy-to-read account that avoids overdetailing and is especially good in explaining background and context. I have a few quibbles, suggestions and queries, nothing major:

  • The section "Tostig's invasion", is as much about Hadrada's invasion as Tostig's so you may want to vary the heading
  • Section: "Harold's preparations and the English army" - it would make logical sense to reverse the paragraph order in this section
  • "suffered such horrific losses" - moderate "horrific" as contrary to WP:PEACOCK
    • The sources are all pretty secure on this - 24 out of 300 ships works out to only 8% of the ships were needed to take home the survivors. That's not just horrific, it's pretty much obscene. Stamford was a devasting loss for the invaders. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not suggesting that the losses weren't horrifiic, merely that use of such descriptions should be attributed to a source. Brianboulton (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rather than fight against the stupid idiocy that is the usual interpretation of WP:PEACOCK, I've changed "horrific" to "great". (You'd be hard pressed to find any historian that comments on the losses at Stamford who doesn't use some sort of word like horrific... but it's not worth the fight.). Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • explanation of "hide" required in text; I had to use the link, which was disruptive to my reading
  • "William's preparations and landing": include a year somewhere in the first paragraph of the section, e.g. "In April 1066 Halley's Comet..." etc
  • "After landing, William's forces built a wooden castle at Hastings..." Since Hastings is a good 10 miles east of Pevensey, maybe "after landing" is an oversimplification. Presumably he established and extended his beachhead.
    • But we don't know that for sure. I'm not sure that I see that there is a big problem here - he built the castle soon after landing (it was built before the battle) ... so it was soon after landing. Suggestions are welcome to help refine this .. but most of the sources I've used go direct from landing to castle building. (It was a wooden motte-and-bailey castle, not a big stone keep, if that helps. It was thrown up in a few days.) Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • We know he landed at Pevensey, and then built a castle 10 miles to the east at Hastings. Do no sources explain why he shifted his base to Hastings, rather than use the existing stronghold at Pevensey where, according to your image caption, he built a fort after the battle? it just seems a slight hole in the story – but unless the sources provide explanations, there's little we can do. Brianboulton (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nope, we really don't know - the original sources don't state why, and I haven't seen any speculation of why either. Having travelled over that countryside, my guess is that Hastings is on higher, drier ground and it was a good spot to build a castle and control the countryside, likely the first good spot he came to. Perhaps one of the men in his army had previously served in England (there were Normans who served as soldiers in England during the 1050s) and knew the area. We just don't know. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "only about 35 individuals can be reliably claimed to have been with William at Hastings." Needs revising to avoid the impression that William only had 35 in his army. E.g. "only about 35 names can be reliably identified as having been with William at Hastings."
    • Went with "only about 35 named individuals can be reliably claimed to have been with William at Hastings"... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "William's scouts reported the English arrival to the duke." Clarify where the English were encamped before the battle
    • This is that Brit thing with the silly hoar apple tree, isn't it? I've put it in, but really, none of the historians mention it (gaze up). Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • English forces at Hastings: the figures suggested from Norman sources (400,000 to 1,200,000) are not just unreliable (total Eng. population at the time was around 3 million), they are absurd - I would emphasise this
    • I can't really do much more without going into OR territory. As a general rule, figures of any army before the modern era are unreliable - it's merely a question of how unreliable. Historians just don't feel the need to ridicule them that much.. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Few individual Englishmen are known to have been at Hastings, with the most important being Harold's brothers Gyrth and Leofwine.[25] About 20 named individuals can reasonably be assumed to have fought with Harold at Hastings, including Harold's two brothers and two other relatives." These two sentences should be merged, since they are essntially saying the same thing.
  • "The battle occurred on Saturday 14 October 1066". I'd absorb this information into the second substantive sentence of the paragraph: "The only facts that are undisputed are that the fighting began at 9 am on Saturday 14 October 1066 and that the battle lasted until dusk".
  • I'd also try to avoid the repetition: "...the battle.[69] The battle..."
  • You say the battle took place between two hills - "Caldbec Hill to the north and Telham Hill to the south". The lead and infobox say it took place at Senlac Hill; in the text, "Senlac" is given as an alternative name for the battle, with no mention of a hill.
    • Removed - remnant of the early text. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information about the London-Lewes road and the hike over local tracks probably belongs earlier in the narrative: Lewes is at least 20 miles (a day's march?) from the battle site. As I mention earlier, it would be useful to know where the English were encamped the night before the battle.
  • "with some of them rallying on a hillock before dying". Does "them" refer to the Norman counter-attackers or the English pursuers?
  • (I love the idea of the battle having a meal break. Just like cricket)
  • "the English pursuit and subsequent rout". It needs to be clearer who was routed.
  • "What exactly happened" → "Exactly what happened"?
  • "Harold had to dismiss his forces in southern England on 8 September..." → "Harold had dismissed [or 'demobilized'?] his forces in southern England on 8 September..."
  • "Sent to the papacy"? to the pope, surely?
    • Well, papacy includes the whole surrounding bureacracy surrounding the pope - which would have had a say in things. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmm, I'm not sure. For example, would you say "sent to the presidency" rather than "to the president"? Or "to the monarchy" rather than "to the queen"? They too have surrounding bureaucracies. Brianboulton (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah, but historians use pope=papacy interchangably for this period. It's very common, and not at all unusual in the sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...troubles in Northumbria in 1068. In 1069 William faced more troubles from Northumbrian rebels...." Avoidable repetition of "troubles" here, and later on of "rebellions".
  • " the site of the battle has been altered." This reads ambiguously; it is the topography of the site rather than the site itself that has been altered.
  • The last sentence might imply that the Bayeux Tapestry is within Battle Abbey rather than at Bayeux. Perhaps clarify.

