Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/International emergency medicine/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Ian Rose 04:19, 23 August 2013 [1].

International emergency medicine[edit]

Nominator(s): AmericanLemming (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a medium-length article with GA-status that I've put a lot of work into. The sourcing is top-notch, the prose is pretty good, and there are seven pictures, all from the public domain or under Creative Commons license. Having gone through two withering GA reviews, I feel that it's pretty close to FA status.

Note: This is my first FA nomination, and I've only been editing on Wikipedia since February, so there might be some nuances of Wikipedia that I haven't grasped yet. That being said, I am willing to learn and will make every effort to address comments as quickly as possible. AmericanLemming (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, 1a/2a. This could really benefit from a thorough peer review before coming here. As it stands now, the lead is choppy, with several one-sentence paragraphs, and I'm not sure that it's an adequate summary of the article body either. There's a bit to go before the prose is compelling, too. For example, in the "International emergency medicine" section (aside: I'm not sure there should be subsections that mirror the article name), "emergency medicine" appears 18 times in 3 paragraphs. I realize that, to some extent, frequent use of the phrase is unavoidable, but that density results in text that's notably repetitive and clunky to read. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. I've renamed the section "Beginning of the subspecialty" and have reduced the number of times "emergency medicine" occurs to 10. You'll have to let me know if that addresses your concern with that particular paragraph. As far as the lead goes, I think you are absolutely right. It does need a lot of work. To that end, I will start improving it. I now believe that I have significantly improved the lead (some 25 edits later, you would hope it would be a little better), though of course I am open to any additional comments you or anyone else has about it. AmericanLemming (talk) 21:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*Not done. I'm afraid that "There's a bit to go before the prose is compelling, too" doesn't really help me. As I said, it's pretty good. I understand that there is room for improvement, but I don't know where that is. Pointing out every specific example of where the prose needs help would be very helpful for me. However, I understand that would be a lot of work. At the very least, though, things like "You need better transitions," "You're too redundant everywhere," "The word emergency medicine is in the article 150 times," "The whole thing is too wordy," etc., would be more useful to me as the nominator. Thanks! AmericanLemming (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The FA criterion for prose quality is that it be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". In general, I don't think this is. I've tried to sketch out a few of the problems that leap out at me, below, but this really needs the thorough hand of a copy editor, and that's not my strongest skill here:
  • Passive voice is pervasive. You don't need to avoid it all the time, but there are plenty of uses here that actually leave the reader without knowledge of who the actor even is. "Moreover, several international emergency medicine conferences had been launched in the 1980s, and various national emergency medicine organizations began supporting the development of the specialty in other countries." What conferences? Who launched them? What "various" organziations? Or, this, from Definition: "However, that definition has also been criticized as oxymoronic given the international nature of medicine and the number of physicians working internationally." Whose criticism is this? (Also, I think I would avoid use of oxymoronic in general.)
  • Done. I believe that I've now addresses all specific instances you've brought up of where passive voice is a problem. Additionally, through putting the text into Word and searching for am, are, is, was, were, be, and been, I think that I have identified the five or six other cases where it is likewise confusing. I will seek to address these as well. I have addressed those five or six other cases, though you are certainly welcome to either bring them up again or point out instances that I've missed. AmericanLemming (talk) 20:15, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Information isn't always presented in a logical order. "In the United States, the high number of traffic and other accident fatalities in the 1960s spurred a white paper from the National Academy of Sciences; it exposed the inadequacy of the current emergency medical system and led to the establishment of modern emergency medical services." That's from the History section, but it's not from the sub-lead (which talks about the history of emergency medicine in general). Rather, it's in "Emergency medicine in the developing world"—and after we were told in the previous subsection that international emergency medicine was a creation of the 1990s.
  • Done. I deleted that sentence from "Emergency medicine in the developing world" because it already appears in the History of emergency medicine subsection and because it really doesn't belong in the "Emergency medicine in the developing world" section anyway. AmericanLemming (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Transferring knowledge" subsection spends a paragraph largely discussing the conference dates and locations for the International Conference on Emergency Medicine, held by International Federation for Emergency Medicine (IFEM). Why does this matter? Both the conference and the federation are redlinks, even. Honestly, with how much of the "Initiatives to expand emergency medicine" section is dedicated to IFEM, I think there's a real question about undue weight and, frankly, comprehensiveness.
  • Done. I've added a third paragraph that describes other international emergency medicine conferences. As far as the notability of IFEM/ICEM itself, it is rather important. Ref 4 calls the International Foundation for Emergency Medicine (the organization that plans and hosts the ICEM) "probably the most active, broad-based, international organization dealing with international EM development issues." Additionally, these sources from PubMed (which are not cited in the article) back me up: Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, and Source 4. I can add some more citations to that paragraph if you would like that. AmericanLemming (talk) 20:53, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a lot of sentences that just read awkwardly, and I'm not sure how else to say that. I already mentioned the one that uses oxymoronic. But also: "The experience of international emergency medicine in developing countries is in some ways the reciprocal of that of developed ones." (I don't think that's the word you want there.) "The motor vehicle saturation in Asia and Africa may be lower than in the West, but the higher rate of accident mortality per vehicle still leaves a potential need for improved emergency medical care." (Motor vehicle saturation is unnecessarily technical, and there's no need to equivocate with "may be".) "One notion present in emergency medical systems development is the idea of training the trainers." (Awkward wording in general, passive voice with no clear actor, poor lead-in to the paragraph on the topic.)
  • Done. I've taken care of these three sentences. I will reread the article to look for some other instances of awkward wording, but first I think I'll address your concern with the article's organization. AmericanLemming (talk) 20:59, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honestly, under closer examination, I think this is further away from meeting the criteria than I did on my first pass. I think there are 1b, 1c, and 2b concerns in addition to the prose quality issues. There's clearly a lot of work put into this, but I just don't believe it's ready for FAC. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Thank you for your comments. I'll see what I can do to address them. AmericanLemming (talk) 17:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Status of the review

