Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bleed American/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 24 September 2022 [1].

Bleed American[edit]

Nominator(s): MusicforthePeople (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2022 (UTC); DannyMusicEditor (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone. This article is about the fourth album from alt rock act Jimmy Eat World, released in mid 2001. After nearly becoming a casualty of the major label system following their third album, the band bounced back with their most commercially successful release to date. It was certified platinum in the US, gold in Canada and silver in the UK. Sometime before this, the album's title was changed to Jimmy Eat World following the 9/11 attacks. Its second single "The Middle" was a top five hit in the US, becoming a staple of the pop punk genre, and is the band's signature song.

While I initially did some expansion to the article a few years ago, DannyMusicEditor (talk · contribs) did further work on it and took this to GA status in 2016. After I did some more expansion in 2021, ahead of the album's 20th anniversary, Danny and I talked about bringing this to FA status. In the interim, we brought Tell All Your Friends to FA earlier this year and have decided to do the same for Bleed American. We had previously taken this to FAC, but the nomination stalled after only receiving one support, so this is the second attempt. MusicforthePeople (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For any passer-bys, I can't seem to remove the error message with ref #116, even though it is defined. MusicforthePeople (talk) 09:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

Very familiar with the album, one of my favorites.

  • I am somewhat surprised not to see Andy Greenwald's book, Nothing Feels Good: Punk Rock, Teenagers, and Emo, used as a source, since it includes discussion of Jimmy Eat World and Bleed American. You should be able to get the relevant parts from Google Books preview. Sellout: The Major Label Feeding Frenzy That Swept Punk by Dan Ozzi may also have something.
Ping me when you're ready for me to continue.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Added.[2][3] MusicforthePeople (talk) 08:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Trombino offered to work for free during the recording sessions, confident he would be reimbursed by the album's predicted commercial success.[13] " If I read this right, he wasn't working for free, he was just deferring payment until the band had cash.
  • ""various popular songs". The source does not say popular.
  • The music video for "The Middle" is described twice in the same paragraph, probably better the second time.
  • "The music video for "Sweetness" shows the band in stationary " in stationary?
  • "The band supported on Blink-182 and Green Day" strike "on"
  • ""the Promise Ring" is double-linked.
  • Greenwald's comments about "music, any music, equals salvation" as a theme of the record (page 107) seems worth including.
  • "Greenwald said Bleed American going platinum was one factor in emo reaching mainstream media attention in mid-2002, alongside Vagrant Records have significant sales figures on its releases and Dashboard Confessional appearing on MTV Unplugged.[141] " Should "have" be "having"?
That's what I got.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Done. MusicforthePeople (talk) 20:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Wehwalt (talk) 22:10, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

Images given are appropriately licensed, but could a sample be included under a FUR? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Easily could, we just haven't decided on which to use. "The Middle" is probably a good bet. dannymusiceditor oops 16:36, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Danny and myself were wondering, does the sample have to be of a certain section? For example, we were thinking the intro/first verse would be a better selection instead of, say, the chorus. MusicforthePeople (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, we think the song's opening riff may be its biggest defining part. Unusual, for sure, but we firmly believe this kept the song memorable over the years. dannymusiceditor oops 19:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Generally you're going to want to pick something that is the subject of sourced commentary. See WP:SAMPLE for additional guidance. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, has this been resolved? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:35, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A sample has been added, but it appears to exceed 10% of the original (see WP:SAMPLE) and the FUR is incomplete. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I've shortened it and updated the FUR. MusicforthePeople (talk) 08:06, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ippantekina[edit]

  • Support I reviewed this article in the previous FAC and I am still happy with the prose. Great work. Ippantekina (talk) 10:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

Although Guerillero has passed the source review, I see that a formal SR was still requested at WT:FACSR. I have some concerns.

