Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fritz the Cat/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:47, 25 May 2010 [1].

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Fritz the Cat

Fritz the Cat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Sugar Bear (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it has undergone much improvement since its last FAC and should be ready for promotion. Sugar Bear (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• Comment—no dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 23:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• Sources: All sources look good, no issues here. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
• Image There is one image under fair use that contains the proper license and reasoning for use in this article. --Brad (talk) 04:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
• Support I'm not exactly familiar with sourcing articles with fictional subjects but all appears in order here. Refs are consistent, prose is good etc. --Brad (talk) 01:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments As a Crumb fan I feel obliged to review this article. I thought the prose was good and it was overall an enjoyable read. A few suggestions for consideration: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasata (talk • contribs)

• home made -> I thought this was supposed to be one word? Or is it hyphenated?
• "well known" needs hyphen
• "Robert Crumb cites Pogo as an influence on these early comics." Maybe add a few words about Pogo to give us some context
• link hedonistic
• I don't think the second quote in "Overview" is long enough to warrant a blockquote (according to MOS)
• "John Canaday describes the punch line …. as "outrageous brilliance …" so, what was the punch line?
• link American Greetings Co., LSD, serialized, Pitch (filmmaking)
• "Krantz sent Bakshi to San Francisco, where Bakshi stayed with Crumb and his wife, Dana, in an attempt to persuade Crumb to sign the contract. After a week, Crumb left, leaving the film's production status uncertain." I'm confused… Bakshi visited Crumb, but then Crumb left? Please clarify what Crumb left
• link power of attorney, misogynist, Dez Skinn
• "At Crumb's request, a 10-page story drawn in 1964 and previously published in R. Crumb's Comics and Stories in 1969 was excluded from this compilation." Any story behind this?
  • Only what is stated in the inner cover of that book. No explanation is given why the story is included. I could guess that it either had something to do with the quality of the artwork, which is somewhat lousy compared to other Fritz comics compiled in these two books (Complete and Life and Death), or that the story in question featured Fritz engaged in incest. (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC))
    • Maybe that incest bit should be mentioned, as it is typical of Fritz' behaviour. Sasata (talk) 18:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
• several citations to book sources do not have page #'s
  • Could you specify which ones? (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC))
    • Strike that. I can comment on the book sources:
      • The Complete Fritz the Cat: There is no page number for the introduction.
    • Other times, the book in general is cited as a reference for the book being published, and thus, these do not need page numbers. (Sugar Bear (talk) 22:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC))
• does ref #8 have an issue #?
  • "Head Comix" was a single comic book, without an issue number. (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC))
• After doing some more looking, I agree with the comments below, there should be more discussion of the characters in the strip, and more examples to give us insight into Fritz' character. A couple examples from a Google Book search: Sasata (talk) 18:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
• from here: Fritz attends New York University (but doesn't take any classes) … he "connects with radical hippies, causes a shooting, meets a biker rabbit, encounters activists with a penchant for making bombs."
• from here: ""Fritz the No-Good" shows a bunch of male animals tying up and abusing a girlfriend."

• Oppose and Comment - a large chunk of the article is given over to the animated film. That wouldn't be so bad except a) they already have their own articles and b) it is disproportionate to the coverage of the comics. I can't say I've read much of Crumb's stuff (though I would buy the collected works if I had plenty of spare cash) and so I looked forward to learning about this subject. I come away not having a great feel for the Fritz strips. One strip is described where Fritz disrobes a cat and then picks off her fleas, I'd welcome more in that vein so I get more of the flavour. I think the article's pretty good but I can't see myself supporting for featured status without a fair bit more work. It's badly failing Criteria 1(b) for me at the moment. --bodnotbod (talk) 16:48, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I added another description, of the "Girl Pigeon" comic which was praised in New York magazine, and trimmed the segments on the film. (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC))

• Comments
  • Any incurring characters besides Fritz?
  • Even I was left wanting for more in terms of information on the comic strips, summaries of stories from The Life & Death of Fritz the Cat and The Complete Fritz the Cat would be nice additions, giving a concrete idea about the wild adventures of Fritz
  • Images: IMO, images of Robert Crumb and Ralph Bakshi would be nice additions. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

• Added descriptions of Fritz comics and images of Crumb and Bakshi. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC))

The new examples like "Fritz the No-Good" and "10-page story, drawn in 1964" are certainly on the right track, but still wanting for more. IMO for comprehensiveness, elaborate sections like "Publication history" and "Fictional character biography" similar to Batman are needed. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

• Greatly reconstructed the article. I don't think there's anything else to add, unless I'm mistaken. (Sugar Bear (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC))

It is on the right track, but I still can't say it is a comprehensive article. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Right now, it's as comprehensive as an article for an underground comic can be. (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC))

Oppose and comments

• the film is mentioned disproportionately to the strip
  • I trimmed the section on the film some more, but even before I trimmed that section, there were two huge sections on the comics.
    • Half of the lead discusses the film.
      • The film is a major part of the strip's history. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC))
    • Now, there are three sections discussing the comics, while the film is discussed as part of the "impact" section. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
• the publication history is confusing > states Fritz made his first appearance in 1959, but the next paragraph states the first public appearance was in 1965
  • Moved. That was referring to unpublished comics that Crumb and his siblings drew in notepads when they were kids. The first published story was in 1965.
    • Somehow you have to explain how a strip that was published so infrequently became so well-known. Consider moving and tweaking the reprint information into publication information, because reprints are also publications.
      • Done. (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
        • Still not clear to a reader not familiar with the subject. Why did the particular strip become notable and a cult classic? The subject matter? Themes? Style of art?
          • This goes beyond what sources could provide for. The article explains everything that can be said about this strip. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

*information available on Help! would be useful > how often was it published; how often did it run the strip; why did it stop running the strip?

• • Help! ran the story twice. I rewrote to explain the magazine and its relation to Fritz the Cat. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC))

*The paragraph that begins with Crumb's experiences with LSD mentions that he created other characters, but doesn't explain how that is relevant, if at all, to the Fritz strip. In general the paragraph seems to lack cohesion

• • I removed the bit about Crumb's LSD experiences. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
• There's a mention of the type of pen used to create the strip but nothing else about Crumb's drawing style.
  • Added a short bit about the art style. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
    • Better, but still needs development if information is available in sources.
      • Nothing further can be provided from sources discussing the subject. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC))
      • There's nothing further I can add. (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
• Repetion. For example, mentions numerous times that Crumb began the strip with his siblings.
  • Cut repetitions. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC))

Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Check WP:ELLIPSIS for ellipsis usage - not sure the use of brackets is correct. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Done. (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
    • Please read here about ellipsis and brackets.
• Please check your sources for deadlinks. The retrieval dates are three years old.
• Check for MoS errors; a copyedit would help as well.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 11:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.