Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horseshoe bat/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 17 August 2020 [1].

Horseshoe bat[edit]

Nominator(s): Enwebb (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a family of bats that have been quite relevant in the news lately as the possible origin of SARS-CoV. They have a lot of diversity and some strange features, even for bats (pubic nipples!) Enwebb (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sainsf[edit]

This is a placeholder for now, I will add all my comments next week. I find the article really interesting and beautiful after reading a few paragraphs here and there. Thank you for your work on this important topic :) Sainsf (t · c) 10:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay this is my first set of comments, will add more as we move forward:

  • There are quite a few duplicate links, you can find them using this script. Link the terms only on their first mention (unless it is a link in the cladogram or captions).
    • I have the script enabled and I'm not seeing the duplinks? I intentionally duplicated links between captions and the body, as well as between the body and the lead, as these are established exceptions. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can see around five of them like "Afrotropical realm" in Evolutionary history. Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've fixed all the ones that I see. If your script is highlighting ones that mine is not, feel free to remove. Enwebb (talk) 01:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Okay so with that gone, "SARS-related coronaviruses" and "least horseshoe bat" show up as duplinks in Relationship to humans but I am not sure if we should remove them as repetition might help here. Anyway, not a big deal. Sainsf (t · c) 13:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • closely related to the Hipposideridae It may be helpful to mention the common name of this family of bats for a lay-reader, as you do for Hipposideros later.
  • combined head and body lengths isn't "combined" redundant when you say head and body length?
    • I think the distinction is that it's lengths, not length, implying two separate measurements are being added together. I've rephrased. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looks good. Remember to fix the mention in the body as well ("Individuals have a head and body length") Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • What I was trying to convey earlier is that I don't think it's inaccurate to say "combined head and body lengths" (there are two lengths added together) and also "individuals have a head and body length". Is the meaning unclear when I say individuals have a head and body length of x? I feel that's pretty straight-forward. Enwebb (talk) 01:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Oh no, it sounds fine. I suggested making both descriptions consistent if you changed the phrasing in the lead. Sainsf (t · c) 13:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can link subgenera, biogeography, taxonomy, Old World, subtropical, echolocation, polygynous, and gestation in the lead (and on the first mention of these terms in the main body). Just terms that I think might not be common in a common person's life. And maybe link Southeast Asia as well if you are linking another geographical region like Sub Saharan Africa.
  • Fur can be reddish-brown...smooth fur "fur" is repeated in this line, maybe we can say "The fur, long and smooth in most species, can be reddish-brown, blackish, or bright orange-red".
    • Thank you for the suggestion, changed. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What exactly is a "high-duty call"?
  • A minor quibble.. you can be consistent in whether you include a brief introduction for people. For example, Gray and several others are not introduced like Lacépède ("French naturalist") and Bell.
  • In Taxonomic history link superfamily and maybe Oriental as well. Any link or short explanation for "species group"?
    • Added links and an explanation of species groups and links. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The most recent common ancestor of Rhinolophus You may want to add "most recent" to the mention in the lead.
  • In Evolutionary history link geological time periods like Eocene, R. nippon and maybe Afrotropics. "Sister" can be linked to sister taxon. No link for nuclear DNA?
    • Not sure if R. nippon is widely recognized as a full species. The 2019 authors considered it separate, but NCBI and ITIS recognize it as a subspecies of the greater horseshoe bat. I supposed I could create it as a redirect? Added more links. Enwebb (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah a redirect might be a good idea. Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • were more closely related to African species Why "were"? These species are still around.

