Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Francis Willughby/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 18 March 2019 [1].

Francis Willughby[edit]

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I live about 20 miles from Willughby's former home, and the publication of two major books in the last few years made it a no-brainer to write about the "first true ornithologist". Many thanks to Shyamal for invaluable help with sources, and to aa77zz for a detailed pre-FAC review, comments and additional sources, which have greatly improved on my original versionJimfbleak - talk to me? 14:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Aa77zz[edit]

I had my say at the review on the talk page. This is a well written article that I enjoyed reading. - Aa77zz (talk) 16:33, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support and help Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Willughby_ray_europe.jpg: base map link is broken
  • File:Palazzo_Publico_Bologna_by_Ferdinand_-Cospi.png needs a US PD tag. Same with File:Pepys_copy_of_Willughby's_Ornithology.jpg, File:Willughby_Ornithology_Title_Page.jpg, File:James_Edward_Smith.jpg
  • File:Playingcardsvanda.jpg should include a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:43, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments from Tim riley[edit]

I enjoyed this article enormously, and look forward to supporting its promotion. A few very, very minor quibbles about points of drafting:

  • Lead
    • Is it correct to refer to "Great Britain" before the Act of Union in Seventeen Hundred and Something? (Question asked from a position of flawless ignorance.)
  • GB is a geographical entity as the largest island, but changed to England and Wales for clarity Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Willughby had suffered a number of episodes of illness" – perhaps a slightly roundabout way of saying "suffered bouts of illness"?
  • Early life
    • Forgive the idiot question, but if our man spelled his name in the odd way he did, how come his dad didn't?
  • Spelling of names was still fluid in the 17th century, although not as much as it was a little earlier in Shakespeare's time and it seems to have been a personal quirk of FW
    • Last sentence of first para – what a treat to see the absolute construction used so elegantly!
    • "with James Duport, who shared the Willughbys' royalist sympathies in the English Civil War, as his tutor. John Ray" – possibly the result of reading late at night, but by the time I got to the end of the sentence I had to go back again to pick up the thread, particularly as the phrase "fellow-commoner with John Ray" (I missed the comma lurking under the citation) put it into my head that Ray was his fellow commoner; perhaps something on the lines of "his tutor was John Ray, who shared the Willughbys' royalist sympathies in the English Civil War"?
    • "Ray was elected as a Fellow in 1667" – of Trinity, presumably, but it could be clearer.
  • Cheshire and Wales
    • "Willughby left his companions when he fell ill at Gloucester while they continued" – would it not be more accurate to say they left him? "Parted company", perhaps?
  • Europe
    • "Spain, which he considered backwards" – shouldn't that be "backward"?
  • Later life and death
    • "and it has been suggested" – recently or ages ago? If it's still a current possibility it might be nice to say so.
    • "died at the age of nineteen, while his daughter ... married the Duke of Chandos" – must have put a damper on the wedding celebrations. I'd beware of using "while" to mean "and" or "although". As Fowler puts it, "the temporal sense that lurks in while may lead those who use it into the absurdity of seeming to say that two events occurred, or will occur, simultaneously which cannot possibly do so". ("The Dean read the lesson, while the Bishop preached the sermon").
    • "a patron of naturalist Mark Catesby" – an unexpected and rather unwelcome false title.
    • "present at the interment with the family" – theoretically ambiguous. Nobody will really suppose he was interred with the family but it might still be safer to say "present with the family at the interment"
  • Birds
    • "Emma Willoughby" – as with our man's father, one wonders why his widow spelled her surname differently.

That's my meagre harvest of comments and queries. I'll look in again soon, when I hope and expect to give my hearty support for promotion to FA. Tim riley talk 23:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very pleased to support the promotion of this article. Highly readable, unobtrusively stylish prose, balanced, well and widely referenced, and as far as this layman can tell comprehensive. I enjoyed it a lot, and learnt all sorts of things too. Clearly meets the FA criteria in my view. I'll be happy to do a source review if someone more expert doesn't volunteer. Tim riley talk 09:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments from Chiswick Chap[edit]

This looks a very worthy FA which I will read now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is really very little to add to the comments already made:

  • It might be worth linking Ray and others in the image captions.
  • "it has recently been suggested" - always a hostage to time's wingèd arrow. Perhaps "in 2018 it was suggested".
  • The leaf-cutter bee of the image was described by Kirby in 1802.
  • Maybe add the date of Smith's opinion, 1788, to the image of Smith.
  • "previous writers, such as Conrad Gessner". Might be worth glossing him, e.g. "the naturalist Conrad Gessner" or by mentioning his Historia animalium.
  • It might be worth saying that "Ornithologiae libri tres" means "Three books of ornithology" (explaining why the title begins with a pesky genitive).
  • "a handwritten book containing wildlife paintings from Leonard Baldner." The paintings were by Baldner: it'd be nice if that could be clarified without making the sentence too clunky.
  • See footnote i. Although some extant versions were indeed painted by Baldner, that's not the case with FW's copies. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the main species' descriptions": the apostrophe is not needed, we can use species as an adjectival noun.

That's about it from me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks from me, and congratulations on a fascinating article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:01, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your help and support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM[edit]

What a great topic.

