Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Great Gold Robbery/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 28 January 2023 [1].

Great Gold Robbery[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A fascinating tale this. A robbery in 1855 on a moving train which netted over £1 million in today's money. They nearly got away with it too, but one of the robbers did the financial dirty on his ex-girlfriend and their child and the long arm of the Peelers got them in the end. This was rewritten two and a half years ago and has matured well since then; it's also been through a recent PR for a further polish. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Happy to support. All my concerns were addressed in the PR. ~ HAL333 18:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks very much HAL333 for your comments there - and here, of course. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Like HAL333, above, I had my two penn'orth at PR. The article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 21:47, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks Tim, for your comments there and here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:24, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Vami[edit]

It may just be the size of the monitor, but this article seems too well-illustrated. The right side of the article is a near-constant stream of images and there is WP:SANDWICHing going on in "Immediate aftermath".

  • I've sorted the sandwiching by removing one of the images. - SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • They were joined by the two planners of the crime, Edward Agar, a professional career criminal, and William Pierce, a former employee of SER who had been dismissed for being a gambler. "Two" here is to me redundant; the previous sentence already says there were four heisters. I suggest: "They were joined by Edward Agar, a professional career criminal, and William Pierce, a former employee of SER who had been dismissed for gambling, who planned the crime."
  • I've gone for a variation (having "who planned the crime" at the end looks like it's just Pierce). - SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "police" is used 12 times in the article. How many times does it refer to a specific police force or organization?
  • Only twice do the sources point to the "railway police" (which we've pointed to in the text), with the rest too vague to identify a particular force, just a generic use of "police". If the repetition is an issue, I can go through the sources again to see if there are any references to "detectives" (or similar) rather than just "police"? - SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agar was questioned and turned Queen's evidence. This could do with explaining for readers who are not British or otherwise familiar with this turn of phrase.
  • I'll have a think on this - it's linked, but I appreciate it's not the most obvious of phrases to decipher. Any thoughts? - SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC) Done - SchroCat (talk) 10:18, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead by itself leaves me to wonder - was the gold ever recovered?
  • Annoyingly, none of sources say anything on the point. I presume not, but without a clear indication from the source, there's little clarification we can bring, unfortunately. SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Best regards. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:15, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Vami_IV. I'm pondering how to deal with one of the phrases, and there's another question in there for you too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link to guard's van should move into the first sentence of the second paragraph of #Background.
  • Over time he picked up information about the gold shipments to Paris, [...] Were the shipments secret? If so - and one could understand why - it would be valuable to make a note of it in #South Eastern Railway
  • There's no reference to it in the sources. (I suspect it was a semi-open secret - ie people knew it happened, but didn't know when or the details of the security involved). I've tweaked the sentence to say "detailed information", which may help people. - SchroCat (talk) 11:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • [Pierce] relayed his thoughts to Agar before the latter's visit to the US; The previous allusion to Agar's life outside to the UK is an unspecified amount of time in the US and Australia. When did Pierce and Agar meet, by the way?
  • I've added the timeframe for his absence (ten years), but there are no details of how they met. - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • [...] and met Pierce and Agar in a beer house on Tooley Street [...] An "in London" here would be valuable for non-British readers.
  • #Robbery is the only section with a date in it.
  • Other sections don't need the precision, so have month and year, rather than the specific day something happened. (There are a few dates in the Immediate aftermath, Legal process and Later sections too, where the specific date is of importance). - SchroCat (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • [...] but thought that as staff at Folkestone had not mentioned it, then there seemed no reason for them to worry. Recommend, for brevity, some approximation of "there was no cause for concern."
  • A reward of £300 was soon advertised in several newspapers. For information regarding the case?
  • There is a second link to the Old Baily in #Legal process.
  • The history of the robbery can be found in The First Great Train Robbery, written by David C. Hanrahan in 2011. Why is this supported by an article from 2003?
  • Time travel? (Typo on the source date - now corrected.) - SchroCat (talk) 11:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • [...] as a gentleman master criminal who eventually escapes. Escapes from...?
  • The robbery also featured as one of the themes in the mystery novel Kept by D. J. Taylor. When was Kept published?

Happy to Support. What a tale! –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 11:45, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Vami, that's very good of you! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:46, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Several of the images would benefit from being scaled up, particularly the map and the reward notice
  • What is Cruikshank's date of death?
  • File:Route_of_the_bullion_train_for_the_1855_Great_Gold_Robbery.png: what is the source of the route data used here?
  • File:Tester_Burgess_and_Agar_1855.jpg: source link is dead. (The tagging here might be useful for other images though). Nikkimaria (talk) 01:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done
  • Nothing definitive. Most sources have him fl. in 1880 with noting afterwards. (Some OR on an ancestry site suggests possibly 1907, but that could be a different Percy R Cruikshank). He was certainly born in 1817 (his father's DNB entry covers that), but there is no official reference to him after 1880 when we wrote a biography of his father. - SchroCat (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given this, I'd suggest adopting the tagging model from File:Tester_Burgess_and_Agar_1855.jpg rather than using a lifespan tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, thanks - Done on all of them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:28, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Nikkimaria, I'm much obliged, as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