Moving on (note the underlined point above which might have escaped your notice), Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Link genetic divergence in Evolutionary history
  • represented by one species, Palaeonycteris robustus.[14] Palaeonycteris robustus On the second mention of the species you can just say P. robustus
    • In my academic experience, you don't start a sentence with a genus abbreviation, which is echoed here "With scientific names, it is common to abbreviate the genus to its first letter after the first mention so long as only one genus is being represented (Aspergillus niger at first mention and A. niger thereafter, for example). However, it is better to spell out the genus in full at the beginning of a sentence". Enwebb (talk) 03:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh yes, thanks for pointing it out. Sainsf (t · c) 13:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ranging from 35–110 mm "35 to 110"
    • Revised phrasing so that I can keep the cvt template. Enwebb (talk) 03:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • bright orange-red dorsal fur 'Dorsal' may be tough to understand for lay readers, maybe something like underfur works? Or a link would be helpful. Similarly for "anterior" in "anterior portion of the nose-leaf", "rostral" in "rostral inflations".
  • In Description link mammary gland, premolar, canine teeth, echolocate, digit, cartilaginous. You can add a lot of helpful links in the line "Several bones in their thoraxes are fused—the presternum, first rib, partial second rib, seventh cervical vertebra, first thoracic vertebra". Link nose-lead in the caption
  • As you will link echolocate in the previous section, omit the link in "they use echolocation to navigate"
  • Say either "high duty" or "high-duty"
  • embryonic development, meaning that growth of the embryo Link embryo in "embryonic" only
  • if the female enters torpor It would be good to add a few words on torpor as this behavior is not covered in the article anywhere, but seems significant enough to have a short description.
    • Added info on torpor and hibernation. Enwebb (talk) 23:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Individuals hunt solitarily.[17] Because its hind limbs are poorly developed, If the earlier line refers to the bats in plural, the next line should say "their" not "its"
  • In Biology and ecology you can link frequency modulated, second harmonic, first harmonic, uropatagia, diurnal avian predator (each of these words can be linked), temperate, torpor, sociality
    • Uropatagium already linked at 1st occurrence in description#post crania; to avoid a sea of blue, I just put "day-active birds" after diurnal avian and wl predator. The only think really linkable for first and second harmonic is Animal_echolocation#Harmonic_composition, which is pretty much garbage. Enwebb (talk) 23:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Range and habitat link hibernate
    • Added link to first occurrence, which is in reproduction and life cycle subsection. Enwebb (talk) 15:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will add my comments on the last section in a few days. Cheers, Sainsf (t · c) 11:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Hill's horseshoe bat" is a disambig link
  • Scientific name for Ruwenzori horseshoe bat like the others in the sentence?
    • At the first occurrence of a species, I both link it and put its sci name in parenthesis. After that, I do not include sci name. Enwebb (talk) 15:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other than this I think everything is perfect in the prose. You may wish to add a link to the Wikispecies entry (if any) or some external links if you wish but none of it is necessary.

That is all from me. Once again, marvelous work! Respond whenever you are free. Cheers and stay safe, Sainsf (t · c) 13:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, all the points I made have been addressed properly. I am confident the prose meets FA standards. Supporting :) (forgot to state this earlier.. I will be listing this in my WikiCup submissions) Sainsf (t · c) 15:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Chiswick Chap[edit]

Since I reviewed the article at GA, the principal changes have been in citation formatting. I believe the article gives an excellent overview of the family, its ecology, and its relationships to humans including its hosting of coronaviruses. I therefore have little to add just now, though the cladogram could include a cropped photograph of Craseonycteridae, and it might be helpful to pop in a sublabel below Yangochiroptera saying "(most microbats)". Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finally giving me the motivation to hunt down a good picture of the Kitti's hog-nosed bat. I've never been happy with the sparse media files we've had for it, and we now finally have a real photograph! I added in the sublabel you suggested. Thanks, Enwebb (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest scaling up the maxilla image
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Palaeonycteris_robustus.png: what is the author's date of death? Same with File:Rhinonicteris_aurantia.jpg, File:Rhinolophidae_vs_molossidae.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Palaeonycteris_robustus.png: the illustrator of the specific plate is not stated (I don't think, at least, but I don't read French), but the authors of Annales des sciences geologiques were Edmond Hébert (d. 1890) and Alphonse Milne-Edwards (d. 1900)
  • Rhinonicteris aurantia.jpg: this came from Catalogue of the Chiroptera in the Collection of the British Museum (1878), author George Edward Dobson (d. 1895)
  • Rhinolophidae_vs_molossidae.png: is an amalgamation of two images. The illustrator of the top image was Philibert Charles Berjeau (d. 1927). The name on the plate for the bottom image is "Bruch". I would guess Carl Friedrich Bruch (d. 1857) was the illustrator; his older brother Philipp Bruch (d. 1847) was also a scientist, but studied mosses, not animals
  • Suggest adding all these findings to their respective image description pages. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the maxilla image, I increased from upright=1.5 to upright=2
  • Added alt text to images. Enwebb (talk) 21:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Nb: it is my intention to claim points for this review in the WikiCup.

