Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Edward Dando/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 26 June 2023 [1].

Edward Dando[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edward Dando was a rather odd, slightly soiled character. Not much is really known about him (sources even disagree about his name and nationality), but what is known is that he came to public attention in London for stealing oysters, once consuming 300 of them in one sitting. Indeed, his consumption of oysters was so prestigious, William Makepeace Thackeray based a short story on him and Charles Dickens compared him to Alexander the Great. A small footnote to London history, but an interesting one. Cheers. - SchroCat (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

(t · c) buidhe 01:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
  • "once having eaten 25 dozen" => "once eating 25 dozen"
    • I went with "having once eaten" instead - SchroCat (talk) 11:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "had been arrested 2 years previously after consuming 2 pots of ale and 2 pounds" - I would write all those 2s as words
    • Ordinarily I would, but with a plethora of numbers over a couple of sentences (including fractions and those over 10), I've gone with all digits, so we're in line with the consistency part of wp:NUMBERS. - SchroCat (talk) 11:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "coming to 3s. 6d" - maybe link the d as well as the s......?
  • "in the first he ate oysters and bread to the sum of 3s and 6d" - different way of writing 3/6 to how you did earlier......
  • "cost between 1d each and sometimes three for a penny" - reads slightly, partly because of the "sometimes" and party because you put the more expensive price first - I would suggest it would be more natural to put the cheaper price first
  • "and .25 imperial pints (0.14 L) of rum" - looks a little odd with the 0 before the decimal point in one case but not the other
  • That's it. An interesting read! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:34, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks Chris - I'm very much obliged to you for these. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from UndercoverClassicist[edit]

I reviewed this at GA: it's one of my favourite articles. Will hold off until a few more people have chimed in, but very glad to see this here. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Made a few comments, almost all grammatical nit-picks. It's a lovely article and it's hard not to love its subject. Very nice work. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an ongoing pandemic" (lead): what does ongoing mean here? It almost seems to imply that it's still ongoing as of 2023. As I read it, it simply means "happening", so we're in an unfortunate place where it's redundant if kept but leaves a pretty inelegant sentence if removed. Would suggest a rephrase, since there's definitely value in contextualising the cholera. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in both the London daily press and in local newspapers"... surely either both in ... and in or in both ... and local newspapers?
  • Not sure about the phrasing of "There is little information about Dando's early life": I think we either need something like little surviving information, little published information etc, or a rework. After all, it's not that the information doesn't (or didn't) exist, it's that nobody today has (yet?) found it and written it up.
  • "Numerous sources give his name as Edward Dando, and his nationality as British": I'd remove the comma here.
  • "the arresting police officer said Dando had been arrested two years previously after consuming two pots of ale and two pounds (0.9 kg) of rump steak and onions and then refusing to pay" - lots of and here, though not a major problem.
  • "While in prison, Dando spent...": "While in prison" could be cut: it's clear enough that he's in prison, and certainly picked up in a few words' time by "from his fellow prisoners".
  • "in the Guildford house of correction in Surrey": I'd suggest "the house of correction in Guildford, Surrey": the current phrasing suggests that Guildford was its name rather than location. Why was the punishment here more severe than Brixton?
  • I’ve capitalised Guildford House of Correction as it looks like that was its name.
    There’s no explanation on the difference of sentencing unfortunately. – SchroCat (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Was the comment about a more severe punishment simply reflecting that he had to spend longer in Guildford? The impression I got from reading was that the Guildford prison would be less comfortable than the one in Brixton. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 06:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've tweaked this again as I've looked at both sources this time. The Morning Advertiser actually has the important bit here (silly me for only looking at John Bull yesterday!): the magistrate selected Guildford deliberately as "the disciple of that prison ... was more severe than Brixton". Hopefully that should cover the information side of things. - SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the 1830s oysters cost between three for a penny": not sure this is quite grammatical (they cost 1/3 of a penny): tentatively suggest "could be bought three for a penny, or for up to 1d each"?
  • I think it's worth explaining the weird imperial units like "seven pats of butter": how much is that, roughly?
  • I don't think a "pat" was ever a formal measure - I've not found any reference to an equivalent, but if you know or can find one I'd be delighted to find out! - SchroCat (talk) 18:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, fair enough: perhaps link to wikt:pat#Noun? It's not exactly a common word. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 06:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. Now added. - SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In early December 1830 when he was back in court again, one newspaper took to calling him...": comma after 1830?
  • Not sure one is needed there (although I'm open to persuasion!) – SchroCat (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a go: "when he was back in court again" is a parenthetical clause. The sentence "In early December 1830, one newspaper took to calling him..." makes perfect sense without it, so it should be bracketed off by commas. Just to show it's not an Americanism, here's University of Nottingham (look at the top of their section on commas). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, done. - SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he consumed bread, butter and coffee to the amount of 1s 6d": to the value of, or simply worth, I think: not sure this is quite grammatical as written.
  • "two plates of beef à la mode and brandy": as written, this sounds like the brandy was on the plate: was it? If not, perhaps and drunk brandy...?
  • Is it worth WLing "City" in Dando's quote to City of London?
  • "Covered in mud and with a noticeable black eye, he was imprisoned for eight days" - for public drunkenness?
  • "Some attendees in court gave him money to tell them his story, and this was duly reported in the press": not sure of the antecedent of this: did the press report his story, or that people had paid for it?
  • "An 1878 dictionary of slang terms described a "dando"": I think MOS:WORDSASWORDS would like dando italicised.
  • "In the 1834 publication The Book of Aphorisms": it seems odd not to name the author here; is there a reason not to?
  • Added. (The reason was that he’s not a notable individual, so I’m not sure it adds much in the way of understanding, but it does no harm, so why not) – SchroCat (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "including aphorism 405": I think this should be "in aphorism 405"
  • "Featherstone ... sees the background as pertinent to his approach, even if he was not making a political point": I had to read this a couple of times to work it out. Suggest "the background of the Swing Riots"? Not totally sure what "pertinent to his approach" means, precisely.
  • "compared it unfavourably to": a can of worms, but compared with would generally be seen as the correct form in in BrE.
  • I think the bit about Dando and Disraeli could be a little clearer as to exactly what Fraser's saw as the connection (that Disraeli worked his way through principles like Dando worked his way through oysters). It's there in the text but took a bit of thought.
Many thanks for these. Most covered, but a couple of comments above and still a couple to do. - SchroCat (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you: that's very kind. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley[edit]

