Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Duckport Canal/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 29 October 2022 [1].

Duckport Canal[edit]

Nominator(s): Hog Farm Talk 22:16, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Take two on this one. Last time couldn't attract many reviews; maybe it'll be of more interest this time around. Hog Farm Talk 22:16, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Formal criteria passed (licenses fine, alt descriptions already there). My only issue is that on the map, the canal isn't highlighted, and I'd expect it to be so in some way if the article is about the canal. Also, the map could benefit from vectorisation, but that's not a pressing issue. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • No location map(s)?
    • @Gog the Mild: - does what I've added help somewhat? Since the location RE Vicksburg is indicated by the other map, I've gone with a large-scale USA map. The pin precision admittedly isn't the best; I can't turn up any coordinates for Duckport, so I've had to use what the Sons of Confederate Veterans claim the coordinates of the modern marker are. Hog Farm Talk 23:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Trees ... hampered the use of the canal". ?
    • I've added in the lead that this canal utilized existing bayous, and that the trees had grown up in the bayous
  • "cut the Confederacy into two halves". Suggest 'cut the Confederacy in two'.
    • Done
  • "moved upriver to Vicksburg, Mississippi." Inserting 'Confederate-held' may aid comprehension in the non-specialist.
    • Done
  • "it had also seen difficulties with trees blocking the channel." Were these fallen and/or uprooted trees which were washed into the channel? If so, perhaps say so; if not, what were they?
    • Clarified - these were trees that had grown up in the bayous that the canal ran through
  • "creating a path to New Carthage, Louisiana". I think "path" is an unfortunate choice of word. :-)
    • Went with a different word choice
  • "Grant ordered troops to march down the Louisiana side of the Mississippi River". For those of us not over familiar with mid-western local geography, which side would that be?
    • Clarified
  • "between the entrance to the canal cut and the ending point". The ending point of the cut?
    • Rephrased, hopefully this is clearer
  • "she was unable to do so due to low water and trees". Again, many readers will wonder why there were trees in a canal.
    • should be cleared up now
  • "Grant himself inspected the canal". Suggest deleting "himself". Who else would he be?
    • Done
  • "via the cut at the upper end of the canal." Does "upper" mean 'north'?
    • Clarified
  • "Clearing continued through April 23". Clearing what? You haven't mentioned it starting.
    • Rephrased a bit, so that it ties back to "and additional soldiers worked to clear stumps and trees" more directly
  • "the knowledge that enough additional boats would become available to Grant to make a general supply line". I fail to see how - in the absence of a canal - this helps, if he couldn't run the boats past the guns of Vicksburg. (Although you haven't mentioned that anywhere, so do I have it wrong? You are aware that you haven't actually stated why any of these canals were necessary? And were they boats, not ships?
    • I've removed the sentence in question; it doesn't really make sense in the overall source, either. I suspect that the canal was necessary because running boats past Vicksburg was riskier, but none of the sources say this outright. I've got one more hope to get this cleared up - I was able to get a deal of a lifetime on Volumes II and III of Ed Bearss's Vicksburg trilogy, and they should be arriving later this week. I don't know what all Bearss has to say about Duckport, or if Duckport is actually in Volume I which I don't have access to, but maybe there will be something there. Hog Farm Talk 00:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "allowing Grant to use it in larger scale to bring ..." Is this a USEng thing? I would write 'allowing Grant to use it on a larger scale to bring ...'
    • Switched over. I don't know if that's actually a USEng thing or just how we talked growing up on the farm
Please, please write an article in the style of how you talked on the farm.
  • "below the city". Would that be south of the city? If so, how far? Or on the river bank, below the city on the bluff?
    • I've clarified that this is downriver
  • "although it was commemorated by". Past tense. What happened to the marker?
    • "Little is left of the path of the Duckport Canal. As of 2016, it was commemorated by a historic marker in Madison Parish, Louisiana" - is that better? The reliable source discussing the marker is from 2016, so I can't really put it in the present tense while still giving the as of statement. (I'm unaware of any RS that regularly report on the existence of these markers).