  • What makes Punknews.org a high-quality reliable source that it's been used so prominently throughout the article?
  • Source 44 - what makes Alternative Press a high-quality reliable source?
  • Source 53 - the title is América Sangra not America Sangra. Plus, it needs translation using |trans-title=.
  • Source 135 - a recent a discussion at WT:CHARTS found that Irish-charts is not a reliable source (at least not up to FA standards).
  • Source 159 - Billboard should be de-linked. FrB.TG (talk) 19:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the detailed response to my questioning of the reliability of some sources. It's a pass from me. I'll probably try to conduct a general review sometime later, should this fail to get enough attention. FrB.TG (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@FrB.TG: We may need your help with that general review in order to have this get any chance of passing. dannymusiceditor oops 05:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG[edit]

For a general review. In the meantime, I would appreciate a source review for my FAC, but that is not required. FrB.TG (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any update on when you'll get to this? As for yours, I believe it has a strong chance of passing without my comment, and have nothing of note to contribute. dannymusiceditor oops 04:24, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. I have the following suggestions:
  • "It was recorded with Mark Trombino and the band serving as producers in October and November 2000 at the Cherokee and Harddrive studios in Los Angeles." The -ing placement is odd. I would just use "served". Also, I would add a "respectively" at the end of the sentence to clarify that the October recording was at the Cherokee and the November recording in LA.
  • "coinciding with tours of Australia and Japan" - whose tours?
  • "Each single from Bleed American managed to enter the top twenty" - "managed to enter" -> "entered"
  • "The most successful was "The Middle", which reached the number-one spot"
  • "As of September 2016, the album has sold over 1.6 million copies." Worldwide or just in the US?
  • "by the likes of Addicted to Noise, CMJ, and Kerrang!, among others" - "the likes of" makes "among others" redundant and vice versa.
  • "As a result of this, any trust the band had"
  • Los Angeles, California should be de-linked per WP:OL.
  • "In order to save money" - prose redundancy
  • "and as such that theme "runs throughout the entire album."[30]" The full stop should be placed outside the quotation mark as per MOS:LQ.

Down to the end of overview section. More later. FrB.TG (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed all of these. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • including "Crimson and Clover" by Tommy James and the Shondells, "Our House" by Madness, "Kickstart My Heart" by Mötley Crüe and "Don't Let's Start" by They Might Be Giants - need an oxford comma here to maintain consistency.
  • The new wave-esque "The Middle", includes - no comma needed.
  • "The drum parts were played in unison by Lind, Adkins and Trombino" - oxford comma. Check other instances as well - either do it everywhere or don't do it at all.
Removed them across the article. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The whoah vocalizations were intended" - maybe put whoah in quotes.
  • "it features the inclusion of a piano" -> "it includes a piano"
  • "It deals with being half-open, half-closed with a person" - I'm not sure what "half-closed" means.
  • "DreamWorks Records' A&R member Luke Wood" - A&R has been used twice but not written out in its first instance. Its use without writting it out first is rather colloquial.
  • Lind said the label had a solid working relationship with their artists, "[t]hey understand what a career is, like how fragile it is". Full stop before the quotation sign.
  • the second half of Bleed American was "quite strong, and really fleshes out the musical ideas from the record." MOS:LQ
  • The reception section suffers from "A said B, C said D" structure where one opinion is listed after another without much cohesion. I would do some rearranging and summarizing so that each paragraph, for example, focuses on certain aspects that were praised/criticized by reviewers (see WP:RECEPTION for a better explanation). For example, the emo elements could all be organized in one paragraph. As it stands, it is mentioned several times at random places.
  • "30,000 copies", "July 2002", "173,000 copies", "March 2002", "September 2016", "1.6 million" - WP:NBSP needed. Check thoroughly to find other instances I might've missed
  • "The Middle" reached number five on the Billboard Hot 100. I would mention that the Hot 100 is an American chart.
  • "Sweetness" peaked at number 75 on the Billboard Hot 100.[124] It also charted at number two on Alternative Songs -> "..peaked at number 75 on the Billboard Hot 100,[124] number two on Alternative Songs"
  • "Greenwald said Bleed American going platinum" - "going platinum" sounds a little colloquial. FrB.TG (talk) 17:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've done all of these except the reception part, which I'll do next. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@FrB.TG: Done my best with reception; those kind of sections aren't my forte, Danny is better at those, but he's away. Everything has been addressed. MusicforthePeople (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It looks better but it needs some more work as it's still quite repetitive at places. For example, the second paragraph begins with "Multiple reviewers praised the songwriting quality and guitarwork", which already clarifies the aspects picked up for praise. Then we have quotes like "compelling lyrics, driving guitar work", which is almost tautological at this point. The summarizing part can be done better in my opinion. You don't need to name and quote every reviewer. For example, when mentioning the guitar work, I would mention all the positive parts said instead of listing one opinion after another. Something like The guitar work was praised as "driving" and "uplifting" by some reviewers, although Blender felt it undermined the album's mainstream potential. There are better ways to do it than my suggested phrasing, but I hope this gives you an idea of what I'm looking for. The same could be done for the the songwriting part. FrB.TG (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear - the example you provided suggests to me like you are requesting we cut substantial amounts of material; are you sure there will be enough left over if we begin making these types of changes? I reworked that paragraph substantially, and parts of the other two. I will give songwriting a look next. dannymusiceditor oops 06:30, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not a major cut-down, but I was suggesting it be done in summary style instead of "Guitar work was praised. A called it great, B said it was excellent and C thought it was marvelous". I like what you have done here, but you could restore some of the quotes as examples. Something like "The songwriting and guitarwork was praised by ..., with comments on the 'catchy melodies', 'bouncy rhythms' and 'a tacklebox of hooks'". FrB.TG (talk) 07:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would not have thought of that approach without you! Appreciate it. I've attempted to address it accordingly. dannymusiceditor oops 15:48, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Thank you for your patience. I think the reception section is much better now. Supporting mainly on prose and sourcing. FrB.TG (talk) 19:53, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PerfectSoundWhatever[edit]