Happy to support the elevation of this pleasing article. A few minor drafting points, none of which affect my support:

  • "Dando had been arrested 2 years previously …." (and the rest of the sentence and following) – I suspect we shall end up agreeing to differ about this, but I think it is better to mix and match figures and words for numbers within a sentence or paragraph than to write "2 pots" where the normal form would be "two pots", and so on. This wouldn't be in breach of MoS diktats as far as I can see.
  • Ditto for "ate 13 dozen (156) oysters and a half-quartern loaf, washed down with 5 bottles of ginger beer" – if the odd-looking "5 bottles", why not "a ½-quartern loaf"?
  • "the poor, who purchased them from oyster stalls" – "purchased" seems a very formal, not to say grand, word for such a humble transaction: perhaps just "bought"?
  • "News of his next arrest and court appearance" – a while since Dando's name has been mentioned: might be better to use it rather than a pronoun here.
  • "… and followed Dando eating 11 dozen (132) large oysters, a half-quartern loaf and 11 pats of butter without being able to pay for it." – two things here. First, "eating" is here used as a gerund – a noun in effect – and grammatically needs a possessive: "Dando's eating" or "his eating". Secondly all those oysters, bread and butter need a plural pronoun – "them" rather than "it"
  • "sixpence-worth of brandy" – Looks a bit odd. The OED has "sixpennyworth", which I suggest would be preferable.
  • "The jacket, I think, came from Brixton; the waistcost ..." – is "…cost" a typo for "…coat"?

That's my lot. The article strikes me as meeting all the FA criteria and I add my support without further ado. (Anyone wishing for further ado may leave a message on my talk page.) – Tim riley talk 07:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Tim, I'm much obliged to you for your comments here and at the PR. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking smashing now. Excellent stuff – a pleasure to read and review. Tim riley talk 20:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HAL[edit]

Some of these are stretches. As usual disregard if these are British/American English issues:

  • "On an appearance in court" --> maybe "In a court appearance"
  • Let me mull on this: I think the former is stronger, but I'm not sure why, so need to think it through. - SchroCat (talk) 07:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe link "quartern" to the wiktionary entry
  • "Outside the court, the owner of the oyster stall threw a bucket of water over him and beat him with his cane" - do the sources say if the oyster-stall owner was prosecuted?
  • Is Ann Featherstone worthy of a redlink?
  • Same goes for the City of London Theatre
  • "A dictionary of slang terms from 1878" --> "An 1878 dictionary of slang terms" or so I assume. I doubt there's a dictionary which only contains entries that are slang terms spoken in 1878.
  • In the parting poem, shouldn't the citations come after "Anonymous, "Dando, the oyster-eater"? Or is that unsupported?

