Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gumbo/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 12:07, 15 July 2011 [1].

Gumbo[edit]

Gumbo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk) 15:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to commit myself to editing again in a big way. :) One day last year I was hungry and chose to rework the article on the particular food I was craving. Gumbo is more than just something to fill your belly. In my family, there were few major events, holidays, illnesses or family gatherings that did not include this dish. There are millions of varieties of gumbo - I can often identify the occasion simply by seeing which particular ingredients my grandmother threw in the pot that day (shrimp and crab on Christmas Eve, crawfish and oysters on Memorial Day, chicken - no sausage - on my birthday, etc). Two Cajun cooks can argue for hours (or days) on the best way to make gumbo. The only thing they'll agree on is that it must be served on top of rice and you must also provide potato salad and beer. Lots of beer.

I've deliberately chosen not to consult popular cookbooks but to stay with more scholarly sources. User:Jappalang provided very useful feedback at the peer review in September.

Bon appetit, cher. Karanacs (talk) 15:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why not include both editors for Davidson refs?
  • No bibliographic info for Theriot 2009
  • ref 12: should include page number(s). Nikkimaria (talk) 17:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Nikki, obviously it's been too long since I did one of those checks. I've fixed those three issues. Karanacs (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Support consider everything stricken below; I've just reread the article and I think it meets the FAC criteria. Sasata (talk) 04:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Comments by Sasata[reply]

  • lead: link Choctaw
  • "vegetables are cooked down" what does this mean? The liquid is reduced?
  • "The dish boils for a minimum of three hours" Would "simmers" be more accurate?
  • I don't think rice is a high-value link for the lead; "greens" would probably be less familiar to the average reader.
  • link etymology
  • "…filé, or ground sassafras…" does this refer to sassafras root or leaves or …?
  • Can we have a citation for the first quote?
  • why is the okra picture so small?
  • second link to sassafras not required; cayenne pepper, callaloo, and thyme should be linked earlier
  • translate potage aux herbes
  • link metaphor; Louisiana is linked too many times
  • "18th century Cajun practice" needs hyphen
  • link grits
  • "The use of corn and filé powder, may imply that the dish was derived from native cuisine." lose comma
  • Dr. John Sibley -> I believe the MoS says not to use Dr.
  • "when Chef Paul Prudhomme's popularity" should chef be capitalized?
  • link tureen; "… although in wealthier or fancier homes the dish might be transferred to a tureen on the table." I doubt tureens are the exclusive domain of the rich or fancy; I have one, and consider myself neither!
  • 3 feet (0.91 m) deep; 2 feet (0.61 m) -> one too many sigfigs in the metric conversion

Sasata (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, Sasata, but thank you so much for your comments. I've fixed everything but the following:
  • "cooked down" - this means the veggies essentially turn to mush. I'm not sure a better way to word this - most cookbooks use this phrase and it's really common on Google.
  • By the first quote, do you mean the quotebox? The book and the page number are listed there.
  • My family has tureens too, and we serve soups in them, but never gumbo. Gotta be high in the instep to eat your gumbo that way ;)
  • I think the translation of potage is "potage". I didn't think it was necessary to say potage aux herbes (pottage with herbs), but I can.
Karanacs (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media: One problem- File:Zherbes.jpg is available in a larger format on Flickr as all rights reserved. Judging from the usernames, it's probably the same person, so nothing sinister going on, but we're gonna need an OTRS ticket, I reckon. I've fired off an email to the Flickr user just double checking. J Milburn (talk) 12:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Got a reply- forwarded the email to OTRS. Everything checks out. J Milburn (talk) 15:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much, J Milburn! That was really helpful and above and beyond the call of reviewer duty. :) Karanacs (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Before I begin, allow me a moment to offer a huge bucket of win to Karanacs for working on this article. Wikipedia desperately needs more Food and Drink FAs, and I can't imagine how hard it was to put in the time for this while also juggling the duties of FAC delegation. Good shit. Anywho, let's see what I kind of trouble I can rustle up: I've moved the bulk of my review to the talk page to avoid clutter.

  • For some reason, Social aspects seems like an odd section title to me. How about Culture or In culture instead?
"Culture" always seemed to me to indicate that we'd be talking about other aspects, like literature or media references/influences. I am not that fond of "Social aspects" either, but the theme of the section is that gumbo is a dish for social gatherings. I'll think about it overnight and see if I can come up with something better. Karanacs (talk) 04:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stay tuned, there's more to come I like bagels! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cryptic, and my apologies for the delay in responding. I fixed the first two wording issues.

Taking a read through.