  • "Internally, the horseshoe bats are divided into six subgenera and many species groups." I am not sure that "Internally" adds anything here.
  • "it is unclear where the geographic roots of the family are, and attempts to determine the biogeography of the family have been indecisive" 1. Is it possible to avoid having "family" twice in one sentence? 2. Optional: "indecisive" → 'inconclusive'.
  • "as well as species recognized as distinct that may, in fact" Delete "in fact"; a reader will nor assume that what you have written is not factual.
  • "high-duty calls". 1. Link to Duty cycle. 2. Consider changing to 'calls at high duty cycles'.
  • "as a source of disease and as food and traditional medicine" → 'as a source of disease, as food and as traditional medicine'.
  • "Sub-Saharan Africa" → 'sub-Saharan Africa'.
    • fixed
Still an instance of "Sub-". I have changed it.
  • "though they are now most often recognized as a separate family" needs a citation.
  • Link Eocene, Miocene, Oligocene and Pliocene.
  • Link biogeography in both the article and the lead.
  • Link Afrotropics to Afrotropical realm; unlink later "Afrotropical realm"
    • Done
  • "In a few species, males have a false nipple in each armpit." In a few species of horseshoe bats or of bats generally?
  • Link "anterior".
    • done
  • Is "with the teeth resorbed into the body" cited to Hermanson 1982?
  • Link "uropatagium" to Patagium.
    • Uropatagium is already linked to patagium (uropatagium is a redirect). Enwebb (talk) 21:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "sound production composes more than 30% of total time" Maybe 'they are producing sound more than 30% of the time'?
    • Thank you for the suggestion, changed. Enwebb (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that search for moving prey items in cluttered environments" I am not sure that it will be clear to readers what constitutes a cluttered environment. Perhaps a word or two of explanation?
  • "likely assist in focusing the emission of sound, reducing the effect of environmental clutter on sound" Would it be possible to rephrase to avoid "of sound ... on sound"?
  • "aiming the production of sound" I think you mean 'aiming the sound produced'.
  • "Horseshoe bats have sophisticated senses of hearing via well-developed cochlea". "via" → 'due to their' sounds more encyclopedic.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "though consume other arthropods like spiders". Suggest 'though they also consume other arthropods such as spiders'.
  • Link "substrate" to Substrate (biology).
  • "are average or lower than average" Is that compared with other bats?
    • Yes, added "Relative to all bats" at the beginning of this sentence. Enwebb (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most horseshoe bat species have average wing area" Likewise.
    • Added "Relative to all bats" at the beginning of these sentences to try to clarify. Enwebb (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they had the least attention of any bat family relative to their species diversity". Maybe 'they had received the least ...".
  • "This causes the interval between fertilization and birth to vary from two to three months" Should this be '... vary between two to three months'?
  • The "Coronaviruses" subsection is one long paragraph. Would it be possible to break it?
  • "The Newar people of Nepal "almost certainly" use horseshoe bats ..." MOS:QUOTEPOV states that "The source must be named in article text if the quotation is an opinion" - emphasis in original.

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment from Therapyisgood[edit]

Doing a quick search through the article, I am surprised the word "flea" or the word "ectoparasite" is not mentioned at least once. From my work on the Hectopsylla genus I am aware fleas often inhabit bats as a host. Though I am also not that familiar with editing articles on topics where every bit of knowledge isn't included. Can you comment on this? Is there any published material on their parasites? Therapyisgood (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Enwebb: I am curious if you are still actively pursuing this nom. Therapyisgood (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Therapyisgood thank you for your points! I had a major disruption IRL and will get back to this in earnest this upcoming week, including adding a section about parasites. Enwebb (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Content about predators and parasites added in a new subsection. Enwebb (talk) 01:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Therapyisgood if you would like to add more comments, please do so. I'm able to edit more regularly now. Enwebb (talk) 23:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some additional comments from Therapyisgood[edit]

I don't have the time to do a full review or anywhere near (which would be nice), but a quick readthrough gives me the impression something more should be mentioned on the species in Palaeonycteris discovered in France. At least a half-sentence more on its wingspan, anything really, how it was classified in the Horshoebat family, what that was based on, etc. It's prominent in the lead. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can create a stub or something for Palaeonycteris but really almost nothing is known about it. I wouldn't call it prominent in the lead, I just mention that it exists. Enwebb (talk) 04:15, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jens Lallensack[edit]

