Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles Duke/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 May 2020 [1].

Charles Duke[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:59, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Charles Duke, the youngest man to walk on the surface of the Moon (he's 84 years old). The recent death of Alfred Worden reminds me that I would like to have this one through FAC as soon as possible. If the FAC coordinators have any objection, the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/INTERFET logistics/archive1 can be withdrawn. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:59, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review
  • Pass. All images are relevant, correctly captioned, and available under a free license. buidhe 07:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment

Apollo 16 section is really long, hampering readability. Is there any way to break it up? buidhe 07:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how that would improve readability. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • Not a formal image review, but the version of the lede image seems cropped slightly differently on the NASA site.
  • " As lunar module pilot of Apollo 16 in 1972, he became the tenth and youngest person to walk on the Moon." This could be ambiguous, as to whether what is meant is he was the youngest to that point, or the youngest including those (Cernan and Schmitt) who came later.
    Added "(and remains)". He was indeed younger than Cernan and Schmidt, who were born on 14 March 1934 and 3 July 1935. Since no one has been to the Moon since, Duke proudly states that he is still the youngest, although he is 84 years old. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am a little surprised that he attained the rank of Eagle Scout in 1946, when he was at best barely 11. I see the list bears it out. I know in the 1970s the minimum age to be a Boy Scout was 11. Perhaps times were different then, but that seems a bit precocious.
    I can only go on what the sources say. Duke doesn't mention it in his biography, although he mentions his baptism the following year. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wasn't The Long Gray Line released after he was already at Annapolis?
    Ooooh. That is what he says in the book, but as you say that cannot be correct, so it must have been misremembered. (Looking through the list about West Point, the most likely candidate is Francis Goes to West Point, a 1952 comedy.) Removed this claim. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They became engaged on Christmas Day, 1962, and were married by her uncle, Randolph Claiborne, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta, in the Cathedral of Saint Philip,[16] on June 1, 1963.[4]" Awful lot of commas.
    Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are you using a picture of Duke as CapCom in the selection and training section? Would the shot of the Group 5 astronauts work better?
    Substituted an image of astronaut geology training. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "George Low, the Apollo Program manager," Our article on him says he was the Apollo Spacecraft Program Manager, at least from 1967. I think Phillips was the Apollo Program manager.
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " with the command module pilot (CMP) becoming the commander (CDR)." Was this really part of the rotation scheme? It happened but I've never seen anything that said that Borman, McDivitt and Stafford could not have had another Apollo mission had they wanted one.
    And all were. It became policy rather than practice starting with Conrad. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Jack Swigert, a command module specialist from the Nineteen, was designated as CMP. This crew would eventually become the prime crew for Apollo 16." Certainly not in that form. You might want to better define "the Nineteen" as you have not used it as a proper noun previously.
    Added an explanation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The mission was originally scheduled to be flown in late 1969, but in view of the successful outcome of Apollo 11, it was postponed to April 1970.[50]" Well, first to March and then to April.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Showing commendable caution," Opinion?
    Very well. Removed. The problem is that the movie depicts them as fools. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The subsequent explosion on Apollo 13 greatly affected the backup crew, especially Mattingly, who felt that he should have been on board." I don't think Mattingly was reassigned to the backup crew.
    Orloff (p. 268) says he was. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "typhoid Mary" I would capitalize the T.
    Capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and it was hoped that rock samples retrieved by Apollo 16 would provide clues about the processes that formed the highlands.[56]" I might dwell a little more on the hoped-for vulcanism.
    Added a bit. A candidate for most expensive mistake in scientific history. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The astronauts went into quarantine, and were allowed out only to fly T-38s for an hour a day. The day before liftoff, the Apollo Program director, Rocco Petrone saw someone he thought was Duke around the pool at the Holiday Inn. A furious Petrone called the crew quarters demanding to know why Duke had broken quarantine. The staff's protestations that Duke was still there and had not left did not placate Petrone, and they had to track down Duke, who suggested that Petrone might have seen his brother Bill.[65] " If he was in the crew quarters, why did he have to be "tracked down"? Did training continue using this period?
    Yes. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After two orbits," Two full orbits?
    No. TLI occurred during the second orbit. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to mission rules, Orion should have then re-docked with Casper in case Mission Control decided to abort the landing, and use Orion's engines for the return trip to Earth." I would remove the second comma which would remove a bit of ambiguity.
    Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image caption: "The Apollo 16 Command and Service Modules (CSM) ..." In text you earlier referred to the "command and service module (CSM)"
    Removed the "s" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at 2:23:35 UTC on April 21.[75]" Perhaps a leading zero?
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rover-2" Maybe LRV-2? Or just put the LRV acronym after where you mention the Lunar Roving Vehicle and just say LRV later.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " had his suit ruptured or PLSS broken, he would have died.[79]" That is, unless the OPS or the buddy assembly would not suffice.
    Changed to "might have". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Duke had always been fond of Coors Beer, which was only available in Texas on the northern parts, around Dallas and El Paso." I would hesitate to describe El Paso as North Texas. I'd toss an "at the time" in there too for the benefit of those who have not seen Smokey and the Bandit. Austin really isn't southern Texas, so I might say they planned to expand to the rest of the state, if the source will support his.
    Yes, that is supported by the source. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "knocked back" informal?
    Sigh. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some would think "knocked back" is something you do to a Coors.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Coors dealership" I'd stick with distributorship.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:12, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center Certificate of Commendation in 1970," was it called that in 1970?
    No, not until 1973. Before then it was the Manned Spacecraft Center
That's it for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kees08[edit]