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:21, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Gog the Mild: - I'll try to get to the low-hanging fruit today, but I'm going to be out of town this weekend and unable to dig deeply into sources until Sunday night or Monday evening. Hog Farm Talk 13:54, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It has not been open 48 hours yet. Absolutely no rush. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:54, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like I haven't addressed clearly enough in the article that chunks of the path of these canals were going through existing swamps/bayous that of course had obnoxious vegetation in them. I'll get that cleared up when I get back into the sources in a couple days. Hog Farm Talk 15:05, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: - Bearss arrived and I've added some material from his work; hopefully things are a little clearer now. Hog Farm Talk 01:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Background: Have you got a source which would permit you to insert something like 'This was the last Confederate-held fortification on the Mississippi preventing the Union making free use of the river for both military and commercial purposes' or similar immediately before "Union vessels bombarded the city in late May"? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, although that will require adding a mention of the later fortification and occupation of Port Hudson, Louisiana. I'll take care of these two points after work today. Hog Farm Talk 13:32, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I forgot that. Good. I think that will bring the canal into context. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added mention of both Vicksburg being the last point for awhile in 1862 and the later fortification of Port Hudson. I also took the time to recite the last bit of American Battlefield Trust referencing, as I felt that was an example of lazy referencing. Hog Farm Talk 02:22, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Iazyges[edit]

Comments from ChrisTheDude[edit]

  • wikilink bayou (in lead and body) - not a very well-known term outside the US, I would say
    • Linked in the lead and at the first spot in the body it isn't in a proper name
  • "Work began on another canal at Lake Providence known as the Lake Providence Canal, in February" - not sure that comma is needed
    • Removed
  • "The soldiers's daily work routine" - soldiers's?? :-)
    • @ChrisTheDude: - I'm not sure what to do here. In school, I was always taught that it would be soldiers' but was told that Wikipedia wants otherwise at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Landis' Missouri Battery/archive1. Hog Farm Talk 13:51, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Hog Farm: - the comment at that other FAC refers to a case involving a person's name that ends in S - I always used to refer to anything that belonged to me as "Chris' [whatever]" but have since been told that it really should be "Chris's [whatever]". This is a different scenario, though, this involves a plural noun. When dealing with something belonging to a group of people, it's always s' and never s's. See, for example, this LA Times headline, which says "Dodgers’ season ends" not "Dodgers’s season ends" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • These little niggles are all I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:48, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:51, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry[edit]

  • Not the Duckport Canal?
    • Added
  • I was surprised that the opening sentence didn't tell me what it was. I know Wikipedia articles tend to fall into the trap of stating the obvious ("the canal was a canal") but I think this leaves something to be desired.
    • Going with "The Duckport Canal was an unsuccessful logistical waterway built by" for now, but "unsuccessful logistical waterway" is mumbo-jumbo in itself. I'm open to anything better for this
      • Unsuccessful military waterway, perhaps?
        • Done
  • During the opening days of the American Civil War, Dates for the war might be good here.
    • I've added the year the war began
  • A brief explanatory gloss on bayou might be helpful.
    • Are you okay with this being a footnote just cited to the dictionary? Bayou is a pretty common word/concept in the US, so American sources just never define it.
      • It's essentially a marsh or swamp isn't it? Couldn't you say something along those lines and leave the link for anyone who wants to know more?
        • I've prefaced the two links to bayou with "swampy" to give the general impression of what it was
  • Interesting that you use The Duckport Canal in the aftermath section.
    • I've added "the" in the places it wasn't before
  • It had also been determined [by whom?]
    • Clarified
      • Now we have a subject, can we use the active voice? :)
        • Done
  • could pass the Vicksburg batteries relatively safely Relative to what?
    • Reworded a bit and clarified
  • Little is left of the path Any idea how much? And any possibility of a photo, even if it's just of a patch of grass where a canal used to be?
    • I'm not finding much. The source this is pulled from says little remains, but doesn't go into details. There's a couple photos of the marker online, but nothing that I think could be usable for copyright purposes. I'm probably going to be in the Vicksburg area in late November, but the marker site appears to be in a rather isolated spot that probably isn't the greatest place to try to go. You go too far out there, and it turns into Southern Comfort (1981 film)

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • What makes Bastian a high-quality reliable source?
  • What's the source for the data presented in the map?
  • Use a consistent date format. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nikkimaria: - Sorry I missed this! Dates should all be in mdy format now. Bastian has been published on this topic in The Military Engineer (an academic publication run by the Society of American Military Engineers) on the topic of Grant's Vicksburg canals before, so I think he's okay here even though Burd Street has inconsistent quality of publications. I'll find a map in a RS book that supports the inset map once I get off work. Hog Farm Talk 18:50, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added a source that, while not quite exact to the map, is multiple maps that largely mirror the content shown in the map here. Hog Farm Talk 03:29, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Hi Nikki, pls let me know when you have a sec if you're good with the above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Wehwalt[edit]

Support The only thing I see to quibble about is the three events that took place on April 18, the dates seem to be a bit awkward. Can they be consolidated a bit?--Wehwalt (talk) 10:11, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm smoothed the phrasing out here. Hog Farm Talk 13:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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