  • I wonder if a link to game studies or similar would be appropriate in the lead?
  • Dablink in the map caption
  • "Sir Francis Willoughby" Is that spelling deliberate?
  • "The tables they produced were used by Wilkins as part of a unifying scheme later published as An Essay towards a Real Character, and a Philosophical Language in 1668." Tables of what? This isn't completely clear to me. Plants and animals? But the book is about language?
  • I've expanded to make it clearer. The study of language was important to Wlkins in his search for a way to rationalise the terminology of animals and plants. The idea was sound, although it had some batty aspects the way he tackled it Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:13, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the MOS calls on us to use Title Case for book titles - unless there's an exception for dated works?
  • Check punctuation and flow in the sentence beginning "Although Ray claimed"?
  • I've tweaked this slightly, although to be honest I'm not sure what's wrong with the punctuation Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:38, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The journey through the Alps was arduous, with poor mountain tracks, bad weather and little food except bread, and it was 6 October before they reached their destination, where Skippon listed 60 species of fish and 28 kinds of birds he had noted in the Venetian markets." Reference?
  • "He also disliked the land and the people: almost desolate... tyrannical inquisition... multitude of whores... wretched laziness... very like the Welsh and Irish" Why italics rather than speech marks?
  • "The first child, Francis, died at the age of nineteen, while his daughter Cassandra Willoughby" It's not clear who the his refers to, here.
  • "having to defend a bitterly disputed inheritance put him under more strain" Do we have any more information about this?
  • You link will at the second mention, not the first; I'm not sure I'd bother at all.
  • "to help achieve this aim" What aim, sorry?
  • Would it be possible to include a bit more mention of his game/mathematical work in the life section? The impression we might get is that basically all his work was biological or linguistic.
  • The problem here is a lack of material. Although he was a competent mathematician, he wasn't primarily active in that field, and little survives; his work on probability in games might have been important, but no trace of any manuscript survives. His interest in games was unknown until that manuscript was found in the Nottingham archive in the 1990s, and as far as I know isn't mentioned by Ray and only tangentially by Cassandra Willughby. Birkhead (2018) has fewer than five pages in a 300+ page book on this aspect, which I think fairly reflects that all we have is the manuscript of the Book of Games. As far as surviving sources go, virtually all his other known work was biological or linguistic Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:09, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • " had less knowledge, patience and judgment than Ray" Again, why italics rather than quotes?

Really great read; I've learnt a lot. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is everything resolved from your perspective, Josh? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ian Rose and Jimfbleak: Please don't hold up anything on my account; I'm afraid I probably can't go back through this today and then I'm going to be away for a few days. I'm happy with Jim's responses; a glance at the article suggests that the pictures (all right aligned) look a little crowded in places, but there may not be a suitable solution to that. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ian Rose:, with regard to the image placement, I've always gone for align all right in my FAs without previous problems, and I think the guidance to alternate was abandoned long ago. I think all the images are relevant, although the final one, of J E Smith, could be sacrificed if it's an issue, cheers Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Cwmhiraeth[edit]

An impressive article, just a few quibbles:-

  • "Ray was elected as a Fellow of the Royal Society in 1667, but was excused the subscription because of his relative poverty." it seemed curious to go back to Ray after you have dealt with Wilkins.
  • "Near Llanberis they were shown a local lake fish ..." he probably visited Llanberis long before he got to West Wales!
  • Although they doubled back from Anglesey to Llanberis before heading south, that isn't obvious, now tweaked to clarify Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:28, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "..the study of languages was and writing systems was part of this philosophy,.."- this sentence needs attention.
  • "to buy a handwritten book containing wildlife paintings from Leonard Baldner." - you don't mention the subject of the book here, and give the impression it was illustrated by Baldner but written by someone else.
  • Tweaked sentence and footnote to make it clear Baldner wrote the text. Baldner drew the illustrations in some copies, but not FW's, see footnote. There's discussion on the talk page at the last bullet point of aa77zz's comments. Although FW had two copies, we don't now when he obtained the second one. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:28, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What happened to Middleton Hall when Francis Willoughby died? I would have expected Thomas Willoughby to inherit.
  • All the children were minors at his death, so his widow was legally the owner until they were old enough, and when she remarried her awful husband ran the estate as he saw fit, all three children leaving home because of his general unpleasantness. When Thomas reached majority he inherited Wollaton Hall, which he restored, but it took some time to get access to Middleton. The first para of "Insects" mentions that. I don't think Thomas or his sister ever moved back to Middleton, but it remained in the family until it was sold, as was Wollaton, in 1920 Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:28, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lost text looked at probability with regard to card and dice games." - "looked at" does not seem quite right.
  • Having reached the end of the article, I went back to the lead and thought it a very good summary of the rest of the article. Altogether an excellent read! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think this article meets the FA criteria and I have added my support above. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your helpful comments and support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • Spotchecks not done
  • All links in sources are working correctly
  • Ref 55: I can't see where this is defined in the cited sources
  • Ref 71: requires p. not pp.
  • Ref 100: should be "Johanson et al" for consistency
  • Ref 108: does not appear to be defined in the cited sources

The sources appear to be of the appropriate high quality and, subject to the minor issues raised above, are uniformly presented. Brianboulton (talk) 23:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton many thanks for your review. I've fixed the oversights at refs 71 and 100. My practice in this and my previous FAs is to list books (which may have multiple references to different pages) at "cited sources" and web pages and journals just as simple references, since journals give an article page range rather than individual pages. I think I've been consistent on this, with, for example 56, 104 and 106 being treated similarly. The only difference I can see with the two journal refs you quote is that Birkhead, Charmantier and Ogilvie also have entries in the cited sources book list, but these two journal refs don't come from those books. I may be completely missing something here, my apologies if that's the case Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:10, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Understood – all OK. Brianboulton (talk) 13:09, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Francis_Willughby/archive1&oldid=888413553"