Unfamiliar with FAC, so will only leave comments, no support/opposing. Please trout me if I say/do anything stupid :)

  • Acclaimed Music seems to just be a list aggregator. Why is it reliable, and why are you using it? It makes more sense to link to the individual lists instead and this feels like an impediment to verifiability.
Looking over the WP:ALBUMS archives, there's a discussion where Dan56 has given various pieces of evidence for reliability. We would link to the original, individual lists if they were online/still existed. I've replaced links for two of them. MusicforthePeople (talk) 16:03, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • odd jobs linking to wiktionary:odd jobs is MOS:OVERLINKING. Any English speaker who knows the meaning of the 2 separate words but not the phrase can infer the phrase's meaning from the following descriptions of the jobs.
  • Taking a look at genres:
    • pop punk is unsourced. Ref 26 backs up pop-punk but not power pop, ref 29 backs up power pop but not pop-punk. Distribute the citations accordingly.
    • Synch infobox genres with prose genres. Emo pop is missing from the infobox.
    • "performed with punk energy and alt-rock smarts" from the Allmusic source (ref 21) implies the album having aspects of alt-rock, not being alt-rock, so I would remove it, especially since there are 2 other citations.
    • Absolutepunk's (ref 26) quote for emo is not great: "[the album] is infused with their now-unmistakable brand of angst-ridden emo, making it a pop-punk sound no other bands have successfully duplicated". A sound being infused with emo does not mean the album is emo.
      • Personally, I disagree and believe that saying a whole album "infused with" emo is strong enough language; however, you pointed out the second clause of the sentence which seems to undermine that very same initial statement. Whatever you're more comfortable with. dannymusiceditor oops 04:41, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Similarly, not happy with citing PunkNews for emo (ref 27). The quote is "If you hate emo, or the poppier side of things, you'll hate this". This does not explicitly attribute the album as emo; it equally says pop music haters would dislike the album, but one wouldn't cite the album as pop.
    • Per the 2 above, I would remove emo, as the claims are flimsy. Besides, we (correctly attributed) cite emo pop, which is a subgenre of emo anyways. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 15:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@PerfectSoundWhatever: Made the changes. MusicforthePeople (talk) 16:03, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi PerfectSoundWhatever, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I'd love to help, but I'm really just not that comfortable with the FAC process and wouldn't be confident enough with applying support/opposes. I am trying to learn more about FAC, hence which is why I left comments, but I can't in good faith vote at the moment. Good luck in your promotion though! — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 02:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


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