Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:31, 19 December 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette[edit]

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... a man who is a significant figure in the history of two nations. I'm sure you've heard of him.Wehwalt (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review: I'm dealing with this first – general review comments will follow.

  • Can you clarify the nature of the source in ref 1?
  • Ref 41 requires pp. not p.
  • Ref 80 requires a subscription
  • Ref 84 - format: why is the title repeated?
  • Ref 87: space after p.
  • Ref 125: ndash not hyphen required
  • Ref 143: format of page range inconsistent
  • Ref 183: retrieval date required
  • Ref 184 requires a subscription
  • Refs 194 and 195 could be combined
  • There needs to be consistency in the displaying of publisher locations for books. At the moment it seems to be about 50:50
  • The OCLC for the Charlemagne Tower book is 527765. I could not find the 1825 J & H Miller edition of the "Complete History" in WorldCat; the oldest version appears to be this
I've corrected that. The date "September 1825" also appears on the title page.
  • Any reason for the wikilink on some publishers, e.g. Bantam, Atheneum Books, but not others?
Not particularly. I inherited a mess on this and cleaned up the worst of it

Otherwise all sources look in good order, of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 21:45, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I think I got them all.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Crisco comments[edit]

I think I may have heard of him once or twice...

  • You seem to have a lot of duplicate links. Check
Is there an app for that?
  • fighting the Austrians - link the war?
Done.
  • an income of 25,000 livres - An income (monthly or whatever) or an inheritance?
Land and other property producing that income.
  • The young Lafayette, aged 14, seemed a good match to him for his 12-year-old daughter, Marie Adrienne Françoise, and he spoke to the boy's guardian - Perhaps "The young Lafayette, aged 14, seemed a good match for his 12-year-old daughter, Marie Adrienne Françoise, and the duc spoke to the boy's guardian"
OK
Metz, anyway.
  • Dragoons - Link?
  • The Continental Congress had been overwhelmed by French officers recruited by Deane, - La Fayette was not the only one who ignored orders? I thought the sending of such officers was cancelled
They may not have received the orders. As I understand it, they went to America by various means. The sending of officers by the French government was cancelled, for that time. Deane recruited others privately, obviously to excess, and had been doing so for months. Half of Europe was seeking military careers (and fast advancement) in the Continental Army. At least one source mentions that Lafayette was not on active duty at the time, he was in some sort of reserve. The technicalities of status of when ancien regime officers were required to do things is a little beyond my knowledge.
  • 4,800-livre gold-encrusted - is the price necessary?
I suppose not.
  • Georges-Washington Lafayette - why the hyphen, when that article doesn't have one?
On reconsideration, hyphen deleted.
  • Through the next years, Lafayette made his house, the Hôtel de La Fayette in Paris's rue de Bourbon, the headquarters of Americans there. - when did he return to France? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Rephrase to make it clear that it was a visit, that year only.
  • standardize: the King or the king
Got them all, I think.
  • Lafayette reluctantly leading them.- Why was he reluctant?
His troops supported the march. Lafayette felt it was a violation of the soldiers' oath to king and country to march on the king's palace. But he could not persuade them of this. So he either leads them, or as Unger puts it, risks "mutiny and possibly, a useless death at the nearby lamppost".
  • for the mishap - I think this comes across as a little POV
Fixed.
  • They hired as agent a multilingual young physician from the Electorate of Hanover, Justus Erich Bollmann, who acquired an assistant, a South Carolinian medical student named Francis Kinloch Huger, son of the Benjamin Huger, whom Lafayette had stayed with upon his first arrival in America. - That's a lot of clauses and parentheticals. Could it be simplified?
  • What happened to Bollmann and Huger?
They were also captured, separately from Lafayette, and held for a few months while the Austrians conducted a very detailed investigation, mostly aimed at whether members of the unit guarding Lafayette had been complicit or just careless. The verdict was just careless. One soldier was cashiered. Bollman and Huger were eventually deported from Austria. Huger returned to the US and greeted Lafayette in 1825. There's a surprisingly interesting book I drew heavily from for this section.
  • If possible, I'd include this as a footnote. Other readers may have the same question. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Added.
  • In March 1825, Lafayette began to tour the southern and western states (and following). - How did Lafayette respond to this? Did he consider it undemocratic as well?
If he did, he suppressed it. Lafayette wasn't always consistent.
  • "Lafayette, we are here" - per WP:EGG I don't think we should have a link here
  • In 2002, Congress voted to grant Lafayette honorary citizenship. - Why though? Wasn't he already an honorary citizen? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:50, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The news coverage from that doesn't seem to mention the various grants of citizenship by the states. My guess is they either didn't do their homework or ignored the memo from their staff and waved the flag happily. Thanks for the review.
I've got most of yours, but some of the early ones I'm still working on. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now I think I've got everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:19, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Excellent article on an important historical figure. I'm sure a lot of Americans wouldn't have recognized the full extent of Lafayette's international impact, so this article does well to educate them. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:52, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you indeed for the review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:40, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • "19th century depiction" -> "19th-century depiction" (check for other MOS errors)
  • As France does not have freedom of panorama, all French buildings and sculptures must include the licensing status of the original work as well as the photo
  • File:Woundedatbrandywine.jpg needs a US PD tag, and what does the original source say about its provenance and authorship? Same with File:Marquis_de_Lafayette_2.jpg
  • File:Barren-hill-map.jpg needs a US PD tag; same with File:Washington_and_Lafayette_at_Mount_Vernon,_1784_by_Rossiter_and_Mignot,_1859.jpg, File:Lafayette_1825.png, File:La_Fayette_et_Louis-Philippe_-_31_juillet_1830.jpg, File:Mort_du_général_Lafayette.jpg
  • File:Le_serment_de_La_Fayette_a_la_fete_de_la_Federation_14_July_1790_French_School_18th_century.jpg: reproduction of 2D work doesn't warrant PD-self
  • File:Lafayette-scheffer.jpg: if Scheffer is the artist, how is this PD-USGov? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I think I've got them all.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Lafayette is not widely known in the UK (we are quite insular about other nations' heroes) and although I knew a little about him I found this article admirably educative. I did a long A-class review here, and I think all my main concerns were addressed there. A few issues on sources to be resolved (see above) but these can easily be fixed and are not reasons for withholding support. Brianboulton (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reviews and support.--18:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Support – the following minor prose quibbles and a single reservation about the length of one section notwithstanding.