I"ve now addressed all of your specific concerns, though you may disagree about some of them, and I'd be happy to discuss them with you or make further changes, should that be necessary. Besides for a general read through, I don't have anything else I can do to improve the article at this point.

However, before I begin doing so, I would like some clarification. You said "I just don't believe it's ready for FAC." Obviously, you meant that it's not yet ready for FA status, and I agree. But, what I'm not sure about is whether or not you implied that it's not even ready to be reviewed for FA status. If that's the case, then the review should be archived and I should two weeks (or more, potentially) working on improving the article on my own time. If not, then I'll begin proofreading the whole thing (and probably get some other eyes on it, too.), which will take a few hours if not more. I've now proofread the first half of the article the entire article, printed it out, and had someone else (not a Wikipedia editor) copy-edit the printed version. I'll be making those changes now. I've made those changes. AmericanLemming (talk) 04:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, as long as you are willing to continue the review and bring up issues, I will make every effort to address them. (I made 111 edits today and 150 total over the past two days.) Also, thanks for taking up the review so quickly (you posted your initial comments 42 minutes after I posted the FAN!) Your comments have kept me busy the past two days, but I think the article's a lot better for it. Rewriting the lead alone has made a huge difference in quality. AmericanLemming (talk) 04:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator requesting archive of nomination

I, as the nominator of this FAC, request that this nomination be archived. I have come to the conclusion that it does not meet criterion 1b, as it fails to mention international pediatric emergency medicine, the growth in the number of emergency medicine journals around the world, or any controversies about IEM. I do not have time to address these deficiencies in a timely matter, so I think it would be best for the nomination to be withdrawn, giving me the opportunity to make these needed additions at my own pace. Thank you. AmericanLemming (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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