  • I wonder why the lemma is the family rather than the genus?
  • Maybe mention the number of species in the lead?
  • or bright orange-red – dot missing
  • The nose-leafs aid in echolocation; horseshoe bats have highly sophisticated echolocation – maybe combine to "which is highly sophisticated in horseshoe bats" as it reads a bit rough.
  • Verspertilionidae – typo?
    • Thank you, fixed
  • Csorba et al. in 2003 – would write "and colleagues" to avoid the very technical term.
  • Skull of the greater horseshoe bat, showing the prominent rostral inflations on the snout – do we need the "rostral"? They do not seem far rostral on the snout anyways judging from the picture?
    • It seems that it is consistently referred to as a "rostral inflation" in the literature. Enwebb (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The anterior portion of the nose-leaf – "front portion" to keep it simple?
  • The sella usually has less hair than the lancet or the nose-leaf. – but it was just stated that the sella is part of the nose leaf?
    • I actually removed this sentence because I realize I misread the source. Enwebb (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nose-leafs are important in species identification, and are composed of several parts. The lancet is triangular, pointed, and pocketed, and points up between the bats' eyes. The sella is a flat, ridge-like structure at the center of the nose, rising from behind the nostrils, that points out perpendicular from the head. – This leaves me wonder, which part does the horseshoe belong to, or was this part forgotten?
    • Rearranged and rephrased this part to make it clear that the horseshoe is one of the 3 parts (horseshoe, lancet, sella). Enwebb (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead, they use echolocation to navigate. Horseshoe bats have some of the most sophisticated echolocation of any bat group. – Maybe combine these two sentences into a single one since it reads a bit choppy.
  • The wingspans are typical for their body sizes, and their aspect ratios, which relate wingspan to wing area, are average or lower than average. – Do you compare with bats in general here? Not clear.
    • Yes, added the phrase "relative to all bats" at the beginning of these sentences to try to make this clearer. Enwebb (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rhinolophus sedulus, however, is a rare species of bat that is believed to be monogamous – you mean "is amongst the rare species of bat that are believed to be monogamous", or is it really a rare/endangered species?
    • Rephrased, I meant the former. Enwebb (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In hibernating species, the sperm storage timing coincides with hibernation – you mean the fertilization timing?
    • No, the storage of the sperm coincides with hibernation (they occur at the same time). Enwebb (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because its hind limbs are poorly developed, it cannot scuttle on flat surfaces nor climb adeptly like other bats. – in other parts of the article "their" was used.
  • for SARS-related coronaviruses (testing positive for antibodies associated with it) – "with them"?
  • The Newar people of Nepal "almost certainly" – is this a citation? Maybe just use "probably"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it's a quote. Pointed out about by GTM that in-text attribution needed for opinions, which I added. Enwebb (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Looks like this needs an image and source review? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ealdgyth See above for image review. Enwebb (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: how is the source review looking? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still an open question wrt FN56, and I've posted a request for input at WPMED for the COVID-19 material. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:47, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikki, Enwebb, are we further forward with what I understand to be these last outstanding points? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
FN56 is fine; see WPMED for discussion of the MEDRS question. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Where do we stand on this? --Ealdgyth (talk) 13:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The MED discussion has been archived; the only opinion provided was "The sources are rather old by MEDRS standards and reasonably good secondary sources, if not necessarily the highest quality. As the claims are not exceptional as in WP:REDFLAG, my inclination would be to accept them as sufficient quality, but someone with expertise in infectious diseases (i.e. not me) might disagree with my assessment." This was the only pending issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • I can't find any information about Alana Books - what kind of publisher is this?
    • It's considered an authoritative and foundational work for this family. The Journal of Mammalogy published a review of it here, saying in part "In general, I found this book to be so good as to perhaps be in a sense insidious. Most readers will merely head for the species-group key, refer to the illustrations, and leave it at that once they have more or less identified a specimen in their possession. Only by means of a vigilant examination will a reader see among the taxonomic remarks (or elsewhere) the wealth of research gems beautifully and carefully planted by Csorba". In Mammals of Africa, the authors state "The Rhinolophidae have been comprehensively reviewed by Csorba et al. (2003)." You can find more publications by Alana Books if you do an exact search for "Alana Books, Shropshire" or "Alana Books, Bishop's Castle". Enwebb (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fn5: if you're citing the web republication the citation should reflect that; if you're citing the original, this needs a page number. Ditto FN10
    • MSW3 has its own citation template. The citation is simply {{MSW3|id=13800444}}. Enwebb (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN13: does this have an ISBN?
  • FN19: Fauna of Australia is the work title; the given website title doesn't need to be included
  • FN44: this is an open-access publication; why bother with a ResearchGate link?
    • Rm URL, added doi-access=free to citation. Enwebb (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN45 is missing publisher
  • I don't feel the citations provided are strong enough to support the COVID-19 content - research in this area is far from settled at this point
    • Can you be specific as to which sources do not support which claims? I feel like I used very cautious language (Some evidence suggests that some species could be the natural reservoir of SARS-CoV-2, which causes coronavirus disease 2019.), which I believe is supported by the present literature. Furthermore, I believe that the relevant citations used in the article are all MEDRS. Enwebb (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nature is a work title
  • FN56: I can't verify this journal - what is its area and who is the publisher?
  • FN57 is misformatted. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is it? It looks how I intend it to. For IUCN advanced searches, you cannot retrieve a stable link to the search. So I cannot link to the IUCN advanced search where I have filtered "taxonomy" to equal "Rhinolophidae". I think it's reasonable to list "Taxonomy=Rhinolophidae" or "Taxonomy: Rhinolophidae" as the title of the webpage here. Enwebb (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • IUCN is not a work. Why are you pointing to a particular search, rather than a specific source? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:50, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • It supports this: As of 2020, the IUCN had evaluated 87 species of horseshoe bat. They have the following IUCN statuses:. What's the problem? Enwebb (talk) 18:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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