  • Early life
    • "left the marquis title to his brother Michel" – this reads as though he chose to leave Michel the title, rather than its being a matter of entail over which he had no control.
    • "The comte enrolled the boy" – I had to check back to be sure this count is great-grandfather de La Rivière
Both clarified.
    • "presenting himself to King Louis" – in what way presenting?
He would ceremoniously march in to see the King every noontime to ask if the King had any orders and proudly convey to his commander that the King had no orders, which was invariably the case.
  • Departure from France
    • Image caption – "diner of Metz" is a touch Franglais: either the "of" should be in French or the "diner" in English, I'd say. As it is, the diner of Metz suggests a fast-food restaurant.
Cut.
    • "Charles Gravier, Comte de Vergennes" – I don't think we'd normally give surname as well as title for a member of the supporting cast such as Vergennes.
Sliced.
    • "exact revenge against England" – Britain, please.
Enlarged.
  • Barren Hill, Monmouth and Rhode Island
    • "Lord Howe" – is this the same bloke as the Sir William Howe we met earlier? If so, those not familiar with the propensity of members of the British ruling class to change names, styles and titles may be confused. You could just call him Howe here, perhaps.
Cut.
    • "to go home on furlough" – not a noun I knew till now. Perhaps a blue link?
Change to "leave".
  • Hero of two worlds
    • "Although Washington demurred" – at emancipation rather than the purchase presumably, but it is ambiguous
Clarified
  • Assembly of Notables and Estates-General
    • "organized an armed mob" – can one organise a mob?
"led"
    • "Royal Army" – capitals wanted?
  • Retreat from politics
    • "The retired general remained relatively quiet" – this is the second "the retired general" in two paragraphs.
Reduced.
    • "crowned Emperor Napoleon I" – was he really styled "Napoleon I" at the time? (I don't know the answer, but seems unusual. For instance the English monarch we now call Elizabeth I was called just Queen Elizabeth until the accession of another sovereign of that name in 1952.)
Numerically deprived.
    • "the Emperor Napoleon's power" – perhaps just "Napoleon's"?
Untitled.
    • "Louis's government" – just ess-apostrophe, I think
S erased.
  • Grand tour of the United States
    • "The arts benefitted by his visit" – perhaps an EngVar thing, but I spell it "benefited", and so does the OED
Someone seems to have changed that.
    • "While traveling up the Ohio River by steamboat, Lafayette's vessel sank" – the syntax goes off the rails a bit here: I think you need "he was" after "While" to make it work, otherwise it's the vessel travelling by steamboat.
Done.
  • Final years and death
    • "Georges-Washington sprinkled upon him" – on his coffin, I assume
The source isn't clear. Perhaps not.
  • Assessment
    • "who they thought above such things" – would "whom" be insufferably pedantic?
Someone seems to have massaged that out.
    • "In 2002, Congress voted to grant Lafayette honorary citizenship" – have I missed something? Was the citizenship granted him in 1784 rescinded at some point?
See my answer to Crisco, above.