I think Dando would have fit in quite nicely stateside - "his unusual habit" is pretty common over here. Nice work and interesting subject as usual. ~ HAL333 03:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Hal, All done, bar two. The Featherstone one I don't think would work - a quick internet search shows not quite enough to clear NPROF, but I would be delighted to be wrong on that one. On the court appearance, I think the former is stronger, but will mull it over after more coffee. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a huge issue either way. Happy to support. ~ HAL333 15:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Hal - that's much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from PMC[edit]

Parking myself here to do this. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 09:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • No issues with reliability of sources. Contemporary news sources are used appropriately, and are supported by reliable present-day sources.
  • Formatting looks generally good as well.
    • Minor quibble - OCLC/ISBN consistency - why do some books have them listed while others don't?
      • Sheer carelessness, nothing more. Now added. - SchroCat (talk) 05:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may wish to archive internet-based sources

Really not much else to pick at. It's a well-written article in general, and what a topic. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PMC, I’m much obliged. I’ll add the archived versions later on today. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 05:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me, easy pass on sourcing here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks PMC - I'm much obliged. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ps. The internet sources are now all archived. - SchroCat (talk) 08:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • "the shop owner had kicked him and thrown him out of the shop." Literally kicked him or is this an idiom?
  • Literally, according to the source. -SchroCat (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "drank sixpennyworth-worth of brandy" some problem here, I think.
  • Why "3s 6d" but "18d"?
  • "and drank two pints of ale and 0.25 imperial pints (0.14 L) of rum." Why footnote some conversions and give others inline?
  • All ‘straight’ conversions are given inline; where there is some definition of a measurement no longer used (quartern loaf and pot) this is in the footnote. - SchroCat (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's it. Very interesting article.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:27, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Wehwalt; much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 18:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Wehwalt - I'm much obliged, as I also am for the addition on the talk page. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Tim O'Doherty[edit]

Not sure how to comment in FACs, so please correct me if I'm going about this the wrong way. I have just one query:

  • I've noticed inconsistency in how quotes are treated. Some use the British English style: that is, the full stop after the quotation mark ("like this example".), but some use the AmE style, where the full stop (or, in this case, "period") comes before the QM, "like this." I'm not fussed either way, but it would be good for them to be formatted consistently. Either way, I support this GA as an FA. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Tim O'Doherty. In terms of the punctuation, this uses WP:LQ, which is to say that parts of sentences have the punctuation outside, but a grammatically complete sentence has the punctuation inside. (Or at least it should do. If I’ve missed any, or got the, wrong, please let me know! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @SchroCat - At first glance, I can only find one: Dickens's Alexander the Great quip, which ends in a full stop; however, looking at the source, it says "Alexander wept at having no more worlds to conquer, and Dando died because there were no more oyster shops to victimise." Am I missing something, or should it be "oyster shops" rather than "oysters"? Regards, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Tim O'Doherty - nice spot no both counts. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Cheers. I wish you good luck for this FAC; you may or may not remember the infobox debate we had a few weeks ago, when I first read this article. I enjoyed it thoroughly then, and still do so now; it's a very slick piece of work, I'll admit. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:07, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Dr. Blofeld[edit]

Very interesting article and curious choice to promote! Looks like it has been very well reviewed and has been developed as far as it can be and meets the criteria. Good job! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Doc - I’m much obliged to you! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments[edit]

  • Featherstone (2013) needs a page range.
  • Not possible with an ebook, I think: the ranges show up as pp., which isn’t the same as a location. Any thoughts on a workaround would be welcome! - SchroCat (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Freeman (1989) is not used.
  • Added back in (it disappeared in an earlier edit (by me) when it shouldn’t have been. - SchroCat (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No OCLC for Dickens?
  • The books both have an OCLC, I think? - SchroCat (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Gog, much appreciated: comments above. Cheers, SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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