  • "The line ran at 8:00 am, 11:30 am and 4:30 pm" - probably better to say "The service ran at 8:00 am, 11:30 am and 4:30 pm". A line doesn't really "run".....
  • "The agents who arranged the carriage of the gold, including collecting the bullion from the three companies and delivering it to London Bridge were" - comma needed after Bridge
  • "Agar drank in the Rose Inn, a public house to the pier" - feels like there's a word missing here ("a pub to the pier" doesn't seem to make sense). Was it actually on the pier?
  • "telling friends he had won the capital by betting on Saucebox in the St Leger Stakes at long odds" - maybe clarify that this was a horse race? Great name for the horse, BTW :-)
  • Think that's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - great work, and nice to read about something (albeit something criminal) that happened in my old stomping ground (I grew up in Kent and visited Folkestone quite often as a child) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Chris - that's very good of you. It's an interesting story - no wonder they made a film about it! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Guerillero[edit]

The article is fascinating. I will do a source review on sunday. I don't see a need to do spotchecks --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 14:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Bankers' Magazine, and Journal of the Money Market looks more like a bound academic journal to me rather than a book. XVII is the volume, not the edition. At least cite the chapter/article name
  • Google books suggests that Percy Cruikshank might be an author for A Full Report of the Great Gold Robbery.
  • He was an illustrator, not a writer, so I'm not sure on this - I'll have a look at what other sources say. - SchroCat (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources seem to be mixed and contradictory (Another Google reference shows him only as the illustrator), but there are others that list him as the author, so I'll have to include him (even though I'm not convinced!) - SchroCat (talk) 13:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Griffiths 1899 I would move the volume number to the volume field, since it isn't part of the printed book title
  • For Storey 2007, I would write out the county name. Unlike US states, there is no consensus short version
  • For your 1800s newspaper sources, how did you access them? Can you provide a link or database name in the via field if they came from a digital database.
  • This was at the British Library. - SchroCat (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand what you are using the LOC card catalog for, but would it be possible to use a newspaper article to do the same thing. The link doesn't work for me and I have an uneasy feeling about using semi-published sources for these kinds of facts. See also my long-term objections to pop culture articles using retailers and streaming services for dates.
  • I would have thought the LOC would - like the British Library - be one of the higher-value sources that could be used, but I'll search for an alternative. - SchroCat (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC) Newspaper source added - SchroCat (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Old Bailey Proceedings, would it make more sense to cite the scanned book with pages and such and provide a link to the webpage where the text is digitized?
  • That's not as easy as it sounds... The site gives a background to the documents they worked from. Proceedings were published ten to twelve times a year, so although there is some information about the original source, the full details for this specific entry are not available. - SchroCat (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

--Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Guerillero, I'll do a little more digging on the Cruikshank matter. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Guerillero - all not sorted. Thanks for your thoughts and work on this. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Support based on my source review -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry[edit]

  • I would make the source of the lead image clear in the caption; the current caption makes it sound like a photograph but it's obviously not a contemporary image but an artist's impression
  • Testify, witness, patent, alibi, betting shop are probably not necessary links; the average English speaker probably has enough idea of what those terms mean to understand this article.
  • no individual could hold two keys at the same time → could hold both keys?
  • Should the SER not take a definite article? (I know some people have violently strong opinions about the word "the" so please ignore me if you're one of them)
  • No, happy to use it. It was inconsistently applied anyway. - SchroCat (talk) 11:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately for the conspirators is editorialising
  • Tester was able to smuggle them out of the office briefly You haven't explicitly said above that Tester was involved with the plot
  • It's in the Planning section ("It was at this stage that Pierce recruited Burgess and Tester to join the group") - SchroCat (talk) 11:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • while the bag containing some of the gold was handed to Tester active voice would be preferable here. Ditto 'After the train left Redhill the other two boxes were examined.
  • threw the keys and tools into the English Channel surely just "the sea" would suffice here?
  • Footnote m feels like trivia
  • Was Tester's dismissal anything to do with the robbery? Probably worth specifying, even if it's unrelated.
  • He wasn't dismissed - we've got "That September he left the SER and became the general manager of a Swedish railway company" to explain his leaving - do you think it needs more? - SchroCat (talk) 11:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I meant his dismissal from the Swedish railway company. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah - of course - sorry: put that down to Saturday dopiness. It's not reported in the sources. There's some speculation, but nothing that looks good enough to use. - SchroCat (talk) 17:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • A subsequent feature film based on the novel Arguably not an incorrect use of "subsequently" but "later" would do.
  • Worth a link to Great Train Robbery (1963)? Was there any renewed interest in this event after that robbery?

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks - that's very good of you indeed. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and comments from Jim[edit]

A fascinating article, particularly as I've been to London Bridge, Folkestone, Boulogne and the Gare du Nord at various times. Happy to support, but a couple of comments to show I've read it Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • a tidal ferry service — how did this differ from the links to the scheduled sailings to Boulogne? Was it to somewhere else?
  • It was also to Boulogne, but the schedule varied for the tide on this one. - SchroCat (talk) 11:15, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cambridge Villa. is mentioned several times, can we get a bit more idea where it was?
  • Yep - Shepherd's Bush: now added. - SchroCat (talk) 11:15, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • American gold Eagles... American Eagles In its own article, the $10 coin involved in the robbery is lc gold eagle, perhaps there has been confusion with the bullion American Gold Eagle where both words are capped? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll look into this one. I originally had this at a different value until someone changed it, pointing to our own article. I'll have to go back to the sources to see exactly which coins were present. Thanks for your thoughts and comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:15, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Jim, so we're saying that it looks correct as expressed in this article at the moment? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Jim - I’ve been going over the sources, but there’s not much in the way of clarity, so I’m glad you’ve found the answer! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC).[reply]
  • Thanks Jim, now decapped, per the MOS. Cheers. - SchroCat (talk) 14:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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