That's all from me. It is a very long article, but justifies its length, I think, except perhaps for the Grand tour of the United States section, which at 883 words – particularly as there is a dedicated article on the subject – I would like to see trimmed. That apart I enjoyed the article immensely and learnt a lot. Clearly headed for FA, and my reservation about the length of the one section is not strong enough to stop me supporting. – Tim riley talk 13:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll trim it a bit but am reluctant to go too far. This is his largest involvement with the English-speaking world after 1784 and the French politics may get dull.

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "His duties were mostly ceremonial ... but included marching in military parades,": The "but" implies that marching was something different from or more than ceremonial. I'm not following; that sounds ceremonial to me.
  • " the Seven Years' War (known in America as the French and Indian War)": I've heard that the international war was widely known as the Seven Years' War (including in America), but that the North American part of that war was called the French and Indian War.
  • "He met Deane, and persuaded him to include him despite his youth.": Don't use "him" to refer to different people in the same short sentence.
  • Down to Hero of two worlds so far. More coming this afternoon. - Dank (push to talk) 18:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. Very readable, and the pacing is great. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 02:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the review and supports. I've made those changes.

Support[edit]

Very readable, nice pace. Some minor glitches, which I tried to fix (revert if you'd like), and I did remove some extra links. Will finish and support later tonight or tomorrow. auntieruth (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Very nice job. I made some changes (minor) to the last few sections, which were the roughest of the article, especially the historiography section. These are always the hardest to write.  ;) I haven't spot-checked sources, but I can so later today if someone hasn't done it already. auntieruth (talk) 16:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Lafayette has always been one of my favorite historical figures - so glad you decided to bring this up to snuff. Some small niggles:

  • Early life: nowhere does it say that his mother was the descendant of a comte. I assume that the comte referred to his her grandfather, but this should be made more clear.
I've done that.
  • Departure from France:
    • so both his in-laws and his uncle were de Noailles? How closely was Lafayette related to his wife?
He wasn't, as near as I can tell. I've clarified it was an uncle by marriage, his father-in-law's brother in fact
    • there were other officers on his ship. Where did they come from? Did he recruit them or just join up with them?
de Kalb (not mentioned in text but in a caption) was in it from the start, de Broglie recruited the others as part of his plot to eventually become a leader in America. This went nowhere, but 11 of his officers went with Lafayette, but the Continental Congress had no use for them, and they went back to France, not exactly happy. Only Lafayette and de Kalb were accepted. I felt all of this was too much of a sidelight in what was going to be a long article so I cut it to the bare minimum.

Note that I did not check images. Karanacs (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see you back. Thanks for the review and the support, will be back with answers soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:22, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, much clearer for me :) Karanacs (talk) 22:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad. Well, I think I've caught up now, other than trimming the section on his visit.
As that did not affect anyone's support for promotion, I'll let you look at it in your own time... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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