Good stuff. For old time's sake I will do a sources review. Brianboulton (talk) 15:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

  • Footnote c contains uncited information. It also contains some WP:WEASEL stuff: "Unfortunately for Edgar..."
  • Refs 20 and 108: "Nicholle" should be "Nicolle" I believe.
    • Yes. I have a friend who spells her name "Nicholle" which causes me endless problems with Nicole... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the footnotes and the citations look neater in 4-col format (I've tried it).
    • I have them set to be a certain width instead of a certain number of columns. It appears as 4 columns for my screen... I prefer a bit more white space and less bunching of each citation. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Two columns only on my screen. We haven't got Cinemascope here yet. Brianboulton (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • You mean not everyone has a 30" screen? (But I also have a smaller screen, and prefer this spacing on that screen too). Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise all sources look of appropriate quality. Brianboulton (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: All issues resolved Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Parutakupiu[edit]

  • Link Tostig (Godwinson) in its first appearance in the lead.
  • "... marked the culmination of the William's conquest of England."
  • Every "In <month or year>"/"On <date>" instance at the beginning of a sentence should be followed by a comma.
    • Only in American English. British English does not. This is a British subject, so we don't do that. (Trust me, I have my British English articles copyedited by TWO Brits to make sure I follow Brit English). Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, but then you have one or other instance where you do have commas. For example: "In early 1066, Harold's exiled brother Tostig Godwinson..." Parutakupiu (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... converting to Christianity[3]..." – place a comma before the ref tag.
  • "... the formidable Godwin, Earl of Wessex..." – WP:PEACOCK
    • No, he was quite the important person and a prime mover of events. It's not peacokery when all the sources would agree. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I understand, but does he become less formidable because you don't say it? Anyway, it's just an opinion. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Harold Godwinson was Edward's "immediate successor" because he was his brother-in-law? Because he was the most powerful English aristocrat? Or both? It would be interesting to clarify this.
    • It all depends on who you ask. This is better gone into in Harold's article (which I'm working on). It's something of a historian's delight to argue about this... we couldn't do it justice in this article. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The English army does not appear to have had a significant number of archers, although it had some." – not having a significant number or archers doesn't mean having no archers at all, so you can drop that last part.
  • Note g feels repetitive regarding the modern sources accounting for Pevensey's landing.
    • It's the only way I can safely say "most" - as it's not something that is explicitly given. Many little towns along the coast "claim" that William landed there, so we needed to mention that modern historians are united in it being Pevensey. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A contemporary document claims that William had 726 ships..." contradicts note d that states 776 ships.
  • "Harold, After defeating his brother Tostig and Harald Hardrada in the north, Harold left much of his forces..."
    • Done, although I don't see much difference, honestly. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The difference is that the clause is not interrupted. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... threatened Norman invasion." – you mean threatening?
    • No, threatened. It's likely that Harold still thought it was a threat, not an actual event, when he left the north. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The rest of the army was made up of levies from the fyrd..." – forgot to italicise fyrd.
  • Javelin is only linked on its second instance ("English forces at Hastings"); link to it at the first appearance in "Norman forces at Hastings".
    • I've just removed the link... it seems to be something that should be known anyway. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change the sub-section title "Background and site of the battle" to "Background and site" (it is already nested in the "Battle" section).
  • "Several roads are possible. One, an old Roman road..." – replace the period with a colon so it doesn't read like a telegram.
  • I'd drop one of the battlefield images, so that the image showing the tactical formations could be moved to the corresponding section.
  • "After the bombardment from the archers,..." – bombardment is not the best word.
  • "William had more experience with leading armies.[110] The lack of cavalry on..." – Link both sentences.
    • Hm? Not sure what you mean here. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I hate short sentences. If there's a possibility to merge two consecutive and content-related sentences, I prefer it be done. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I cannot see how we can combine sentences here, honestly. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Using "and"? Anyway, this is hardly important and seeing that there are many more examples of this, I won't insist. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "HIs personal standard was presented to William." – typo in 'His'
  • "1 in 7" → "one in seven"; "1 in 4" → "one in four"
  • Try to comply with WP:IMAGELOCATION.
    • I've fiddled with images just to conform to this (rather idiotic) idea that you can't put images aligned left under a heading. It's pretty dang silly but whatever. It's done. Everything is now a paragraph down on the left side. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