Holding place. Kees08 (Talk) 16:42, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would use the cite interview template and add relevant parameters for the oral history
    Okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Distinguished Eagle Scouts, I would change publisher to Boy Scouts of America
    Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a non-self published source that could replace the citation to Duke Ministry For Christ? Even his book would be better
    It's just about what colleges Dottie went to. It's not in the book, so the solution would be to remove it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Same question for Charlieduke.net
    Sigh. Replaced with a citation to Shayler & Burgess. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missing authors
  • Should this have MSC like the other citations? "Astronaut Duke to Leave NASA" (PDF) (Press release). 75-74.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repeating Back to Space seems redundant. Is there any non-self published reliable coverage of this? Might not meet the criteria for inclusion if there is not. "Back To Space
    Let me know. I don't mind deleting it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This format is very different from the other Texas Monthly citation Texas Monthly. Emmis Communications. February 1988. p. 119.
    Removed this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would put the date in the date field "Astronaut Bio: Charles Duke 05/94". NASA Johnson Space Center.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does this have an ID or page number associated? "Leak Develops in Apollo 16 Fuel System" (PDF) (Press release). NASA.
    No, it was a NASA HQ press release. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the BBC episode, any other RS's discuss his inclusion? Also at least could use an access-date, if it does meet the inclusion criteria.
    Don't know of any. Let me know if you think it should be deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to self to clip the audio from Apollo 11 to include in article (if desired)
    I was looking for it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First batch of comments, more to come. Kees08 (Talk) 20:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kees08, are you planning to revisit? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from JennyOz[edit]

Hi Hawkeye, I have only one comment since my AC review...

Comments Support by Zawed[edit]

I reviewed this for A-Class at Milhist back in January and it was in excellent shape then. Looking at it again, I only have a few comments to make:

  • In the lead, his total flying time is presented in present tense but in the body as past tense.
    Changed to the present tense. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In both lead and body, there is mention of Duke being named "the Texan of the Year for 2020". Grammatically, shouldn't it be just "Texan of the Year"?
    Um okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Duke stated that his marriage and relationship with his children became considerably better soon after finding religion." I think this wording could be improved, and suggest: "...with his children significantly improved after finding religion."
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for me. Zawed (talk) 09:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All good, have added my support. Zawed (talk) 23:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Lee Vilenski[edit]

Doing a review (am in wikicup, may claim points)

  • A couple times you use "Nineteen", as a proper noun, but not in the lede. Per MOS:NUM should we use 19? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    MOS:NUMERAL: "Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote in the lede - how famous exactly is he for saying those words? Seems a little excessive unless he is. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There are only two quotes that anyone remembers: "The Eagle has landed" (followed by Charlie Duke) and "That's one small step for [a] man".
  • Should we not use Rubella instead of German Measels in the lede?
    Our article is called rubella, and a search on Google ngrams shows that it it is indeed more common.[2] Swapped them around. I wanted both to appear because it was called "measles' in the movie. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All the best with the Wiki Cup Lee. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright[edit]

Lead:

  • As lunar module pilot of Apollo 16 in 1972, he became (and remains) the tenth and youngest person to walk on the Moon.
    • Add the definite article after as
      What for? It is consistently used in this form in Where No Man Has Gone Before, and German ngrams says it is the normative form. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Explanation accepted - Pendright (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • (and remains) - as of 2019 0r 2020?
      Added an {{as of}}. It will remain the record until someone else walks on the Moon, which won't happen this week, this year, next year, or the year after that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Your unsolicited prognostication is duly noted! Pendright (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • His distinctive Southern drawl became familiar to audiences around the world as the voice of a Mission Control made nervous by a long landing that almost expended all of the lunar module Eagle's fuel.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Replace the indefinite article after by with the definite article.
      That doesn't work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - Pendright (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duke was backup lunar module pilot on Apollo 13.
    Duke was "the" backup
    Same as above - Pendright (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Ken Mattingly had no natural immunity to the disease, Mattingly was replaced as command module pilot by Jack Swigert.
    Consider replacing the second Mattingly with "he"
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On this mission, Duke and John Young landed at the Descartes Highlands and conducted three extravehicular activities (EVAs).
    A comma after Highlands will join the two independent clauses.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early life and education:

  • ... his father volunteered to join the Navy, and was posted to Naval Air Station North Island in California.
    • In the context used here, volunteered and join basically mean the same thing; once he volunteered he was in the US Navy.
      I don't think they do. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      During the war there were two ways to enter a U.S. Military organization; as a draftee or as a volunteer. Either one of these would place you in the service of a military organization. Pendright (talk) 01:20, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes. I don't understand what the issue is here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:38, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      It has evaporated! Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The phrase posted to was not used by the Navy, but assigned to, stationed at, or served at or on board USS ... was usually the phrase(s) used.
      Changed to "assigned". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reader is provided with information on the beginning and middle of his father’s military service during WW II, but it stalls-out there for want of an ending?
    I was only covering his father as much as it was relevant to Charlie. Let me know if there is anything more to be added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Was Daytona Beach his last duty station and where and when was he discharged.Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Added that it was in 1946. Hawkeye7 (discuss)
  • ... for his final two years of schooling.
    It was his final two years of "high school".
    It wasn't a high school, it was a college-preparatory school. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Good enough! Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The United States Air Force Academy had only just been established and would not graduate its first class until 1959, ...
    only just - one is unneeded!
    Deleted only. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For your information: List of Eagle Scouts

Air Force:

  • For the next phase of training, he went to Webb Air Force Base ...
    Added "his"
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nonetheless, orders came through for him to attend class 64-C, which commenced in August 1964 at Edwards Air Force Base in California.
    which "would commence" in August 1964
    Don't see the value in this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
August would have beem prospective - Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Selection and training:

  • Duke spotted a front-page article in the Los Angeles Times, and realized that he met all the requirements.
    amd realizied that he "could meet" all the requirements.
    No, he already did. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Astronaut training included four months of studies covering subjects such as astronomy, orbital mechanics and spacecraft systems.
    Add the definite article before astronaut
    Don't see the value in this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Astronaut is a common noun Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lunar module specialist:

  • For this reason, Duke served as CAPCOM for the LM orbit, activation, checkout, and rendezvous on Apollo 10.
    Consider this: For this reason, Duke served as CAPCOM for the LM orbit; including activation, checkout, and rendezvous for Apollo 10.
    That is not correct. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As CAPCOM, he became the voice of a Mission Control nervous by a long landing that almost expended all of the LM Eagle's fuel.
    Change the "a" before long landing to "the"
Okay Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo 13:

  • ... but in view of the successful outcome of Apollo 11, it was postponed to March and then April 1970.
    Replace "to" with "until"
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Young, Mattingly and Duke worked in the simulators to develop emergency procedure for the crew,
    ... to develop emergency procedure?
    Typo. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apollo 16 - Training:

  • Young, Mattingly and Duke were officially named as the crew of Apollo 16, ...
Replace "of" with "for"
Missed Pendright (talk)
  • It was believed to be volcanic in origin and mainly composed of basalt, based upon the tones of gray observed from Earth.
Replace the comma with a semicolon
Missed Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Outbound voyage:

Lunar surfce:

  • As a result of the delay, powered descent to the lunar surface began about six hours behind schedule, and Young and Duke began their descent to the surface at an altitude 5,000 m (16,000 ft) higher than normal.
    Replace the comma after delay with a semicolon
    That would be incorrect use of a semicolon. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I stand corrected Pendright (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In a stay of 71 hours and 14 minutes, Duke and Young conducted three excursions onto the lunar surface, during which Duke logged 20 hours and 15 minutes in extravehicular activities involving the emplacement and activation of scientific equipment and experiments, the collection of nearly 97 kilograms (213 lb) of rock and soil samples, and the evaluation and use of the LRV over the roughest surface yet encountered on the Moon.
    At71 words, this sentence is long by most standards.
    Split sentence in two. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Later life:

  • He was also a consultant of Lockheed Martin.
    Replace of with "for"
    Replaced. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright (talk) 01:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting - Pendright (talk) 17:25, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG notes[edit]

  • Some serious WP:NBSP work is needed. Samples: Apollo 16 (we don't want a hanging 16), and all units of measure.
    Units of measure are handled by the {{convert}} template. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last citation is missing publisher.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The placement of the sentence about his brother Bill's death seems odd in that paragraph, but I don't have a suggestion for how to fix that.
  • in a 1-hour, 23 minute EVA ... why a hyphen on 1-hr, but not on 23 minute? Perhaps recast the whole sentence to eliminate any need for hyphens?
    Re-worded the sentence just to get rid of a hyphen. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Holy cow, there is a lot of blue in here ... I wish some could be eliminated. Do we need (samples) valedictorian, senior year, jet aircraft, seasickness and so on? It's a rather daunting sea of blue.
    "Valedictorian" is an American term; I had to look it up again now just to reply to this. In Australia, we refer to the student who achieved the highest marks as the "dux", but it has no ceremonial role, as there are no high school graduation ceremonies. The term "senior year" is equally unfamiliar. Unlinked the other two. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me, did not do a thorough read. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • I would give the full title of Shayler & Burgess 2017, carrying on after the colon since you seem to do so for other books.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you being consistent in capitalizations of articles in the refs? Compare 114 with 116, for example.
    Adjusted capitalisation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something screwy is going on with ref 94. " No. March 1976." ?
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 99 and 116, and possibly others, require registration/subscription tags.
    Both are accessible without a subscription by turning off the ad blocker. Doesn't rise to the level of "limited". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest Andrew Chaikin's book as a further reading.
    Added, although I have never read it Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, all sources seem of encyclopedic quality (even the book on twins) and are appropriately and consistently used.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:54, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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