  • The "main ingredients" list seems to use unwarranted capitals and bold text
  • Sassafras would be worth linking to somewhere
  • Overuse is as bad as underuse, bear the comments about italicising non-English words. Your call.
  • "ham or crabmeat are occasionally" "is", I think. If it was "and", it would be "are".
  • "fostered an environment where cultures" in which?
  • "In 1721, 125 Germans settled 40 miles (64 km) in New Orleans." What does this mean?
  • I agree with Sasata about providing a translation of "potage aux herbes". "Pottage" is not the most familiar term anyway- a link wouldn't hurt.

Very interesting and readable. I think you made a good choice avoiding cookbooks and sticking to more scholarly sources, though I must say the dish itself doesn't sound all that pleasant. J Milburn (talk) 09:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it sounds fantastic, and potage is the French word for soup, a perfectly familiar term to us Europeans. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 00:48, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review J Milburn (and thank you for the ce efforts, Malleus). I fixed all the issues you listed (and translated potage to soup). I went through and think I've now only italicized foreign words used as words (like kombo) and not foreign dishes. Gumbo has a very strong flavor and tends to be very spicy - a lot of my Yankee and European friends don't like it (although one of my Swedish friends can eat more than I can). Karanacs (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I've just given the article another quick look-through, and I'm happy that it now meets the featured article criteria. J Milburn (talk) 10:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I linked Bell pepper since it's not called that this side of the pond. I wondered whether to link hog, since that's unusual now in the UK, but it's obvious enough
  • The dish is the official cuisine of the state of Louisiana — Can a single dish be a cuisine?
  • rice seed — reads oddly, it's what we normally call "rice"
  • Thanks for the review, Jim. I've fixed "rice seed" - my brain must have been asleep. What do you call "bell pepper"? I didn't know it had another name. I agree with you about a dish not being a cuisine, but apparently the state legislators didn't know that [2]. Karanacs (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Usually "Sweet pepper" as opposed to chilli [sic] pepper. It's like coriander/cilantro or courgette/zucchini; same thing, different name. I say tomato... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:35, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Support Comments - I'll read over and copyedit as I go - comments and queries below. Revert if I guff the meaning. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It consists primarily of a strong stock,... - you mean strongly-flavoured?
In the Etymology section, are there any analogs or very similar recipies in other cultures with different names? Might be worth a line or two here.
Gumbo cooks for a minimum of three hours and is often simmered all day -? I'd reverse the active/passive to "Gumbo is cooked for a minimum of three hours and often simmers all day" (or "often let simmer all day")

Otherwise looking very appetising...Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:30, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cas, for the review. I've made the 2 cosmetic changes you mentioned - thank you. There are a few other dishes that are slightly similar; these are mentioned in the origin section. I don't have any sources that specifically compare and contrast them, so I could say "Gumbo bears similarities to the Caribbean dish callaloo and French bouillabaisse", but that's as far as I can go. Karanacs (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments. I've never had gumbo, but that bowl of shrimp gumbo in the lead has my mouth watering. A few comments:
  • The lead says that there are "several" different varieties of gumbo, yet lists only two. And later in Cajun vs Creole section it says that there are commonly considered to be only two varieties. As a matter of interest, is there any reason why beef and pork are rarely used?
  • The Background section says that "Colonization of the French colony Louisiana began in 1718". Obviously there's at least one word too many there. What about something like "The French colonization of Louisiana began in 1718"?
  • "Traditionally, okra and filé powder are not used at the same time". I guess you mean that they're not used in the same dish, as opposed to added simultaneously during cooking?
  • "In 1721, 125 Germans settled 40 miles (64 km) in New Orleans." Not sure what that means. Forty square miles of New Orleans?
  • "The new laborers introduced new foods, including the African vegetable okra, and hot pepper plants, which were traced to Haiti." What does "traced to Haiti" mean? Sourced from Haiti? Brought from Haiti? Later researchers discovered that's where they'd come from?
  • "Louisiana became a United States state in 1812." That "States state" is rather awkward.
  • "Bienville's housekeeper, Madame Langlois, taught the women how to improve the basic gumbo, using okra, which they had learned from their slaves." Who is the "they" being referred to here? The subject seems to be Mme Langlois.

Malleus Fatuorum 04:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Malleus, and thanks for the copyedit. I've fixed the wording issues. I have no idea why beef and pork aren't used - none of the sources addressed that, and it was just one of those facts of life when I was a kid. I suspect that beef and pork were more easily dried and preserved and gumbo instead used meat that would spoil more quickly, but nothing solid I can use in the article.
I'm unsure how to handle the "varieties" issue. Some people say the varieties are Cajun, Creole, and gumbo z'herbes. Some say it's seafood vs chicken. Others say it's okra vs file vs roux. Karanacs (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC) PS If you ever make it to Texas I'll make chicken Cajun gumbo with roux for you - it's the only kind I eat. Karanacs (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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