— Parutakupiu (talk) 20:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the bibliography: "Douglas Douglas C. (1964). William the Conqueror. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press." – error in the author name? Plus, just wondering if this book source does not have an ISBN? It's the only one... Parutakupiu (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed - and it doesn't have an ISBN because it was published before ISBNs. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:30, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Like any supposedly educated Englishman I vaguely knew the gist of this article, but to have the facts set out clearly, as here, in well-proportioned, detailed and pleasing prose, is both instructive and enjoyable. I don't see how this could be improved on, and in my view it meets all the FA criteria. Two small comments, which ignore if you wish: "35 named individuals can be reliably claimed to have been with William" is not the most streamlined prose, and "the beaten foe" seems a touch quaint. Mere suggestions. Otherwise cordial applause. – Tim riley (talk) 13:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the praise, and the support. I'm open to suggestions on how to better word the first, but I honestly can't think of one right this moment. I kinda like "the beaten foe", myself, I'm not always opposed to using quaint when it helps vary the wording choices. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You could substitute "fleeing defenders" instead of "beaten foe". Eric Corbett 18:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I went with "fleeing soldiers"... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (CC own work, Geograph, PD-art|PD-old-100). Sources and authors provided.

  • Some summaries and licenses tweaked for FAC-preparation. - OK GermanJoe (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: Returning from an involuntary break, so mostly looking at reference formatting rather than content until I re-acclimate:

  • When multiple citations support the same text, convention is for them to appear in numerical order. For example, at the end of "Background and location", you have a statement cited to [67][86][83][87], but those references should be reordered to read [67][83][86][87]. Note g has the same issue.
  • I believe that the little horizontal line in the Bennett et al. title should be an en-dash.
  • The Douglas reference lacks an ISBN number (978-0520003484).
  • In the Nicolle Medieval Warfare reference, I believe the "In" should be lowercase.

I had to pick nits pretty minutely here; this looks like excellent work. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all but the Douglas - it predates ISBNs, so the edition I'm using doesn't have one. That isbn you give is for the 1999 Yale University Press edition - I'm using the original first edition first printing of the University of California Press. (they don't differ in content but do in printing, possibly in pagination). Douglas died in 1982, so he never revised that work. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Some books, especially ones that got a lot of use, have had ISBNs retroactively assigned. There does seem to be some confusion in the databases regarding some printings, however. I show 978-0520003484 for the June 1964 "1st Folio" University of California Press edition, 978-0413243201 for the Methuen Publishing hardcover later in 1964, and 978-0520003507 for the 1967 University of California paperback reprint. Different formats of the 1999 Yale reprint appear to have been assigned 978-0300185545 and 978-0300185546. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 20:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It really doesn't matter though ... as ISBNs are not required, especially when it's a matter of a book originally published before them. It has an OCLC which allows someone to look up the edition, thus it's consistent with the other references. (For that matter, references are not required to be in numerical order at FAC - plenty of FACs I've shepherded don't have them set up that way) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked back over this, and I'm happy to support this article. I might consider rewording the first sentence of "Reasons for the outcome"; "probably" feels awkward there to me, and is repeated at the start of the next paragraph. I don't have the sources on hand, so I'm not sure how much equivocation they give over the causes. Can we say something like "Several circumstances contributed to Harold's defeat."? Perhaps with "may have", if needed, just to avoid the qualifier duplication? Regardless, I don't consider this an actionable objection (nor is the issue with the Douglas book's identifier, on which we may agree to disagree). Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Very engaging read, I can't fault it. I made a few small tweaks. J Milburn (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment By no means a vote against, but I think that the description of the composition of the forces could focus more on the military traditions of the two armies. The respective compositions follow naturally from the Germanic-Scandinavian infantry traditions of the Anglo-Saxons and the modification of that same tradition by exposure of the Normans to the French and the presence of native French forces in William's army. Doug (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I follow the sources - they don't discuss that as an aspect of Hastings. It'd be a better fit at an article on Anglo-Saxon military or Norman military forces. (I have no idea if we have such an article or not.) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see we do. Anglo-Saxon military organization. I've linked that article. We seem to be lacking a similar one for Normans - probably something to suggest at MilHist. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - reflects the specialist literature well. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a few comments:

  • The narrative is a bit confusing when it goes from mentioning "Godwin, Earl of Wessex", and then "Earl of Wessex, Harold Godwinson" Was the title passed between those two somewhere in there?
    • Clarified that Harold is Godwin's son. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:28, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "William and Harald immediately set about assembling troops and ships for an invasion." Were they doing this in concert, or were they each planning their own invasions? It becomes clear later, but could use some clarification here.
  • "The fyrd and the housecarls both fought on foot, mainly distinguished by the housecarl's superior armour." I don't understand what the modifying phrase "mainly distinguished by the housecarl's superior armour" is modifying. What was distinguished?
    • now reads "fought on foot, with the major difference between them being the housecarl's superior armour." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:28, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Learning of the Norwegian invasion he rushed north" How did he learn of it?

Interesting read! --Laser brain (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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